RoboticGolem
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:04 am

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:12 am

:D

Got my Raspberry Pi today (well, Christmas Eve anyway No sleep for the guy with new toys)

Love it! The longest part of getting it set up was backing up all the stuff that was on the sd card that I was going to use (cause I wasnt expecting to get it this year)

Being a rusty old linux user, I found the quick guide all that I needed. While looking through drawers for the hdmi cable I stumbled across an old 7" screen that I was using as a status monitor for my pc. Now I need to get my hands on one of those laser keyboards and I'll have a complete pc thats smaller than most tablets!

....now to figure out how to get it to connect to a different x-server... ;)

Joe Schmoe
Posts: 4277
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:54 pm

clive wrote:
rurwin wrote:Nice newbie guide. Can I be pedantic for a moment? It might be worth saying that the password "raspberry" is not echoed to the screen. There have been several people confused by that.

And since it is 20 minutes after midnight, Merry Christmas and goodnight ;-)
It's the most frequently requested change to the manual (mahjongg and you have both asked for it :)) so it will definitely be in the next version. Merry Christmas!
Or you [*] could fix the system so that it behaves as most people expect it to - in ways along the lines of a recent post of mine.

[*] Rhetorical "you", of course. Incidentally, and I've always been curious about this, who [**] really is in control of the so-called "recommended" releases. Who controls what gets in and what doesn't?

[**] I'm looking for either an individual or a group here.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

flyinghappy
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:31 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:49 pm

I see a lot of posts about "catering to beginners" and "working right out of the box" which is all well and good but where is the learning. If you are using this for pretty much anything other than productivity then why would you want to remove some of the most fundamental learning experience of just having it work. I run archlinux on my pi and desktop which requires me to instal the entire system the way I want (I don't have any unused programs), I need to edit system files and config files to get the results _I_ want. One of the things I have found is that I now understand not only a bunch of commands, but I understand what is going on in the background and how things are connected. This is the point of the pi; pure, unadulterated learning and fun. I understand a lot of people don't come to technology as easy as some others, but an open mind and mindset to learn and help yourself goes a long way. There is so much info out there for Linux it is mindblowing, the community effort that has went into Linux is incredible even if it isca bit scattered.

Edit: also remember it is a community effort, if you think something is lacking, you hold the power to add to the documentation, contribute with code etc..... it is a $35 computer with free software.....
Pi with ArchLinux running a minidlna/samba home server

ShiftPlusOne
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 6238
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:36 pm
Location: The unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:15 pm

flyinghappy wrote:I see a lot of posts about "catering to beginners" and "working right out of the box" which is all well and good but where is the learning. If you are using this for pretty much anything other than productivity then why would you want to remove some of the most fundamental learning experience of just having it work. I run archlinux on my pi and desktop which requires me to instal the entire system the way I want (I don't have any unused programs), I need to edit system files and config files to get the results _I_ want. One of the things I have found is that I now understand not only a bunch of commands, but I understand what is going on in the background and how things are connected. This is the point of the pi; pure, unadulterated learning and fun. I understand a lot of people don't come to technology as easy as some others, but an open mind and mindset to learn and help yourself goes a long way. There is so much info out there for Linux it is mindblowing, the community effort that has went into Linux is incredible even if it isca bit scattered.

Edit: also remember it is a community effort, if you think something is lacking, you hold the power to add to the documentation, contribute with code etc..... it is a $35 computer with free software.....
That's all good in theory, but I don't think it works that way in practice. This device is meant to create more programmers and computer literate people. Most people won't bother if they have to struggle against the hardware before they can even log in.

On the other hand, if they power it up and everything just works and they have tutorials and examples available right on the desktop, it's only a matter of time before they start tinkering with the inner workings.

You can alienate a lot of people by making them jump through hoops before anything useful happens, but you won't drive people off simply by providing documentation aimed at beginners.

User avatar
rurwin
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4257
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:16 pm
Contact: Website

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:23 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote:
rurwin quoted by clive wrote:Nice newbie guide. Can I be pedantic for a moment? It might be worth saying that the password "raspberry" is not echoed to the screen. There have been several people confused by that.

And since it is 20 minutes after midnight, Merry Christmas and goodnight ;-)
Or you [*] could fix the system so that it behaves as most people expect it to - in ways along the lines of a recent post of mine.
It doesn't scratch my itch. I like it; it has antique value. It would be very easy to change.
[*] Rhetorical "you", of course. Incidentally, and I've always been curious about this, who [**] really is in control of the so-called "recommended" releases. Who controls what gets in and what doesn't?

