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Nipper
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:30 pm

croston wrote:That is an ancient version if RPi.GPIO! The latest version is a default package in Raspbian. The rate of change in software at the moment on Raspberry Pi is faster than can possibly be managed in print.
So how do I update... I do not posses a card reader other than the one on Pi

khulat
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:32 pm

The first four lines are entered in the command line and not in your python program. The fifth line is part of a python program.

bgirardot
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:35 pm

Nipper wrote:Now you`re losing me. I thought it was python I was using.Thats why I was downloading an update from googlecode.com/

What they are saying is that the commands you listed, the first 4 of them are commands you type in the terminal window.

But the last line would be the sort of a command that was in a python program file, not the kind of command you would type into a terminal window.

You might need to start with a very basic python tutorial so you get some experience working with python files and commands and by doing that you will get a sense for what is the command prompt and what is a python program written in a file.

If you do understand that and just mistook the "import" command a shell command, I apologize.

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rurwin
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:37 pm

Only Python reports a "Syntax error". If Python isn't involved, the error is "-bash: import: command not found".

What are we doing differently?


[email protected] ~ $ wget https://raspberry-gpio-python.googlecod ... 2.0.tar.gz
--2012-12-29 22:17:13-- https://raspberry-gpio-python.googlecod ... 2.0.tar.gz
Resolving raspberry-gpio-python.googlecode.com (raspberry-gpio-python.googlecode.com)... 173.194.67.82, 2a00:1450:400c:c00::52
Connecting to raspberry-gpio-python.googlecode.com (raspberry-gpio-python.googlecode.com)|173.194.67.82|:443... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
Length: 8381 (8.2K) [application/x-gzip]
Saving to: `RPi.GPIO-0.2.0.tar.gz'

100%[======================================>] 8,381 53.7K/s in 0.2s

2012-12-29 22:17:24 (53.7 KB/s) - `RPi.GPIO-0.2.0.tar.gz' saved [8381/8381]

[email protected] ~ $ tar xvzf RPi.GPIO-0.2.0.tar.gz
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/.hg/
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/.hg/last-message.txt
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/RPi/
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/RPi/GPIO/
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/RPi/GPIO/__init__.py
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/RPi/__init__.py
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/RPi.GPIO.egg-info/
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/RPi.GPIO.egg-info/PKG-INFO
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/RPi.GPIO.egg-info/SOURCES.txt
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/RPi.GPIO.egg-info/dependency_links.txt
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/RPi.GPIO.egg-info/top_level.txt
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/CHANGELOG.txt
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/INSTALL.txt
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/LICENCE.txt
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/MANIFEST.in
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/README.txt
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/distribute_setup.py
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/setup.py
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/PKG-INFO
RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/setup.cfg
[email protected] ~ $ cd RPi.GPIO-0.2.0
[email protected] ~/RPi.GPIO-0.2.0 $ sudo python setup.py install
Downloading http://pypi.python.org/packages/source/ ... .21.tar.gz
Extracting in /tmp/tmpyn1Vem
Now working in /tmp/tmpyn1Vem/distribute-0.6.21
Building a Distribute egg in /home/pi/RPi.GPIO-0.2.0
/home/pi/RPi.GPIO-0.2.0/distribute-0.6.21-py2.7.egg
running install
Checking .pth file support in /usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/
/usr/bin/python -E -c pass
TEST PASSED: /usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/ appears to support .pth files
running bdist_egg
running egg_info
writing RPi.GPIO.egg-info/PKG-INFO
writing top-level names to RPi.GPIO.egg-info/top_level.txt
writing dependency_links to RPi.GPIO.egg-info/dependency_links.txt
reading manifest file 'RPi.GPIO.egg-info/SOURCES.txt'
reading manifest template 'MANIFEST.in'
writing manifest file 'RPi.GPIO.egg-info/SOURCES.txt'
installing library code to build/bdist.linux-armv6l/egg
running install_lib
running build_py
creating build
creating build/lib.linux-armv6l-2.7
creating build/lib.linux-armv6l-2.7/RPi
copying RPi/__init__.py -> build/lib.linux-armv6l-2.7/RPi
creating build/lib.linux-armv6l-2.7/RPi/GPIO
copying RPi/GPIO/__init__.py -> build/lib.linux-armv6l-2.7/RPi/GPIO
creating build/bdist.linux-armv6l
creating build/bdist.linux-armv6l/egg
creating build/bdist.linux-armv6l/egg/RPi
creating build/bdist.linux-armv6l/egg/RPi/GPIO
copying build/lib.linux-armv6l-2.7/RPi/GPIO/__init__.py -> build/bdist.linux-armv6l/egg/RPi/GPIO
copying build/lib.linux-armv6l-2.7/RPi/__init__.py -> build/bdist.linux-armv6l/egg/RPi
byte-compiling build/bdist.linux-armv6l/egg/RPi/GPIO/__init__.py to __init__.pyc
byte-compiling build/bdist.linux-armv6l/egg/RPi/__init__.py to __init__.pyc
creating build/bdist.linux-armv6l/egg/EGG-INFO
copying RPi.GPIO.egg-info/PKG-INFO -> build/bdist.linux-armv6l/egg/EGG-INFO
copying RPi.GPIO.egg-info/SOURCES.txt -> build/bdist.linux-armv6l/egg/EGG-INFO
copying RPi.GPIO.egg-info/dependency_links.txt -> build/bdist.linux-armv6l/egg/EGG-INFO
copying RPi.GPIO.egg-info/top_level.txt -> build/bdist.linux-armv6l/egg/EGG-INFO
zip_safe flag not set; analyzing archive contents...
creating dist
creating 'dist/RPi.GPIO-0.2.0-py2.7.egg' and adding 'build/bdist.linux-armv6l/egg' to it
removing 'build/bdist.linux-armv6l/egg' (and everything under it)
Processing distribute-0.6.21-py2.7.egg
creating /usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/distribute-0.6.21-py2.7.egg
Extracting distribute-0.6.21-py2.7.egg to /usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages
Adding distribute 0.6.21 to easy-install.pth file
Installing easy_install script to /usr/local/bin
Installing easy_install-2.7 script to /usr/local/bin

