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procount
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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:49 am

The new SDcard imager utility is now available!
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspbe ... g-utility/
Even simpler for beginners.
PINN - NOOBS with the extras... https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=142574

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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:07 pm

procount wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:49 am
The new SDcard imager utility is now available!
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspbe ... g-utility/
Even simpler for beginners.
It sounds like you'll need a pretty fast/stable internet connection.
I'm curious what happens if you lose network connectivity mid-write.
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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:15 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:07 pm
It sounds like you'll need a pretty fast/stable internet connection.
I'm curious what happens if you lose network connectivity mid-write.
Businnes as usual. Either use the local cached image or retry ;)
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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:57 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:07 pm
I'm curious what happens if you lose network connectivity mid-write.
It supports download resumption and retries automatically if connection to webserver is lost.
(As long as it did manage to download at least a little bit in the first place, you keep the app open, and do not shutdown the computer).

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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:13 pm

framp wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:20 pm
I'm wondering why NOOBs is the primary OS suggested to Raspberry beginners
NOOBS is not actually an OS just an installer for an OS.

NOOBS was initially recommended because it was the easiest way for most people, particularly Windows users, to get Raspbian onto a FAT formatted SD Card, booted and installed on their Pi.

It was a simple download, unzip, drag and drop to SD Card which most Windows users would be familiar and comfortable with.

Later, as both Raspbian and SD Cards got larger, that became more complicated and problematic.
framp wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:20 pm
given the fact people which use NOOBS do not get much support from the huge Raspberry community willing to help on every Raspberry related issue but stay away from any issue on NOOBs.
That's mostly related to those in the community who, from the start, never liked the idea of NOOBS and seized on every issue a NOOBS user had to discredit it and suggest users instead did things the way they preferred things being done.

NOOBS offended their sensibilities and, rather than help them overcome their problems, they would steer them in the direction they preferred them to be going.

As Raspbian and SD Cards have got larger that has become more legitimate, but it wasn't always the case.

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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:37 pm

Milliways wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:31 am
It is a challenge posed by the Foundation to stop the unmotivated from using the Pi.

To install either `NOOBS` or `Raspbian` you need access to a computer with a SD Card writer; `
No computer needed, just an app on your phone - check my sig
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=170856
Android app - Raspi Card Imager - download and image SD cards - No PC required !

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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:43 pm

hippy wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:13 pm
That's mostly related to those in the community who, from the start, never liked the idea of NOOBS and seized on every issue a NOOBS user had to discredit it and suggest users instead did things the way they preferred things being done.

NOOBS offended their sensibilities and, rather than help them overcome their problems, they would steer them in the direction they preferred them to be going.

As Raspbian and SD Cards have got larger that has become more legitimate, but it wasn't always the case.
I don't believe any of that to be true.

I think it's much more likely that most advanced users install Raspbian directly, so that is where their experience lies. I have no idea about NOOBS at all, so hesitate to advise when NOOBS is used, unless it's clearly unrelated to the issue.
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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:43 pm

I just learned from this thread that I don't have to always format an SD card before burning a Raspian image using Etcher, assuming I'm not installing NOOBs. Does this apply to cards larger than 32gb, e.g., both 64gb and 128gb, or do they have to be handled differently?

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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:27 am

Disbursed wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:43 pm
I just learned from this thread that I don't have to always format an SD card before burning a Raspian image using Etcher, assuming I'm not installing NOOBs.
Indeed not necessary.

And when using the Raspberry Pi Imager, you do not even need to format it beforehand when installing NOOBS.
If you feed it a .zip file that has more than a single file in it, it will assume it is something like NOOBS/PINN/Berryboot/EEPROM recovery/etc., and will format the card as FAT32 automatically, and extract the contents.
If the .zip has a single file, it will be assumed to be a raw disk image, and that will be written, overwriting any existing formatting.

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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:09 am

Disbursed wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:43 pm
Does this apply to cards larger than 32gb, e.g., both 64gb and 128gb, or do they have to be handled differently?
The size of the card is not important. When writing an image to the card, you never need to format it first.

