smccain
Posts: 19
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:24 am

trainboy wrote:I totally agree. I to have been in computers since I was 20 years of age, I am now 60, and thought "I'll have a piece of that Pi action" but everything I try has had a stumbling block. As a example (1) - What's so big about Cross Compiling on a Windows platform? I can Cross compile for Atmel ATmega devices on a PC. I can Cross Complile for PIC 18F devices on a PC. Where is the problem? I need a Gcc complier that works on a PC with the associated header files for the Pi environment, and I will transfer the resultant Object file to the Pi and run it. I do not want to load Linux into my PC. I do not need a 2nd occurance of windows in a split screen environment PC. I do not need to have Debian Vs Raspian issues. I am only creating a file that will run on an Arm Cpu.
Example (2) - I want to use I2C bus and program it in 'C' - what a palaver!!! I can see the signals SDA & SCL on a 'scope if I use i2cdetect -y 1 (I have a Rev2 Pi) but will it work from a C program - no it will not.
I2C works fine. I've written a library, shared object, and some C# wrapper code to call the so. All works great for me.

Check this out: http://www.skpang.co.uk/blog/archives/575
And this: http://binerry.de/post/27128825416/rasp ... uino-slave
Edit: Here is the link to the relevant C code for the i2c-arduino project: https://github.com/binerry/RaspberryPi/ ... 2c-arduino

In that c file you will find the code you need to make an i2c call.

Finally, if you want me to send you the code for my library (based on the links above) send me a PM and I'll get you the source. I'll be adding a repo on github soon, but I don't want to push it up until I finish the documentation.

Liuqahs15
Posts: 21
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:32 am

To begin, I want to say that I was going to start a topic similar to this, but luckily I looked around first. I read the first maybe 10 to 12 posts before I decided I'd add my own input, so sorry if I repeat some things. It seems people want a detailed explanation of the turn-offs a beginner might face, and so here they are. I'll try to be as structured and clear as possible:

The public image of the Pi seems different from the mission. I don't really want to get into the whole "It's a $35 computer" debate. I'm more interested in talking about the main blog on raspberrypi.org. If you scroll through, all you really see are (excluding the recent Christmas charities) posts about projects that are relatively ambitious for a newcomer. Portable game consoles, security systems, baby monitors.

They're all cool and exciting, don't get me wrong, but they're luring in newbies who think that it's possible they can produce something like that really soon. While it's possible, we must be honest and recognize that most of the "newbies" aren't even going to know what "pwd" does in bash. They'll likely have very basic electronics experience if any. An in-car PC is just not something they should be expecting to make when they come in.

Meanwhile, on the FAQ page it says "We want to see it being used by kids all over the world to learn programming." So then why isn't the front page a place where I find tutorials for beginners? Suggestions for realistic, feasible, yet exciting beginner projects? Detailed explanations of very frequently asked questions (how do I run a script at startup for example)? I know the MagPi exists, and a couple of RaspberryPi Youtube channels, but they're outside resources for the most part. And besides, a lot of the youtube tutorials are just cute little "projects" where you're walked through step-by-step in a 5 minute video where absolutely nothing is explained to you. I may as well have just let the guy do it for me.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I'm a kid. I want to learn programming. I want to learn Linux. I can't set up an init script or do anything to the kernel. I don't know how to use gunzip. I'd just be glad to have audio over HDMI working, let alone compile, link and build an application (which I've no remote idea how to do, and have found little help on). Seeing all these great accomplishments by people who already know what they're doing is of no help to me. Is the Pi an open arm-based solution for hobbyist hardware projects, or is it the gateway into understanding computing for newbies? At this point, I have no idea.

