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Tass
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 2:44 pm

bigsi111 said:

If I was teaching anyone to programme the machine, I'd disable web access and get them to programme a simple database application storing names, addresses and phone numbers.  Then maybe bat and ball for a good fun game and so on.
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ArborealSeer
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 2:48 pm

You can"t control what these journo"s write though. like anyone they see selective parts of the whole.

On the internet its even worse with all these unpaid "tech writers" ripping off stories and regurgitating the same mistakes.

In short. the easy answer is to realise thats how the world works, especially online and "suck it up", otherwise it"'d drive you crazy.

p.s. i"m massively disappointed/sickended by all those that replied with the "I deserve one more than you" attitude at this stage. especially from a mod like jessie who should know better by now. (no i don"t have one yet either). seemed a bit like a "me too" group beat down at one point.
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bigsi111
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 2:56 pm

Tass said:


bigsi111 said:


If I was teaching anyone to programme the machine, I'd disable web access and get them to programme a simple database application storing names, addresses and phone numbers.  Then maybe bat and ball for a good fun game and so on.


Bring on the Model A!!



You'll never replace the horse!

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 3:42 pm

Dave_G_2 said:


Perhaps it has been mentioned before, perhaps not, but surely the way to "educate" potential new users would be to have some kind of table showing comparisons between say an "average" computer with Windows and how long it takes to say complete loading a page on a website such as BBC, time taken to start a spreadsheet or letter, etc etc

The same repeated for a PC running MacOS and yet another column showing the time taken for the RASPI to do the same tasks.

Obviously the apps would be completely different but for most people, a text document is a text document is a text document, whether it"s opened with Word, OpenOffice or Geany.

Same goes for browsing the web and other tasks.

As long as the specs of each computer are given along with the apps used then it would be a meaningful comparison/s and certainly more understandable to the average person then some obscure benchmark tests and quoting mega or giga flops.


Blimey - 7 pages of comments, and someone has come up with an idea I think would work! I'll have a chat with Liz to see if we can knock something up. Although maybe just stick in it on the Wiki.
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 3:57 pm

JamesH said:


Blimey - 7 pages of comments, and someone has come up with an idea I think would work! I'll have a chat with Liz to see if we can knock something up. Although maybe just stick in it on the Wiki.


You think?

People manages to avoid the info about it being a pre-production or developer release in almost everywhere you put it, and you think they are going to find a table about its performance on the wiki?

Not that I am saying it is a bad idea, just that the people who are likely to complain are unlikely to read it. Especially as to buy one you need to go through farnel or RS, and don't even need to know this website is here.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 5:35 pm

JamesH said:


Dave_G_2 said:


Perhaps it has been mentioned before, perhaps not, but surely the way to "educate" potential new users would be to have some kind of table showing comparisons between say an "average" computer with Windows and how long it takes to say complete loading a page on a website such as BBC, time taken to start a spreadsheet or letter, etc etc

The same repeated for a PC running MacOS and yet another column showing the time taken for the RASPI to do the same tasks.

Obviously the apps would be completely different but for most people, a text document is a text document is a text document, whether it"s opened with Word, OpenOffice or Geany.

Same goes for browsing the web and other tasks.

As long as the specs of each computer are given along with the apps used then it would be a meaningful comparison/s and certainly more understandable to the average person then some obscure benchmark tests and quoting mega or giga flops.


Blimey - 7 pages of comments, and someone has come up with an idea I think would work! I'll have a chat with Liz to see if we can knock something up. Although maybe just stick in it on the Wiki.



I was thinking more along the lines of a quick table of what it is good at, moderate at, and sucks at. Like the usual sales pitch for software with many versions - ie, task followed by a tick under a capability heading. This of course for the FAQ page with a link to more detailed specs/benchmarks on the wiki.

I also feel* there should be a 'common complaints' list somewhere to give folks an idea of what should be fixed first by popular demand. Just ideas mind.

As for the folks saying X deserves one more than you! My personal opinion is that the founders, 'Gerts' and moderators all deserve priority access to a Pi, but note this is just my opinion.