The image (the .img file) contains a complete, installed, working, copy of the raw disk.

Importantly, this includes the partition table.

Thus if you create any partitions and format them, they will all be overwritten and lost when the .img file is copied over it.
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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:38 am

jamesh wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:43 pm
I don't believe any of that to be true.
My judgement is based on the number of times certain people claimed "NOOBS causes more problems than it solves" with no evidence of that being presented, coupled with the suggestion that no one should ever use NOOBS but would be better off using something else. That seems more ideological than factual to me given not using NOOBS also created problems for some.

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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:52 pm

jahboater wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:09 am
Disbursed wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:43 pm
Does this apply to cards larger than 32gb, e.g., both 64gb and 128gb, or do they have to be handled differently?
The size of the card is not important. When writing an image to the card, you never need to format it first.
Unless of course, you're using NOOBS... Part of the reason we usually recommend avoiding it - it complicates the install process. Nothing to do with discrediting NOOBS or trying to force people to do things "our way" (not directed at you, jahboater, just quoting you to make a point)
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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:19 pm

Could someone check the Downloads page?
NOOBS has disappeared. :?
2020-03-08-181828_1280x1024_scrot.png
2020-03-08-181828_1280x1024_scrot.png (68.8 KiB) Viewed 897 times
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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:22 pm

Screenshot at 2020-03-08 23-23-41.png
Screenshot at 2020-03-08 23-23-41.png (112.69 KiB) Viewed 889 times
It's still there from here !
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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:56 pm

There's a link to NOOBS right there in your screenshot as pointed out by PeterO
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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:58 pm

Yes there is a link to NOOBS, but I mean that the Foundation appears to have de-emphasized NOOBS.
The main downloads page used to look like this:
2020-03-08-185414_1280x1024_scrot.png
2020-03-08-185414_1280x1024_scrot.png (36.09 KiB) Viewed 880 times
Now it looks like this:
2020-03-08-181828_1280x1024_scrot.png
2020-03-08-181828_1280x1024_scrot.png (68.8 KiB) Viewed 880 times
It looks like they are advertising their new imager tool as being the new "beginner-friendly" tool.
Want to make your own Raspbian image?
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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:08 am

That's probably because they're moving to the new raspberry pi imager software recently released.
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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:41 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:08 am
That's probably because they're moving to the new raspberry pi imager software recently released.
Correct.
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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:29 am

Botspot wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:58 pm
Yes there is a link to NOOBS, but I mean that the Foundation appears to have de-emphasized NOOBS.
So if you knew what was happening, why make the overly dramatic "Noobs is missing" post ????
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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:38 am

Botspot wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:19 pm
Could someone check the Downloads page?
NOOBS has disappeared. :? 2020-03-08-181828_1280x1024_scrot.png
About time - BUT this is now steering users into a limited option.

The Foundation seems unable (or unwilling) to recognise the difference between an OS image and an installer.

Ideally we would be offered a list of installers and a list of OS.

As usual experienced Pi users will ignore it. I won't be downloading until Bullseye is released

The new imagers are useless to anyone but beginners and provides no option to restore backups - (of course most don't make backups)

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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:17 am

Milliways wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:38 am
Botspot wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:19 pm
Could someone check the Downloads page?
NOOBS has disappeared. :? 2020-03-08-181828_1280x1024_scrot.png
About time - BUT this is now steering users into a limited option.

The Foundation seems unable (or unwilling) to recognise the difference between an OS image and an installer.

Ideally we would be offered a list of installers and a list of OS.

As usual experienced Pi users will ignore it. I won't be downloading until Bullseye is released

The new imagers are useless to anyone but beginners and provides no option to restore backups - (of course most don't make backups)
The new imager is INTENDED for beginners, also is clearly useful for everyone. We also provide the SC Card copier (Piclone) for making and restoring backups.

But I'm really not sure what you are asking for? A list of installers? What does that mean? And we still have a the ability to download the images as before.

