What version of Linux is it?

[jax_redpanda]

Hi

Quick question to those in the know.  What version of Linux is the RPi shipped with? reason I ask is I understand it is Deb but the RS link to "show interest" states it is Fedora.

[abishur]

Neither actually.  The R-pi is just a bare board.  (Ah, I crack myself up with useless answers)

In serious though, to make it run you have to furnish an SD card (full sized, or possibly micro/mini-SD in a full sized adapter) and download one of the images off the downloads page.  Follow the instruction on the downloads page to get the OS onto your SD card as it's slightly more involved than just copy and pasting the .img file you download

At the moment, I recommend the Debian package, but they're all worth downloading and trying out for yourself

[dom]

The board is not shipped with an OS. You need to provide an sdcard, and it's up to you which image you install.

The 3 mains ones are Debian, Fedora and Arch. See here:

http://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads

I think Debian is currently the preferred distribution, but there are pros and cons of each.

Perhaps we should have a poll to see which is preferred in a few weeks time.

[jax_redpanda]

Ah gotcha now, thanks for the replies, think I shall head down the deb line as I happily run ubuntu these days (after RH/fedora).

cheers all

[Don Stewart]

Just a quick note which may help someone else.

After downloading each of the OS zip files I started to unzip them using the standard Windows XP Extraction Wizard and after 30 seconds with no indication of action so I assumed that the wizard or windows had crashed.

After forcing the wizard closed three or four times, rebooting the computer and trying the other OS files with the same result I was beginning to suspect foul play.

I finally realised that due to the size of the extracted .img files it actually takes a few minutes for the wizard to do its work, during which time there is no indication that it is doing anything.

The Fedora RAR image also takes quite a time to extract but at least WinRAR shows you what is happening.

[Joe Schmoe]

Two comments:

1) It will be easier for the foundation to start selling pre-made SD cards than to make "idiot-proof" instructions and/or an idiot-proof application for making them (*).  Note that this should all start happening once the new employee gets back from vacation^Wholiday and the RPi store is re-opened for business.

2)  Until that all happens, the current instructions (downloads) should come with an up-front note that says: The first step in the process is to get to a shell prompt (**) and if you are not comfortable working from a shell prompt, then this task is probably not for you.

(*) Note well that the basic assumption in the computer industry today is that people (meaning: non-hackers) do not install OSs.  Machines should come pre-installed/pre-configured.

(**) "shell prompt" == bash/tcsh in Linux.  "Terminal" in MacOSX, "Command Prompt" in Windows.  Or whatever...

[abishur]

I know on the SD card issue, there was some hold up based on the insane number of SD cards you'd have to buy when you bought in bulk (if I remember correctly it was something like one of those giant metal shipping containers you see put on cargo ships), and the lack of storage space to put those in.

That said, I personally am of the stance that individuals should be forced to set up their own SD card.  On windows it's literally a three click set up.  On Linux you can copy/paste the bash prompt command to do it for you.  There do need to be clear and concise instructions, and of course lots of support from the forum, but it just seems counter productive to release a board designed to *end* the standard of kids being mere users of a system and then go out of your way to make sure they don't have to install anything ever! 

[jamesh]

Joe Schmoe said:


Two comments:

1) It will be easier for the foundation to start selling pre-made SD cards than to make "idiot-proof" instructions and/or an idiot-proof application for making them (*).  Note that this should all start happening once the new employee gets back from vacation^Wholiday and the RPi store is re-opened for business.

2)  Until that all happens, the current instructions (downloads) should come with an up-front note that says: The first step in the process is to get to a shell prompt (**) and if you are not comfortable working from a shell prompt, then this task is probably not for you.

(*) Note well that the basic assumption in the computer industry today is that people (meaning: non-hackers) do not install OSs.  Machines should come pre-installed/pre-configured.

(**) "shell prompt" == bash/tcsh in Linux.  "Terminal" in MacOSX, "Command Prompt" in Windows.  Or whatever...


1. Not sure I agree that setting up a system to buy large quantities of SD cards then duplicate then,  then a shop to sell them, is easier than writing three lines of instructions.