As for the folks saying I deserve one less than others! Don't be so damned silly. Why do you deserve one any less than the next man. If you really feel that way then make a quick diary of your initial experiences (slightly more upbeat from where this started - but the same ideas) and also post any fixes you've found to your problems - or better still, link to the correct thread. It only takes a few to give the developers a better idea at what to work on, after all experienced Linux users won't notice half the problems that they fix automatically.

*Others may feel I'm a muppet offering no good ideas. You'd be right most of the time

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 6:01 pm

I would suggest that someone updates the FAQ on the foundations homepage which describes the Pi as a capable little PC etc.. I think this is stretching the reality a little.

In response to the previous post, why should Forum moderators be preferential to get a Pi? unless they are actively developing and contributing to the Foundations goals? Which does not involve moderating forums, or whinging that they are more deserving of a Pi than anyone else..

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 6:10 pm

cashaw said:


I would suggest that someone updates the FAQ on the foundations homepage which describes the Pi as a capable little PC etc.. I think this is stretching the reality a little.

In response to the previous post, why should Forum moderators be preferential to get a Pi? unless they are actively developing and contributing to the Foundations goals? Which does not involve moderating forums, or whinging that they are more deserving of a Pi than anyone else..



Only because they are kindly committing time, reading other peoples posts and banning people* etc. I would consider this contributing to the Foundations goals, albeit a gentle and non-direct contribution. I for one am grateful of the time they put in.
Certainly not because they can make better use of the Pi than someone else. And, I would agree that they should not themselves be commenting on their own 'deservingness' of the Pi.

As I said, it is a personal view that they are more deserving. I do understand that others wont feel the same way, but I would happily be knocked back in the queue a little if it meant those chaps/chapesses could get a Pi a little sooner.

*The last bit is slightly tongue in cheek for those who don't have my/British(?) sense of humour.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 10:04 am

Bamboozled makes some valid points.

I've looked over the site, and have still not found any crystal clear instructions for setting up the Ras Pi, and the Absolute Beginners section of the forum has become bogged down with tec discussion (arguements about voltage levels??), that are both baffling and off-putting to a newcomer like myself.

I wholeheartedly admire and share the aims of the foundation in bringing basic affordable level computing to the masses, but the use of tec heavy language, and the assumption of a shared basic computing knowledge by a lot of the users on this forum, will ultimately alienate beginners. ._.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 11:36 am

Mercury said:


Bamboozled makes some valid points.

I've looked over the site, and have still not found any crystal clear instructions for setting up the Ras Pi, and the Absolute Beginners section of the forum has become bogged down with tec discussion (arguements about voltage levels??), that are both baffling and off-putting to a newcomer like myself.

I wholeheartedly admire and share the aims of the foundation in bringing basic affordable level computing to the masses, but the use of tec heavy language, and the assumption of a shared basic computing knowledge by a lot of the users on this forum, will ultimately alienate beginners. ._.


Well, we cannot delete overly technical posts....! And cannot force people to write non-technical posts. It's a forum.

That said, there is still work to do on some of the data in the site, remember, we are still a work in progress.
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 11:39 am

cashaw said:


I would suggest that someone updates the FAQ on the foundations homepage which describes the Pi as a capable little PC etc.. I think this is stretching the reality a little.

In response to the previous post, why should Forum moderators be preferential to get a Pi? unless they are actively developing and contributing to the Foundations goals? Which does not involve moderating forums, or whinging that they are more deserving of a Pi than anyone else..


Well, I'd say Forum moderators should get preference because they are, indeed, actively promoting the Foundations goals. This promotion doesn't just consist of dev time on the software on the board, it covers a vast array of 'stuff that needs doing'
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 11:40 am

James H

You're right, and I don't mean to be overly critical, there's bound to be rough edges. I found the 'wiki' to be pretty good, and cuts through a lot of the technical discussion in the forums.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 11:54 am

What we need to do is:


Review Q&As posted on the forums
Distill into new Wiki / FAQ entries

Best not to belittle the effort moderating a forum like this. I've been a moderator of several forums in the past, and you would be surprised at the amount of work it entails.

Incidentally, I encountered the same situation with the eeeuser.com forum in the early days (too many threads to wade through to get answers). So we did the above, and delivered a rather tasty wiki which covered the main points.