Installed /usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/distribute-0.6.21-py2.7.egg
Processing dependencies for distribute==0.6.21
Finished processing dependencies for distribute==0.6.21
Processing RPi.GPIO-0.2.0-py2.7.egg
creating /usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/RPi.GPIO-0.2.0-py2.7.egg
Extracting RPi.GPIO-0.2.0-py2.7.egg to /usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages
Adding RPi.GPIO 0.2.0 to easy-install.pth file

Installed /usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/RPi.GPIO-0.2.0-py2.7.egg
Processing dependencies for RPi.GPIO==0.2.0
Finished processing dependencies for RPi.GPIO==0.2.0
[email protected] ~/RPi.GPIO-0.2.0 $ python
Python 2.7.3rc2 (default, May 6 2012, 20:02:25)
[GCC 4.6.3] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import RPi.GPIO as GPIO
>>>

bgirardot
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:42 pm

According to what he put in, he is not typing "python" to enter the python interpreter.

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Nipper
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:45 pm

Yes that is the response I get when enter in all the lines of code up until I enter the last line an press return

khulat
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:04 pm

Did you work through Chapter 11: An Introduction to Python? I think that would be a better start. rurwin has inserted another command after the fourth one, that has taken him into the python environment, which is the difference that he mentions.

bgirardot
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:22 pm

By the way, it is unfortunate this thread is so derailed now.

While I do not agree with everything said about beginners being put off, I did feel there was a lot of useful information and feedback getting discussed.

Helping the person with the python problem should really be in its own thread in the python section.

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Nipper
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:34 pm

Sorry for asking the question on this thread I was posting on a different topic and got off pist (or is that pist off)

bgirardot
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:42 pm

Nipper wrote:Sorry for asking the question on this thread I was posting on a different topic and got off pist (or is that pist off)
If you already have a thread about the problem started, maybe you could just put a link to it here and folks continue to that thread. if not, maybe start a thread in the python forums so people can continue to work with you on getting your project going.