2. Only on Linux/Mac do you need the prompt - in Windows there is a gui app called Win3DiskImager which works fine.

[Joe Schmoe]

James, no disrespect (seriously!), but you know that I totally disagree (ITD in Usenet slang) with both things you've said.

Theory vs. practice, and all that...

You especially need the command prompt in Windows, in order to dispel from your mind the notion that you  can do this task in "Windows/Microsoft" mind-mode - that is, just by pointing and clicking with no underlying understanding.

Further, it is *not* "just a few clicks".  There is more, much more, that needs to be understood and to be done - from the perspective of the "Windows/Microsoft mind-mode" infected user.

[Joe Schmoe]

Oh, and somewhat apropos of nothing, I think you will all find this old chestnut amusing:

UNIX Airways

Everyone brings one piece of the plane along when they come
to the airport. They all go out on the runway and put the
plane together piece by piece, arguing non-stop about what
kind of plane they are supposed to be building.

Air DOS

Everybody pushes the airplane until it glides, then they jump
on and let the plane coast until it hits the ground again.
Then they push again, jump on again, and so on ...

Mac Airlines

All the stewards, captains, baggage handlers, and ticket agents
look and act exactly the same. Every time you ask questions
about details, you are gently but firmly told that you don't
need to know, don't want to know, and everything will be done
for you without your ever having to know, so just shut up.

Windows Air

The terminal is pretty and colorful, with friendly stewards,
easy baggage check and boarding, and a smooth take-off. After
about 10 minutes in the air, the plane explodes with no warning
whatsoever.

Windows NT Air

Just like Windows Air, but costs more, uses much bigger planes,
and takes out all the other aircraft within a 40-mile radius
when it explodes.

Linux Air

Disgruntled employees of all the other OS airlines decide to
start their own airline. They build the planes, ticket counters,
and pave the runways themselves. They charge a small fee to
cover the cost of printing the ticket, but you can also download
and print the ticket yourself. When you board the plane, you
are given a seat, four bolts, a wrench and a copy of the
seat-HOWTO.html. Once settled, the fully adjustable seat is
very comfortable, the plan leaves and arrives on time without
a single problem, the in-flight meal is wonderful. You try to
tell customers of the other airlines about the great trip, but
all they can say is, "You had to do what with the seat?"

[jamesh]

Joe Schmoe said:


James, no disrespect (seriously!), but you know that I totally disagree (ITD in Usenet slang) with both things you've said.

Theory vs. practice, and all that…

You especially need the command prompt in Windows, in order to dispel from your mind the notion that you  can do this task in "Windows/Microsoft" mind-mode – that is, just by pointing and clicking with no underlying understanding.

Further, it is *not* "just a few clicks".  There is more, much more, that needs to be understood and to be done – from the perspective of the "Windows/Microsoft mind-mode" infected user.


It is just a few clicks on Windows, whether you have an infected mind or not. It's also just a few command lines in Linux.  Half a page of instructions at most. Not sure where the problem is.

[Chris.Rowland]

One of the nastiest things about Linux is the smug Linux adherents patronising everyone else.

[Jongoleur]

Chris Rowland said:


One of the nastiest things about Linux is the smug Linux adherents patronising everyone else.



Never mind, with the RasPi going into circulation, everyone will become more familiar with Linux at one level or another and thus dilute the smugquotient.  Soon it will be completely impossible to say "well you can do it more easily in Linux" as thats what eveyone will be using anyway!



Of course, MY first distro was MCC Interim..... 

[Chris.Rowland]

So, as an admin you think that being smug, patronising and unhelpful is a good thing. This is not a good example.

Linux needs to move into the 21st century and pay some attention to application design and usability and not dump this onto the user.  There's nothing clever about writing a half finished system. Nor is there in blaming the user for the inadequacies of the developers.

[Joe Schmoe]

Chris: Who do you see as doing that (the things that you allege) ?