I have more specific things I'd like to talk about, but I want people to read this post. I'll stop here. It's turning into an editorial.

jamesh
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:12 am

Liuqahs15 wrote:To begin, I want to say that I was going to start a topic similar to this, but luckily I looked around first. I read the first maybe 10 to 12 posts before I decided I'd add my own input, so sorry if I repeat some things. It seems people want a detailed explanation of the turn-offs a beginner might face, and so here they are. I'll try to be as structured and clear as possible:

The public image of the Pi seems different from the mission. I don't really want to get into the whole "It's a $35 computer" debate. I'm more interested in talking about the main blog on raspberrypi.org. If you scroll through, all you really see are (excluding the recent Christmas charities) posts about projects that are relatively ambitious for a newcomer. Portable game consoles, security systems, baby monitors.

They're all cool and exciting, don't get me wrong, but they're luring in newbies who think that it's possible they can produce something like that really soon. While it's possible, we must be honest and recognize that most of the "newbies" aren't even going to know what "pwd" does in bash. They'll likely have very basic electronics experience if any. An in-car PC is just not something they should be expecting to make when they come in.

Meanwhile, on the FAQ page it says "We want to see it being used by kids all over the world to learn programming." So then why isn't the front page a place where I find tutorials for beginners? Suggestions for realistic, feasible, yet exciting beginner projects? Detailed explanations of very frequently asked questions (how do I run a script at startup for example)? I know the MagPi exists, and a couple of RaspberryPi Youtube channels, but they're outside resources for the most part. And besides, a lot of the youtube tutorials are just cute little "projects" where you're walked through step-by-step in a 5 minute video where absolutely nothing is explained to you. I may as well have just let the guy do it for me.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I'm a kid. I want to learn programming. I want to learn Linux. I can't set up an init script or do anything to the kernel. I don't know how to use gunzip. I'd just be glad to have audio over HDMI working, let alone compile, link and build an application (which I've no remote idea how to do, and have found little help on). Seeing all these great accomplishments by people who already know what they're doing is of no help to me. Is the Pi an open arm-based solution for hobbyist hardware projects, or is it the gateway into understanding computing for newbies? At this point, I have no idea.

I have more specific things I'd like to talk about, but I want people to read this post. I'll stop here. It's turning into an editorial.
Thanks for the post - some interesting points. I think you will find that 2013 will have a big push in to the educational side of things. Up to this point, we have been catching up with productions, and getting the software sorted out on the device itself. It was always planned that the initial adopters (the techie ones!) would allow us to really test the hardware, and get everything ready for the educational side. But, we have sold many many more than expected, so more beginners are already using the device, and that has overtaken the creation of the 'beginners' side of the project. You can look forward to big advances in the beginners/teaching side of things in the near future. Hold on tight - its going to be a great ride!
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cgarcia
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:00 pm

Hi
Can I just support the need for educational resources aimed at children. I have just bought my son aged 11 a Pi for Xmas (like many I guess) and he's so so keen to learn. I foolishly bought the user guide by Eden Upton from amazon to give him a guide to this new world. It's clearly a great guide but useless to an 11 yr old with no previous experience. I mean what does an 11 yr old need to know about ARM v x86 as the first thing in a user guide!! Thank goodness I found the PDF file on getting started. But this just got it to fire up and has left him on his own. I was expecting to find some simple projects to do so he can learn and do things and learn some more. I eventually found something aimed at children on page 136 of the user guide. But this isn't written for the younger reader!
What is needed are
- some educational tutorials for NEW young users to computer programming
- some clear links on the website that guide NEW young users to where these resources are

By putting the hardware out there without supporting resources you will just turn off the kids we want to learn. Saying resources are going to be available next year will be too late for my son as if he can't find a fun way of learning he'll go onto the PS3 again. We need something next week!

Apologies if this exists somewhere but I can't find it.

How about if you set up a section on the forum to get older users to write up some easy start projects.

Please don't say this is an opportunity for me to help my son to learn. I want him to want to learn for himself. Isn't this what this is about.