[**] I'm looking for either an individual or a group here.
Raspian was/is the personal project of a group of forum members. When it worked better than the official Debian release prepared by the Foundation, the Foundation adopted it as the preferred distribution.

Joe Schmoe
Posts: 4277
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:51 pm

rurwin wrote:
Or you [*] could fix the system so that it behaves as most people expect it to - in ways along the lines of a recent post of mine.
It doesn't scratch my itch. I like it; it has antique value. It would be very easy to change.
Nor, obviously, for me either, personally. But we're supposed to be thinking of the proverbial "new user" here. The "commercial" way to look at this is that when the cost of answering the questions as to why it doesn't work the way (some) people expect it to exceeds the cost of making the fix, then you should make the fix. Obviously, reasonable people can disagree as to whether or not this is the right attitude and also as to when that point is reached.

Incidentally, someone recently posted a link to a "Why Linux is not Windows" page. Very interesting reading; explains well the difference between free software and commercial systems. Though I don't think what he says necessarily means what he (the author) thinks it means.
Raspian was/is the personal project of a group of forum members. When it worked better than the official Debian release prepared by the Foundation, the Foundation adopted it as the preferred distribution.
Would you be betraying any confidences if you reveal who these people are?
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

User avatar
rurwin
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4257
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:16 pm
Contact: Website

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:03 pm

Not at all. Here's the thread:

Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

User avatar
clive
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1013
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:19 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:30 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote:Would you be betraying any confidences if you reveal who these people are?
More info here: http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... =66&t=9951
and here: http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianFAQ

plugwash
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3668
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:45 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:19 am

Joe Schmoe wrote:
clive wrote:
rurwin wrote:Nice newbie guide. Can I be pedantic for a moment? It might be worth saying that the password "raspberry" is not echoed to the screen. There have been several people confused by that.

And since it is 20 minutes after midnight, Merry Christmas and goodnight ;-)
It's the most frequently requested change to the manual (mahjongg and you have both asked for it :)) so it will definitely be in the next version. Merry Christmas!
Or you [*] could fix the system so that it behaves as most people expect it to - in ways along the lines of a recent post of mine.
Not echoing anything when the password is entered the "standard" for login prompts in a unix command line environment*.

I can see it both ways, on the one hand one could "fix" it and doing so would make things a bit more familiar for those used to GUIs (which have adopted the convention of echoing stars). On the other hand anyone who spends any time with linux is going to hit a login prompt that doesn't echo the password sooner or later, maybe it's better to tell them upfront than surprise them later.
[*] Rhetorical "you", of course. Incidentally, and I've always been curious about this, who [**] really is in control of the so-called "recommended" releases. Who controls what gets in and what doesn't?

[**] I'm looking for either an individual or a group here.
Ultimately the raspberry pi foundation choose what to reccomend on their website.

asb builds the raspberry Pi foundation raspbian images, i'm not sure what if anything his formal ties to the raspberry pi foundation are but he seems to be in much closer contact with them than I am and I presume they are directing what does and doesn't go into that image (i'm guessing asb and liz make the minor descisions but I suspect big stuff like the Pi store is discussed more widely in the foundation).
Raspian was/is the personal project of a group of forum members.
Specifically myself and mpthompson.
When it worked better than the official Debian release prepared by the Foundation, the Foundation adopted it as the preferred distribution.
They did however I should clear up some confusion over what raspbian is and is not and what is being done by who.

Raspbian is a project to rebuild debian for armv6 hardfloat primarily but not exclusively targeting the raspberry Pi (we have also had it running on the via APC). As with Debian, the result of this is a repository full of packages. Various people (including at some points mpthompson) combine those packages with other bits to make images that will run on the raspberry pi. When the raspberry pi foundation decided to adopt raspbian as the recommended distro they started building (with some cooperation from us) their own images based on our repository.

Just as the developers of Debian don't contol what goes into the raspberry Pi foundation's Debian images the developers of Raspbian don't contol what goes into the raspberry Pi foundation's Raspbian images.

User avatar
williamhbell
Posts: 291
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:13 pm
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:45 am

striplar wrote:"Do you mean The MagPi? If so, I'm not quite sure how we jumped from the original post to a third party magazine."