(Serious question - because, if it is me, then I can assure you that you did not get the "wah" of my posting style)

By the way, you (i.e., *your* posting style) remind me very much of a guy who posts on the Linux groups on Usenet as "Chris Glur".  Might you have been separated at birth??

[spurious]

You may be missing the point of the whole project.. To get people under the hood and understand what the computer is doing... so to have it all shrink wrapped and sanitised in a windows system and never see that dirty thing called a command prompt is a bit off target.

You are actively being encouraged to learn something about the computer, and not just point and click.

Sorry if you feel this is not something you should sully your hands with.

[Joe Schmoe]

Excellent!  Well put, Mr. Spurious.

That's been my point all along.

[EarthlyPangaea]

I think that there's a certain trade-off here between teaching people new things and completely overwhelming them.  I don't see anything wrong with the dd or Win32DiskImager methods explained already.

It wouldn't be fair to overwhelm new users by getting them to compile a kernel themselves, partition a card manually etcetera.  Especially when new and unfamiliar users would have no idea what those are.

[Jongoleur]

Chris Rowland said:


So, as an admin you think that being smug, patronising and unhelpful is a good thing. This is not a good example.

Linux needs to move into the 21st century and pay some attention to application design and usability and not dump this onto the user.  There's nothing clever about writing a half finished system. Nor is there in blaming the user for the inadequacies of the developers.



As several admins have posted on this topic, it'd be nice if you specified which one you were hauling over the coals.  "Smug, patronising and unhelpful" is never any good, however my point in particular was that the democratisation that the RasPi will engender - after all, if you want to use Pi, then you have to use Linux, then the snobbish mindset will become less prevalent as more people become used to using Linux.

As for the state of user interface design, well both Apple and Microsoft have thrown years of development, huge sums of money at the problems within their own operating systens and still haven't got there yet,  Of course, it'd be handy to know what particular aspect of Linux you are ranting about.  The OS itself, or some particular application?

If you're talking about the OS images for the RasPi, then please remember that it is a devekopment system.  It is being modified and refined on a daily basis.  The consumer release will be a little more polished.

Linux is largely a community effort.  If you have expertise in an area that you think needs dragging kicking and screaming into the 21st century, then why not volunteer yoyr skills, instead of whining about imperfections.

[Vindicator]

Respectfully I am wondering what went wrong with this thread, it answered the question then went ballistic over the difference of opinions about OSes.LLOOOLL.

Does this really disjointed thread contribute to an Absolute beginner other than it did at the first to answer the OP's question.

Let the arrows fly.

[jamesh]

EarthlyPangaea said:


I think that there's a certain trade-off here between teaching people new things and completely overwhelming them.  I don't see anything wrong with the dd or Win32DiskImager methods explained already.

It wouldn't be fair to overwhelm new users by getting them to compile a kernel themselves, partition a card manually etcetera.  Especially when new and unfamiliar users would have no idea what those are.


I agree. The point I was trying (badly?) to make was that it's important to make it easy to use the Raspi up front, or people will be put off. Getting people to use an obscure DD command before they even get the device booted it going to put off more people that it attracts. I also expect a lot of people to be downloading the image on a Windows machine and creating the SD card from there.

Once they have the Raspi up and running, THEN you can start introducing more complicated concepts.

Imagine if the BBC micro needed you to flash the OS using a bunch of obscure commands on to it before you could use it....

[jamesh]

Chris Rowland said:


So, as an admin you think that being smug, patronising and unhelpful is a good thing. This is not a good example.

Linux needs to move into the 21st century and pay some attention to application design and usability and not dump this onto the user.  There's nothing clever about writing a half finished system. Nor is there in blaming the user for the inadequacies of the developers.


Chris, please refrain from posts that border on the insulting - and also please provide references to the smugness you are implying, because having read the thread, I'm not seeing it.

[redplanet44]

Hi,just adding my pennyworth as this thread seems to have become a war between Linux and Windows users.I am a retired building worker with NO formal computer training.I started using computers in the days of the zx81.Ever since then I have moved on to "the next big thing".I started using Linux many  years ago,when you had to manually load all the libraries required for your particular pc.And spend many hours installing a useable system.I actually found it FUN.These days Linux is simply a few clicks to get a fully opreating system up and running.So simple in fact that I change my operating systems every  couple of months just to try something different.If any Windows users out there complaining have ever tried installing a new Windows system to a blank drive.You will know what a nightmare it is.