Frustrated rant over.

poing
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:45 pm

cgarcia wrote:Hi
Can I just support the need for educational resources aimed at children. I have just bought my son aged 11 a Pi for Xmas (like many I guess) and he's so so keen to learn. I foolishly bought the user guide by Eden Upton from amazon to give him a guide to this new world. It's clearly a great guide but useless to an 11 yr old with no previous experience. I mean what does an 11 yr old need to know about ARM v x86 as the first thing in a user guide!! Thank goodness I found the PDF file on getting started. But this just got it to fire up and has left him on his own. I was expecting to find some simple projects to do so he can learn and do things and learn some more. I eventually found something aimed at children on page 136 of the user guide. But this isn't written for the younger reader!
What is needed are
- some educational tutorials for NEW young users to computer programming
- some clear links on the website that guide NEW young users to where these resources are

By putting the hardware out there without supporting resources you will just turn off the kids we want to learn. Saying resources are going to be available next year will be too late for my son as if he can't find a fun way of learning he'll go onto the PS3 again. We need something next week!

Apologies if this exists somewhere but I can't find it.

How about if you set up a section on the forum to get older users to write up some easy start projects.

Please don't say this is an opportunity for me to help my son to learn. I want him to want to learn for himself. Isn't this what this is about.

Frustrated rant over.
I see your point, but from the beginning it was clear to all regularly reading the forum that the initial release was meant to iron out kinks by the community. Still the sales have taken an unprecedented leap which hopefully means the final goal of the foundation will be met somewhere in the future, as every board sold means some income to the Foundation which they can put to reaching their goal. The problem you have is that the future is not here yet while you've only read the 'for kids' mantra but didn't delve deep enough into the problems of the project.

I think that without the present geek-hype the goal of the Foundation would've been no more than a dream as the task would've proven too big without a vast community while the initiators were handicapped with a mortgaged house to pay for the initial production run from the start.

So this is an opportunity for you to help all the kids across the world to learn for themselves; get involved ;)

richardp
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:20 pm

I see your point, but from the beginning it was clear to all regularly reading the forum that the initial release was meant to iron out kinks by the community. Still the sales have taken an unprecedented leap which hopefully means the final goal of the foundation will be met somewhere in the future, as every board sold means some income to the Foundation which they can put to reaching their goal. The problem you have is that the future is not here yet while you've only read the 'for kids' mantra but didn't delve deep enough into the problems of the project.

I think that without the present geek-hype the goal of the Foundation would've been no more than a dream as the task would've proven too big without a vast community while the initiators were handicapped with a mortgaged house to pay for the initial production run from the start.

So this is an opportunity for you to help all the kids across the world to learn for themselves; get involved ;)
I am one of the early chaps to get my hands on a few Pi's... In total I got 3 of them. I was going to conquer the world! In the end, all my interests were exhausted by broken firmware (ala USB Port) or incomplete examples to achieve anything useful (ala OMX)

The foundation have bent over backwards to achieve this monumental task, but they STILL hold 90% of the deck that can be played. I embarked on making a Slingbox type thing using my Pi, only to find the entire Raspberry-Pi ecosystem is non-existent, the Wiki/Forum is suffering from Bitrot with so many old HOW-TO's that are no longer relevant or valid. Once you get through all this junk, then only do you have a chance of making it useful.
The foundation has a part to play in the ecosystem, but 'Let the others manage it' will un-do all the good work they have done. There are too many incomplete basic things on the Pi, USB being my primary concern.... but fix the Low level drivers, and then quality apps might come forth!
I do embedded program for a living (as it happens, some Broadcom chips too!) , and the Pi frustrates me no-end at how many hoops I have to jump through to get something basic working. Hardware makers forget that the product is 90% software.... without good software the hardware might as-well not exist.

As to the Kids mantra, did anyone ask the kids what they want to have? My kids got a BigTrack for Christmas and now its on the 3rd set of batteries! .. WHY? If gives feedback to commands! My kids have also had RaspberryPi's .. and they never got plugged in after the initial euphoria. It gives no feedback for things! its not Real-world interactive without learning a ton of electronics. If the Pi came with a simple hardware 'Game Reaction Counter' or something with 2 LED's and pushbuttons, then they can see how their actions affect the 'timer'; even this would spark some interest in programming or electronics.