No point going over old ground re: one person's claim to early Pi delivery over another's. The rules were set (basically, a free-for-all with a limit of one per person) and we all had the same chance to get our orders in as everyone else. I can't see that it could have been done any better than that, without setting up a sort of adjudication committee where you explain why you deserve to get one sooner. Not a road the Foundation would want to go down, if you ask me!

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 12:25 pm

Re #113.

First, yes, I agree that the way things were setup, an adjudication committee would have been the only option - and that, clearly, that's not something anyone (i.e., the Foundation) would have wanted to do.

But then there is the question of "How could it have been done better?"  And, whenever anyone brings that up (as I just did), people start saying things like "No use crying over spilled milk" and "No point going over old ground ...".  Which is pretty much valid, except for this: The problem is that when people say you can't change the past, they are, of course, 100% correct (and will remain so, right up until we  do, at last, invent a time machine), but unfortunately, this often means that we can't change the present or the future either, because to do so would be to admit that we made a mistake in the past.  And people are loath to do that.  One of my favorite quotes is:


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.

- John Kenneth Galbraith -



I've already stated how I think the launch should have been done differently, and I do believe that at this point, all of the troubles (e.g., this whole thread) flowed from the way the initial launch was handled.  And, no, it is not hindsight.  I was posting to that effect before 2/29.

But I am sure it will all work itself out, eventually...
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 1:06 pm

JonB said:

The rules were set (basically, a free-for-all with a limit of one per person) and we all had the same chance to get our orders in as everyone else. 
Not entirely. Those who could not make themselves available at the time had a much lower chance than those who could.

If the Foundation had taken requests to purchase over a period of time and then pulled the names out of a hat that would have removed the need to be available at a particular point in time and in my opinion would have levelled the field, equalised the chance for everyone and increased the fairness.

What's been done has been done and it's pointless going over old ground and I only mention it because the myth that everyone truly had an equal chance is demonstrably false.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 1:14 pm

hippy said:

Not entirely. Those who could not make themselves available at the time had a much lower chance than those who could.

Just because someone could not make themselves available doesn't mean everyone didn't have equal chance.  Everyone had a choice - some people chose to be available at that time, others chose not to.  Your personal schedule doesn't change the rules of probability (not you personally - a generalised "your"

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 1:50 pm

hippy said:


If the Foundation had taken requests to purchase over a period of time and then pulled the names out of a hat that would have removed the need to be available at a particular point in time


they sort of did.... they had a email mailing list that was supposed to notify people of the time ad date the pi was going to go on sale, and dispatch was going to be done from the date you signed up for the email notification...

the thing is, when that plan was originally conceived, the foundation had mortgaged the houses took loans and all sorts to get a production run of 10000 units and were worried they would not sell them... that changed when news of the RPi went viral, and the amount of people that registered intrest and orders rose to nearly half a million units. with only 10,000 available no matter what the plan was, it was going to fall to pieces.

in fairness, I think the launch went as well as it could. I challenge anyone with no experience of a product launch to get a product to market with the level of interest that the pi had and done it better. particularly if the actual numbers are not known until the item goes on sale..

the biggest failure in my opinion of the launch was RS. people ere told that you could place an order, when it was only register interest...

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 3:01 pm

If theres anything ive learnt from user-driver open source type projects in the past, is that when people who have knowledge and interest in something put their heads together, incredible results are not usually too far behind.

Ive bought my Pi as a non programmer, fully aware i might need to wait a good while before anything i can properly day-to-day use comes along (though the progress made on XBMC builds already are hugely encouraging).

I might even use the Pi for what it was meant for, as a platform to learn some programming.

I only read the first few posts (as im at work and probably shouldnt be reading any) but i think its a shame some people have missed the point so drastically.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 3:20 pm

feddon said:

I only read the first few posts (as im at work and probably shouldnt be reading any) but i think its a shame some people have missed the point so drastically.
Nicely put!!