Just to add.Bill Gates wife stated once that peace had  returned to their home only after Bill dumped his Windows systems and started using Linux.As he now no longer spends half his time swearing at the computer screen.

So do what I did.Bite the bullet and get installing linux.And please learn some programming.It really is rewarding.

[Chris.Rowland]

JamesH said:


Chris Rowland said:


So, as an admin you think that being smug, patronising and unhelpful is a good thing. This is not a good example.

Linux needs to move into the 21st century and pay some attention to application design and usability and not dump this onto the user.  There's nothing clever about writing a half finished system. Nor is there in blaming the user for the inadequacies of the developers.


Chris, please refrain from posts that border on the insulting - and also please provide references to the smugness you are implying, because having read the thread, I'm not seeing it.


Joe Schmoe's last two posts before my post, that was the last straw.

Jongeleur's reply to my post.

I'll let you know as I see others, I don't plan to go through the whole forum but it's pretty endemic.

There's a general assumption among Linux devotees that a command line interface is all that's needed and there's there is no need to do anything about making that consistent - every interface is different.  Even  --help doesn't always work.

I see a module with a command line interface only as half finished - probably in practice less than that.  An example would be parted and gparted.  With gparted it's easy to set up partitions, with parted you seem to need to do all manner of calculations to work out where the partition boundaries are.

Telling users that they should use a complex series of command line commands as the first thing they do is IMO not helpful. A beginner is likely to get something wrong so it doesn't work.  People need a learning curve that starts gently and ramps up as they get more experienced, not be presented with a wall they have to get over before they can start.

Part of the reason I'm involved here is that I want to help. I don't need a Pi to learn programming. I can do that on a variety of PCs. I do see the idea that we need more people who understand computing and I want to help.

But the manner of the people who seem to be convinced that the command line is the only worth while way of interacting with a computer makes me nervous about contributing. I see no benefit in inviting ridicule

[abishur]

Chris Rowland said:


Joe Schmoe's last two posts before my post, that was the last straw.

Jongeleur's reply to my post.

I'll let you know as I see others, I don't plan to go through the whole forum but it's pretty endemic.

There's a general assumption among Linux devotees that a command line interface is all that's needed and there's there is no need to do anything about making that consistent - every interface is different.  Even  --help doesn't always work.

I see a module with a command line interface only as half finished - probably in practice less than that.  An example would be parted and gparted.  With gparted it's easy to set up partitions, with parted you seem to need to do all manner of calculations to work out where the partition boundaries are.

Telling users that they should use a complex series of command line commands as the first thing they do is IMO not helpful. A beginner is likely to get something wrong so it doesn't work.  People need a learning curve that starts gently and ramps up as they get more experienced, not be presented with a wall they have to get over before they can start.

Part of the reason I'm involved here is that I want to help. I don't need a Pi to learn programming. I can do that on a variety of PCs. I do see the idea that we need more people who understand computing and I want to help.

But the manner of the people who seem to be convinced that the command line is the only worth while way of interacting with a computer makes me nervous about contributing. I see no benefit in inviting ridicule



Having read both their posts, and knowing their writing styles on the forum, I think you may have mistaken their levity for smugness.

Regardless, no one is asking users to do complicated CLI instructions right off the bat. We're talking about them using win32disk a windows gui program that takes 3 clicks to run.  As an avid windows user myself, and as someone who toke something like 10 tries over 10 years to get into Linux I don't think this is an unreasonable first step.  It is my personal opinion that forcing users to do this one little task will both prepare them for the coming world of Linux and bolster their confidence for having just "installed" their very first OS.

I'd also like to point out that I have yet to hear *any* user actually using the R-pi complaining that win32disk or dd was too hard, in which case we're trying to defend a user group that doesn't actually exist.