We are also very aware of the difference between an OS image and an installer (you'd hope so, we have been doing this long enough), so not sure what you are getting at there either.
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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:55 am

jamesh wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:17 am

The new imager is INTENDED for beginners, also is clearly useful for everyone. We also provide the SC Card copier (Piclone) for making and restoring backups.

But I'm really not sure what you are asking for? A list of installers? What does that mean? And we still have a the ability to download the images as before.

We are also very aware of the difference between an OS image and an installer (you'd hope so, we have been doing this long enough), so not sure what you are getting at there either.
Maybe I should have been clearer; I an sure you aware of the difference between an OS image and an installer - BUT you would never get this impression from the web page.

If I was designing it it would say you can install these OS and then say you can install using any of these methods.

By all means recommend OS and list their merits and do the same for installation methods.

The current page reads USE this to install Raspbian alternatively if you follow a (non obvious) link these are the Raspbian versions you can install and if you follow YET another link to methods.

I think the choice of OS is the primary one, the method in installation a secondary option.

There are NO instructions on how to use the installers - I haven't actually used one, but apparently you are offered a choice of OS and thus can't say how much information this presents to the user about what the choices offer.

PS SC Card copier is a great tool for making SD Card copies but is NOT a backup tool.

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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:47 am

Milliways wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:55 am
jamesh wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:17 am

The new imager is INTENDED for beginners, also is clearly useful for everyone. We also provide the SC Card copier (Piclone) for making and restoring backups.

But I'm really not sure what you are asking for? A list of installers? What does that mean? And we still have a the ability to download the images as before.

We are also very aware of the difference between an OS image and an installer (you'd hope so, we have been doing this long enough), so not sure what you are getting at there either.
Maybe I should have been clearer; I an sure you aware of the difference between an OS image and an installer - BUT you would never get this impression from the web page.
Not sure why this is a problem - for beginners, we are making it as easy as possible. Downloads this Imaging tool, and it does everything for you.
Milliways wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:55 am

If I was designing it it would say you can install these OS and then say you can install using any of these methods.
But that is more complicated. Easier for beginners to just run the imager then select the OS.

Milliways wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:55 am
By all means recommend OS and list their merits and do the same for installation methods.

The current page reads USE this to install Raspbian alternatively if you follow a (non obvious) link these are the Raspbian versions you can install and if you follow YET another link to methods.
Yes, so the web page is doing exactly what we want. WHich is encourage users to use the imaging tool.
Milliways wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:55 am
I think the choice of OS is the primary one, the method in installation a secondary option.
OS is still the primary choice - download the installer, then choose the OS you want and it does the rest for you.
Milliways wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:55 am
There are NO instructions on how to use the installers - I haven't actually used one, but apparently you are offered a choice of OS and thus can't say how much information this presents to the user about what the choices offer.
Ah, I think I sere the issue. Try it, it's unbelievably simple. Select OS, select SD card, press Write.
Milliways wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:55 am
PS SC Card copier is a great tool for making SD Card copies but is NOT a backup tool.
Really? Why not?
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Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:26 pm

I much prefer how things are now.

Its much more beginner friendly and those who are just past beginner can use the images directly, and will recognise that they can do so. Previously, the Web page made it seem like one had no choice but to use NOOBS, and I don't think that helped the situation.

NOOBS was by no means bad, but it had its share of flaws (in suitability for a beginner) which this new imager tool appears to have addressed well. Promoting its use to beginners should be encouraged. Those skilled enough to not require it will simply ignore it. It's win-win.
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Re: Why is NOOBs suggested to be used by Raspberry beginners?

Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:11 pm

Milliways wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:55 am
I think the choice of OS is the primary one, the method in installation a secondary option.
For first time Pi users I would disagree. If first time Pi users can't easily get something onto their PI then whatever might be chosen as an OS is irrelevant. That was the premise of NOOBS and PINN; get this booting on your Pi then decide what you want to use.

A first time PI user should usually be choosing Raspbian; anyone who knows they want something else should have enough nous to figure out how to get that.

The Foundation's page is perfectly fine for the first time user it is targeted at, as well as other users who may arrive at that page while looking for the older tools or greater options.

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