Indeed I do mean MagPi. You happen to know that this is a third party magazine, I would wager that most of the readers aren't aware of that, I certainly wasn't.
Hi,

It states on the bottom of the MagPi web page:
The MagPi magazine is collaboratively produced by an independent group of Raspberry Pi owners, and is not affiliated in any way with the Raspberry Pi Foundation.
The same message is written on the back page of each magazine. On the main raspberry pi web site, the MagPi is quoted as a friend of the raspberry pi foundation.

The magazine articles are written and then published. Some of the details are out of date now, but were tested and checked at the time of publication. One of the issues has been printed and the rest will be printed in January. Updates to old articles will be dealt with in two ways: (i) typos or minor mistakes will be fixed before printing, (ii) errata on other history will be put on the MagPi Twiki pages.

As far as I know, the last GPIO article [issue 7, page 12] is up to date.

Over the past year a lot of things have changed. These changes are best documented in a Twiki, where they can be quickly updated. Manuals (pdf) should be updated from time to time. As we have seen recently, Clive has taken some action to address this. (Thanks Clive.)

Best regards,

Will

User avatar
Nipper
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:55 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:54 pm

Open this link http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... 24&t=26842 and follow the link to find out how the problems outlined in this forum were dealt with in the mid eighties. Download the .PDF files and see how the problem of getting readers engaged in programming were tackled then. It is a lesson we seem to have forgotten. Furthermore I personally think going the Linux route will prove to be a choice that will hold back development of Pi. It is itself a product in development and is inherently unstable and needs "fixes" all the time.

flyinghappy
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:31 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:02 pm

I have been running Linux for a few years and find it more stable than Windows on my $1400 PC with good specs. Linux is also the main OS for servers in the world which requires stability. Linux is in development like every other OS on the market. If development stopped any OS would be in a world of hurt. For a low spec computer like this is is the obvious choice. Like anything else though, it requires an open mind and research to get it right, I can make my system work far better with Linux than windows for that very reason.
Pi with ArchLinux running a minidlna/samba home server

User avatar
Nipper
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:55 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:23 pm

"Like anything else though, it requires an open mind and research to get it right" is at the heart of a looming problem. Have you read all the post online about the Pi. A lot of people have bought a very good product that has at its heart a flaw. They find it hard to get it running. What the developers of this product (and that now includes all Pi owners) should do is develop a language that is comprehensible to all users and to the Pi itself. BASIC would be a good place to start. Let Pi have its own language. Call it what you like, I suggest Pi RECIPE, but base it on the original BASIC language.

Joe Schmoe
Posts: 4277
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:50 pm

Nipper wrote:"Like anything else though, it requires an open mind and research to get it right" is at the heart of a looming problem. Have you read all the post online about the Pi. A lot of people have bought a very good product that has at its heart a flaw. They find it hard to get it running. What the developers of this product (and that now includes all Pi owners) should do is develop a language that is comprehensible to all users and to the Pi itself. BASIC would be a good place to start. Let Pi have its own language. Call it what you like, I suggest Pi RECIPE, but base it on the original BASIC language.
It seems to me that the Pi people really ought to be pushing RISCOS rather than Linux. RISCOS is so much more "self-contained" than Linux. So much more appropriate for teaching purposes and also much more "newbie-friendly". Unlike Linux, it "just is". And it comes with a built-in BASIC that should make any 80's nostalgia guy proud.

Caveat: I'm a Linux nerd - So, I'm not talking here for myself. In fact, I played with RISCOS on the Pi some - decided it wasn't Linux - and scurried back to Linux. But that's me. Like I said, I'm an old Linux nerd.

Caveat #2: The situation is very similar on the Hackberry - the other SBC that I own and play with. The board is really designed to run Android (which, like RISCOS, is really, from a hacker/nerd point-of-view, just another "toy OS"), but all the hacker/nerds want to run Linux. So, that's what we do, even though we are well aware that a) Everything works under Android and b) It's never really going to be there under Linux. But that's why we're hacker/nerds. Because we like it to be hardchallenging.

P.S. How do you do "overstrike" here?
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

tullotoe
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:22 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:25 pm

It seems to me that a Calculus book might be less daunting if all the homework was done for the new student as well.

You have to look at the intent of the project. What are the new users, the students, trying to get out of this (the Pi)? Are you going to throw this at a total computer illiterate and expect them to learn something useful out of it, or do you have some (assumed?) prerequisites? What could someone that knows nothing about computers learn from this better/easier than the right IDE on Win/Mac desktop?