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 4:21 pm

Well, I"d say Forum moderators should get preference because they are, indeed, actively promoting the Foundations goals. This promotion doesn"t just consist of dev time on the software on the board, it covers a vast array of "stuff that needs doing"

Well if the forums goals are to encourage a new user to sell their Pi when asking in the "absolute beginners" form about problems they are having, then yes, you should certainly have one.

But the brunt of the issue for me is on launch day there was no mention of the release only being for developers, there is nothing mentioned on the foundations homepage of FAQ"s that this is the case. There was no mention in any of the press releases that only developers should be buying the Pi, in fact the FAQ makes mention of it being a capable little PC running spreadsheets and word processing and the like. So it should be of no surprise to the foundation if people who have purchased it are raising questions, as the OP did, on issues they are finding. They should be encouraged and pointed towards potential uses, applications and not be told straight off to sell it on eBay because other people are more deserving of it than them.

Especially this part of the forum needs to be welcoming and tolerant to newbies who may not fully understand the potential of what they have luckily been able to procure.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 4:59 pm

cashaw said:



But the brunt of the issue for me is on launch day there was no mention of the release only being for developers, there is nothing mentioned on the foundations homepage of FAQ"s that this is the case. There was no mention in any of the press releases that only developers should be buying the Pi,


if you had read through the forums and the posts from liz on the main page (for the weeks prior to pi day), then it does clearly state that its a release intended for developers and other users to get software and literature ready for a full educational release later in the year. add to that, its a board that arrives with no instructions, no operating system, no power supply, not even in a case.... does that not scream developers release I don't know what does...

and not forgetting a developer may not have to be a professional developer which is why it went on sale to the public

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 5:05 pm

cashaw said:


Well, I"d say Forum moderators should get preference because they are, indeed, actively promoting the Foundations goals. This promotion doesn"t just consist of dev time on the software on the board, it covers a vast array of "stuff that needs doing"

Well if the forums goals are to encourage a new user to sell their Pi when asking in the "absolute beginners" form about problems they are having, then yes, you should certainly have one.

But the brunt of the issue for me is on launch day there was no mention of the release only being for developers, there is nothing mentioned on the foundations homepage of FAQ"s that this is the case. There was no mention in any of the press releases that only developers should be buying the Pi, in fact the FAQ makes mention of it being a capable little PC running spreadsheets and word processing and the like. So it should be of no surprise to the foundation if people who have purchased it are raising questions, as the OP did, on issues they are finding. They should be encouraged and pointed towards potential uses, applications and not be told straight off to sell it on eBay because other people are more deserving of it than them.

Especially this part of the forum needs to be welcoming and tolerant to newbies who may not fully understand the potential of what they have luckily been able to procure.



There's also not much we can do about different levels of commentory on the board. We get completely slated if we delete comments, or we get completely slated if we leave comments here. Anyone have any ideas what we should do about that? Apart from ask people to be polite and not too condescending? Which we already do.
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 5:06 pm

Oh, and I don"t want to seem too negative, I love the Pi, foundation and all it is trying to achieve. But I have worked in product development and management for 15 years and fully believed in some of the products I"ve released, only to watch new users attempting to use them and see them fall at the first hurdle. Just the other week I was watching a new user using one of my products and she pointed out a spelling mistake on the first page of the tool, it had been there for 8 years, but neither myself or any of the other users had noticed it over the many years it had been operating. You become blind to the reality when you have worked to closely with something for a long period.

If you are developing any tool or product, it is always good to quietly watch a new user attempting to work with it, you learn so much on what needs to be improved or changed. Which is why I strongly believe that the foundation needs to learn from the initial reactions some new users are posting on this forum. The OP is not the first, or the last, and we (and the mods) need a clear way to address the issues they are having and also address them in future and educational releases

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 6:18 pm

cashaw said:


If you are developing any tool or product, it is always good to quietly watch a new user attempting to work with it, you learn so much on what needs to be improved or changed.


I completely agree. I suspect the Foundation may also have a slight inkling that this is a good thing

But let's not conflate constructive criticism and whingeing. The way that you convey your impressions - first or otherwise - makes a big difference to whether people will listen to you and take you seriously.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 8:05 pm

scep said:





whingeing ... makes a big difference ... people will listen to you and take you seriously.


Selective quotation is a wonderful tool.

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