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liz
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:58 pm

Given the derailment, folks (I know we have some people who post regularly to this thread), would you like me to close this as OT and start a new one?
Director of Communications, Raspberry Pi

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Nipper
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:13 am

I have just posted my question regarding GPIO in the python forum ...so moving to pastures new :D

BrendonShaw
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:49 am

I have been using the RPi for a couple of months and I just wanted to add a few comments, sorry if there have been posted earlier or repeated. I have been using computers & embedded development system for years and have faced many problems just getting the RPi up and running. Reading the previous post, I can fully understand people hitting brick wall and sticking the RPi in the draw. I have to admit I have not purchase the RPi book, so some of the comments below might be made in that reference book

1. Ability to buy “one-box-Pi” the completed RPi setup i.e. RPi mounted in a case, pre-flashed SD card, WiFi, PSU, cables, keyboard & mouse. Within this kit, simple & easy set of instructions to get the RPi up and running.
2. I understand the complexity but it would be nice to include an i/o demo board (Not sure if this would be possible). May be expanding this in the future to different type of kit i.e. robotics, web development, Lego interface (may be Lego will use RPi?) etc
3. On the above pre-flashed SD card, working coding examples which people can use to understand & see what the RPi can do
4. Link on the download site to simple & easy instructions to setup of the o/s and get the RPi running.
5. Easy to understand and follow though walk through to setup i.e. VNC, WiFi, basic programs etc which work and included within the RPi web site and not 3rd (not always upto date & incorrect)
6. Not sure if there is an easy way to setup the WiFi via a PC via setup file or even application on the web site. This would help use the WiFi immediately rather than via any type of setup program on the RPi.
7. Ability to lose the login user name & password, is it really required for basic usage

The problems I have faced getting RPi up & running
1. There is some great sources of information, but no single source of easy to read information. With Arch & Debian it took several attempts to get the basics working, then hit a brick wall and went around in circles for a few days and posted on the forum to get it resolved. Normally during this period I would screw up my SD card and need to re-build the image and then re-run though the setup again.
2. It took be 2 days to get the VNC running, I found a great post on the forum but it still need not work so more searching on the web and found another post, working after another SD image re-build. This seems to be the same for most things I want to use the RPi, but there is great support and information it’s just finding it.
3. Making the RPi more like a toy rather than a piece of IT equipment. My five boy is really interested in the Gertboard and like to get this up and running but it’s taken me days just to get into a position to start using the RPi and now to start coding the Gertboard. I know this will come some pre-build kits, i.e. power up the RPi and the I/O board now starts working (not sure if this would be possible).

May be if it was too easy, I would not be learning Liunx & RPi.

I fully appreciate all the hard work gone into and developing the RPi, I think it’s a great product and can see the benefits within education. Please accept by comments as suggestions rather than negative remarks

Sueno
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:04 am

Wow.......
Reading all that lot there aren't too many beginners there. No wonder so many are having difficulty. I still think that the simplest route for beginners is the RISCOS Pi SD card, the excellent user interface and the many, well proven, education and beginners applications in BBC BASIC. If you are new to this stuff then go to the RPi download page and try it or buy a card from www.riscosopen.org. You can come back to the wonderful world of Linux when you feel compfortable again.

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Jim JKla
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:45 pm

If you consider the method of the foundation has taken with the RPi you will quickly see a "Broadcast method". This is "Broadcast" in it's original dictionary sense.

Broadcast was the original method of sowing seed where the farmer had a bag or tray of seed at his/her waist an handfuls of seed were scattered on the ground.

That analogy is quite good RS and Farnell can be considered left and right hands.

Whilst this method is relatively inefficient it is cheap to administer it is relatively even handed and some of the seeds will grow and produce patches of fantastic growth that will seek out new sources of seed.

There has been a small modification to the method in that the seed supplier has left a thread back to themselves the original source of the seed.

While we can now see this “Beginners put off” feeling has surfaced some of the seed has found a pocket of fertility and to be fair these are the seeds the foundation wants to nurture.

There are nearly (we don’t know exactly) a million seeds out here in the world and the growing crop is beginning to bare fruit.

There will be beginners who will eventually return some raspberry seeds will lay in dark lonely crevasses for years someday to be nurtured by an inquiring mind.