Everyone I have talked to is excited about this AS the project. This IS the project. How much of the homework do you want done for you? Why would you give this to someone that didn't know how to program already, and have to explain double precision numbers and how/why different architectures do them differently when she should be learning basic control structures and seeing boxes draw to amuse her and give her immediate feedback.

The double precision float isn't an "out of the box" type of question. That is a "I need to build the next box that works" question. This is an interesting question that users of this project will need to learn, trying to load different software/OSes, for starters.

Correct me if I am wrong, but is this supposed to be a real computer we want to "give our grandmothers", or is this a project kit?

Baby steps. If this isn't the project for you, then go with Python on Windows. You aren't going to hurt my feelings by not adopting Linux. You throw that out there like a threat or an antagonizing remark. Choice should take over the world in my opinion; not linux or OpenBSD or Mac OSX.

User avatar
rurwin
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4257
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:16 pm
Contact: Website

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:34 pm

@ Joe Schmoe
You can't; there is a very limited amount of BBCode that is enabled. Click on the BBCode link under the emoticons; it's limited to the absolute minimum. Been there, got the tee-shirt.

The thing about Linux is that it can be anything, whereas RiscOS is a very small ecosystem.

@ Nipper
Your BASIC and raise you a Python environment that works like immediate-mode BASIC. But have it run under Linux on start-up.

@tullotoe
Give a six year old child a calculus book, and no homework is going to get done. The trick is to keep the learning curve just flat enough that people feel they can cope. The Linux command line is one very big culture shock and it is no good telling people that that was all we had in our day.

User avatar
williamhbell
Posts: 291
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:13 pm
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:03 pm

Hi,

The LINUX "command line" in this case is a BASH interpreter. The BASH shell has an excellent man page. Shell scripts are great for building a powerful solution to crack problems: they allow many programs to be connected up together. (The first article in a series of BASH programming articles is currently being written for the MagPi.)

Having had a lot of experience with RiscOS and LINUX, LINUX would seem to be a good choice. After training with LINUX, one is able to tackle more complicated problems quickly. There is no reason why the basic LINUX install cannot be made just as smooth as RiscOS or OSX.

It would seem that we need: (i) very clear documentation, (ii) tailored SD card images, (iii) hardware kits which work perfectly, (iv) further improved USB drivers, (v) X-acceleration, (vi) optimised Scratch (small talk). Many people are trying to improve the Raspberry Pi experience. The software and performance of the Raspberry Pi has improved significantly since its launch. Workshops and training days are another way to attack the problem. Perhaps those who have complaints about the current situation should draw up a list of areas where improvements could be made and contribute to them also?

Regards,

Will

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 27068
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:24 am

Nipper wrote:Open this link http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... 24&t=26842 and follow the link to find out how the problems outlined in this forum were dealt with in the mid eighties. Download the .PDF files and see how the problem of getting readers engaged in programming were tackled then. It is a lesson we seem to have forgotten. Furthermore I personally think going the Linux route will prove to be a choice that will hold back development of Pi. It is itself a product in development and is inherently unstable and needs "fixes" all the time.
Although, Linux is stable than Windows, and requires less fixes (you presumably are aware windows updates itself all the time?). So what alternative are you thinking of, RISCOS?
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

User avatar
Nipper
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:55 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:26 am

I was thinking of a low level or entry level language that uses line numbering (like Amiga Basic on the Commodore 64). It was easy understand and used a set of logical commands that even first time users could master. Within minutes of starting novices were filled with a feeling of achievement which then left them wanting to do more and more. The Pi, after all, is aimed at novices but fails, not because of the hardware, but because of the software environment that is one or two steps above entry level and that will only lead to frustration with the Pi being left, not in the pantry, but, in the draw.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 27068
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:37 am

Nipper wrote:I was thinking of a low level or entry level language that uses line numbering (like Amiga Basic on the Commodore 64). It was easy understand and used a set of logical commands that even first time users could master. Within minutes of starting novices were filled with a feeling of achievement which then left them wanting to do more and more. The Pi, after all, is aimed at novices but fails, not because of the hardware, but because of the software environment that is one or two steps above entry level and that will only lead to frustration with the Pi being left, not in the pantry, but, in the draw.
Hmm. Well, it's easy enough to get Linux to launch straight in to Python or similar - that would be one option. But I do disagree that the Raspi fails right now. It doesn't take much effort to 'get into it'. After all ,the BBC micro required some semblance of knowledge to get anywhere past the prompt stage. Also, remember we are still in the initial stages of software development at the moment.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

User avatar
Nipper
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:55 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:25 pm

"It doesn't take much effort to 'get into it'" is precisely not the right answer. The BBC micro did not get it nor did the Sinclair ZX Spectrum or a host of fruity sounding machines. Their downfall wasn't the machine looks or build it was the language they communicated in. The Commodore 64 still holds the record for the most units sold of any computer. It wasn`t down to its good looks, or, how fast it worked, it was down to the language it worked in. Even newer models by the same manufacturer couldn`t outsell it, as they say, "do the math" . A program that uses line numbering, simple, logical, basic language, building into simple, easily understood routines, will always beat the competition. So how does Python stand up to Amiga Basic ?

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 27068
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:38 pm

Nipper wrote:"It doesn't take much effort to 'get into it'" is precisely not the right answer. The BBC micro did not get it nor did the Sinclair ZX Spectrum or a host of fruity sounding machines. Their downfall wasn't the machine looks or build it was the language they communicated in. The Commodore 64 still holds the record for the most units sold of any computer. It wasn`t down to its good looks, or, how fast it worked, it was down to the language it worked in. Even newer models by the same manufacturer couldn`t outsell it, as they say, "do the math" . A program that uses line numbering, simple, logical, basic language, building into simple, easily understood routines, will always beat the competition. So how does Python stand up to Amiga Basic ?
"Their downfall"? What downfall?!! They were hugely popular and create a whole new generation of programmers (I'm one of them!). There was no downfall!

I never used a C64 (did play with a few PET's though), despite its popularity. And I think there were many machines that were even easier to use than the C64, which never became as popular. It's an argument that goes both ways. The whole raison d'etre of the Raspi is for teaching. Make it too easy, and people don't learn anything, make it too hard and they never start learning. But there needs to be some challenge, or people find it boring (see ICT lessons for a good example). Just the act of figureing stuff out is great learning.

I fear you may be rather stuck in the 80's if you need someone to compare Python with Amiga Basic, which simple wouldn't be up to the job of teaching modern stuff, even given it's reputation.

Interestingly, the C64 sold between 12 and 17M units in the 12 years it was on sale. Similar yearly sales figures to the Raspi! And it went on to become the best selling home computer of all time (ignoring PC's)
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

poing
Posts: 1132
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:32 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:50 pm

Nipper wrote:A program that uses line numbering, simple, logical, basic language, building into simple, easily understood routines, will always beat the competition. So how does Python stand up to Amiga Basic ?
I've no experience with Amiga Basic, but I do program since 1985 in GWBasic, QuickBasic and VisualBasic 3 through 2010. Since owing the Pi recently I started using Python and I think it's a revelation. YMMV. I do use SciTE as my editor (on Windows, using Samba to load the files from the Pi, but I think it runs under Linux too) which shows line numbers, while the error output in the Putty terminal shows line numbers as well. I really don't get your problem with the Foundation's choices.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 27068
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:27 pm

poing wrote:
Nipper wrote:A program that uses line numbering, simple, logical, basic language, building into simple, easily understood routines, will always beat the competition. So how does Python stand up to Amiga Basic ?
I've no experience with Amiga Basic, but I do program since 1985 in GWBasic, QuickBasic and VisualBasic 3 through 2010. Since owing the Pi recently I started using Python and I think it's a revelation. YMMV. I do use SciTE as my editor (on Windows, using Samba to load the files from the Pi, but I think it runs under Linux too) which shows line numbers, while the error output in the Putty terminal shows line numbers as well. I really don't get your problem with the Foundation's choices.
I missed the reference to line numbers in the original comment. Lines numbers are defunct. They are completely unnecessary (even in basic), and do not lead to good programming practice, certainly not in any mainstream languages.

And that's from someone who grew up with BBC Basic. As to a comparison of Basic and Python, hmm, in fact I'd say they were similar (well, most languages are 'similar'), but Python has the edge in being multi platform, and having a colossal number of libraries for using all the features of the Raspi.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

User avatar
Jim JKla
Posts: 2218
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:15 pm
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

Re: "Beginners" put off...

Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:35 pm

Spoil sport I liked linenumbers they were great for writing spaggettii code all those prety goto and gosub commands. :mrgreen:
Noob is not derogatory the noob is just the lower end of the noob--geek spectrum being a noob is just your first step towards being an uber-geek ;)

If you find a solution please post it in the wiki the forum dies too quick

Return to “Beginners”