To this end the wiki and the forum are a deep and rather fresh pile of manure and as one of the lumps I wish to thank the farmer for giving me the opportunity to be fertile with some of the seed. ;)

If anyone wants to share some of my random fertility it's on the wiki and can be found by looking for "Noob" my brand of manure is suitable for nurturing noob growth. :D
Noob is not derogatory the noob is just the lower end of the noob--geek spectrum being a noob is just your first step towards being an uber-geek ;)

If you find a solution please post it in the wiki the forum dies too quick

Liuqahs15
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:24 pm

Okay, now I'm a little confused. I was talking on a separate forum with people about my struggles using the Pi to learn linux, python programming and hardware. But almost unanimously they all believe that the Pi is not at all for beginners. It's not for people who don't know linux. It's not for people who can't program. It's not for people who are new to working with hardware. And as I've mentioned before, the most buzzworthy things about the pi, on the main blog and in the media, are the DIY projects done by people who already know what they're doing when they get a Pi.

So which is it? I'm willing to accept that I was wrong about the Pi's purpose, if that's the case.

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Nipper
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:40 pm

I have been arguing from the first time I turned on my new Pi that it most certainly does not do what it say`s on the tin. I am feeling like I am trying to plat fog. There seems to be no logic as far as the language used to talk to the machine is concerned. If adults find it difficult how are the children this machine was supposed to aimed at going to cope

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Burngate
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:08 pm

I have to disagree.
It does exactly what it says on the tin. It runs Linux or RISC OS. You can program it. You can learn how right from the lowest level.

What you can't do is jump in the deep end and magically swim. You need guidance, from parents or teachers or scout leaders or books or the net.

If you throw a kid in the pool you'll have drowned kids.
If you let them learn with guidance you may get an Olympic swimmer.

The educational material will be coming. We're supposed to be helping with that (though I personnally haven't yet done much to help)

Heckles
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:27 pm

Burngate wrote:I have to disagree.
It does exactly what it says on the tin. It runs Linux or RISC OS. You can program it. You can learn how right from the lowest level.

What you can't do is jump in the deep end and magically swim. You need guidance, from parents or teachers or scout leaders or books or the net.

If you throw a kid in the pool you'll have drowned kids.
If you let them learn with guidance you may get an Olympic swimmer.

The educational material will be coming. We're supposed to be helping with that (though I personnally haven't yet done much to help)
That pretty much says it all for me :) its going to take time for the materials to be written checked and published..

Might also be nice to get some precompiled packages made for things like VNC with a default config that'll work almost out of the box. So it'd literally be a case of just running the install package which would install it, configure all the IP address, run it in the background and then list the ip needed to connect to on the screen for instance.

Also there's some serious rosé tinted glasses going on here guys :) I remember loading stuff on my ZX spectrum an five mins into the loading it crashed due to dodgy tapes :D

jamesh
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:26 pm

Liuqahs15 wrote:Okay, now I'm a little confused. I was talking on a separate forum with people about my struggles using the Pi to learn linux, python programming and hardware. But almost unanimously they all believe that the Pi is not at all for beginners. It's not for people who don't know linux. It's not for people who can't program. It's not for people who are new to working with hardware. And as I've mentioned before, the most buzzworthy things about the pi, on the main blog and in the media, are the DIY projects done by people who already know what they're doing when they get a Pi.

So which is it? I'm willing to accept that I was wrong about the Pi's purpose, if that's the case.
Well, I wouldn't trust that forum then. I firmly believe that the Pi can be used by beginners, to computers, to programming, to Linux. But you know what? All those things are actually difficult. There isn't some magical spell that suddenly means it all trivial to learn. You can make some initial documentation to help at the very start just to get bits working (yes, we are indeed working on that), but at the end of the day, becoming proficient and understanding how to use Linux, to program, or how a compute device works is, actually, a difficult thing to do. It requires effort from the student. Some will get it, many won't.

The reason you see a lot of stuff by competent people on the blog is simple. They are competent and in the relatively short time the Raspi has been available, the competent people are the ones who will be able to get a decent project going. However, there have also been blog entries reporting on the use of the Raspi by beginners (Scout groups, schools etc).

You were not wrong about the Raspi's purpose - conceived and built to help educate a new generation of competent programming and computer people, rather than a bunch of MS Word/Powerpoint experts that the current system churns out.
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jamesh
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:29 pm

Nipper wrote:I have been arguing from the first time I turned on my new Pi that it most certainly does not do what it say`s on the tin. I am feeling like I am trying to plat fog. There seems to be no logic as far as the language used to talk to the machine is concerned. If adults find it difficult how are the children this machine was supposed to aimed at going to cope
There are millions of people round the world successfully using Linux machines, adults and children. Its difficult at first (Yes, some of it defies logic, but then, so does the English language, and the popularity of the X factor), but perseverance gets you there. And next year will see many more people geting there as more and more documentation gets sorted out.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I own the world’s worst thesaurus. Not only is it awful, it’s awful."

bgirardot
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:05 pm

BrendonShaw wrote: 1. Ability to buy “one-box-Pi” the completed RPi setup i.e. RPi mounted in a case, pre-flashed SD card, WiFi, PSU, cables, keyboard & mouse. Within this kit, simple & easy set of instructions to get the RPi up and running.
2. I understand the complexity but it would be nice to include an i/o demo board (Not sure if this would be possible). May be expanding this in the future to different type of kit i.e. robotics, web development, Lego interface (may be Lego will use RPi?) etc
3. On the above pre-flashed SD card, working coding examples which people can use to understand & see what the RPi can do
4. Link on the download site to simple & easy instructions to setup of the o/s and get the RPi running.
Here is almost exactly what you describe in these 4 points. Is only missing the wifi/kb/mouse

https://www.adafruit.com/products/1014

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Jim JKla
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:28 pm

jamesh wrote:
Nipper wrote:I have been arguing from the first time I turned on my new Pi that it most certainly does not do what it say`s on the tin. I am feeling like I am trying to plat fog. There seems to be no logic as far as the language used to talk to the machine is concerned. If adults find it difficult how are the children this machine was supposed to aimed at going to cope
There are millions of people round the world successfully using Linux machines, adults and children. Its difficult at first (Yes, some of it defies logic, but then, so does the English language, and the popularity of the X factor), but perseverance gets you there. And next year will see many more people geting there as more and more documentation gets sorted out.
It appears our friend nipper is just not up to it and wants to justify an inate inability by blaming the tools available. I sugest jamesh you leave him to plat fog it's clear it's going to be a more intrinsically satisfying pastime.

In the future we will be able to find some of our more junior users currently under 10 who will take nipper under their wing and show him (I am assuming it's a him apollogies if I am wrong) that while Wheezy and all of the variants of Linux available to the the RaspberryPi may be difficult it's not a valid point of view to state that because he can't understand it nobody can.

It took me a couple of years to get my first Linux box LAMP server running now I think nothing of it. I would have dearly loved to have something like an RPi where to build a new server I flash an SD card and I have a fresh system.

It took a day to install my first Linux server I still have my log book where I dutifully tried to figure out what each of the installable packages did and tried to decide which ones I needed. Each hard drive format took over an hour.

So I would suggest nipper either stops whinging and puts in some study time in or passes his RPi (tin and all) to someone who is prepared to study. Linux is not easy if he looks closely it does not say on the tin that it is. ;)
Noob is not derogatory the noob is just the lower end of the noob--geek spectrum being a noob is just your first step towards being an uber-geek ;)

If you find a solution please post it in the wiki the forum dies too quick

pygmy_giant
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:31 pm

If they put more dogs on the X-factor I'll buy a television (with hdmi).
Last edited by pygmy_giant on Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:33 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote:1) I doubt your 10 year old is typical.
What? Are we already at the "no true Scotsman" fallacy in this discussion?
2) The two of you are looking at the term "line numbers" from totally different perspectives. You (JamesH) are thinking in terms of the religious evil of old-style BASIC and GOTOs, while Nipper is merely looking at in terms of navigation - that line numbers (whether they be part of the language (as they were in old-style BASIC) or merely as an artifact of the editor [*] are a great aid to code visualization and navigation.

[*] For example, in vi/vim, while line numbers are not there by default, they can easily be turned (via "set number")
But EVERYONE knows that line numbers properly belong in columns 73 through 80...so that if you drop the source deck all you have to do is run it through the card sorter to get everything back in the correct order....

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