As to what I am doing with my 3 Pi's ... I have 1 XBMC player and 2 doing nothing.

Richard
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Nipper
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:33 pm

Wow ,there was me beginning to think my complaints about the software, lack of understanding and therefore usability by young kids were unjustified when two more P1`s go into the draw labelled unfriendly

jamesh
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:35 pm

Next year will see a dramatic increase in the documentation available, and much more emphasis on the educational side. In some respects 2012 has been a great year, but the huge sales have really thrown a spanner in the works with regard to documentation. Fortunately the Foundation now has the cash to do some really great work here., and tehre will be planty of announcments on what's going to be done in the new year.

@Nipper. 3000 sold PER day. 1 million in the first year. 2 in a drawer is a shame, but not unexpected. There are bound to be people who buy and forget. Even if 50% go in to drawers and fester, that's still 500k devices out there being used. Not bad given predicted sales were 30k for the first year.
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trainboy
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:37 pm

smccain wrote:
trainboy wrote:I totally agree. I to have been in computers since I was 20 years of age, I am now 60, and thought "I'll have a piece of that Pi action" but everything I try has had a stumbling block. As a example (1) - What's so big about Cross Compiling on a Windows platform? I can Cross compile for Atmel ATmega devices on a PC. I can Cross Complile for PIC 18F devices on a PC. Where is the problem? I need a Gcc complier that works on a PC with the associated header files for the Pi environment, and I will transfer the resultant Object file to the Pi and run it. I do not want to load Linux into my PC. I do not need a 2nd occurance of windows in a split screen environment PC. I do not need to have Debian Vs Raspian issues. I am only creating a file that will run on an Arm Cpu.
Example (2) - I want to use I2C bus and program it in 'C' - what a palaver!!! I can see the signals SDA & SCL on a 'scope if I use i2cdetect -y 1 (I have a Rev2 Pi) but will it work from a C program - no it will not.
I2C works fine. I've written a library, shared object, and some C# wrapper code to call the so. All works great for me.

Check this out: http://www.skpang.co.uk/blog/archives/575
And this: http://binerry.de/post/27128825416/rasp ... uino-slave
Edit: Here is the link to the relevant C code for the i2c-arduino project: https://github.com/binerry/RaspberryPi/ ... 2c-arduino

In that c file you will find the code you need to make an i2c call.

Finally, if you want me to send you the code for my library (based on the links above) send me a PM and I'll get you the source. I'll be adding a repo on github soon, but I don't want to push it up until I finish the documentation.
Thanks for the very fast response. I did finally get the I2C bus to work late last night - I had opened the i2c-0 device in the program. Changing it to i2c-1. did the trick. I will look through your examples and get some tips. Do you work in a single C file or multiple module files - jim_i2c.c jim_main.c etc ?
Thanks again.

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Nipper
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:51 pm

OK jamesh I was just rattling cages. I`ve been trying to address the GPIO (so I can try out my breadboards) for the last three days and no matter how I type the few lines of code in all I get is "syntax error".

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Nipper
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:56 pm

So is the money I spent out on the Upton-Halfacree Raspberry Pi User Guide wasted? or is the software at fault.

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Nipper
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:59 pm

Maybe someone out there could help me.

jamesh
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:08 pm

Nipper wrote:Maybe someone out there could help me.
People out there would probably need to know what you are doing and see the code to help....if its back in the thread people ain't gonna see it.
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Nipper
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:24 pm

I`ve been trying to address the GPIO (so I can try out my breadboards) for the last three days and no matter how I type the few lines of code in all I get is "syntax error". I go through the steps as outlined in the Raspberry Pi user guide (£12.99 but not endorsed by the Raspberry Pi Foundation although it`s authored by two of the creators of the Pi) but ending up every time with syntax error

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rurwin
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:30 pm

We can't help you until you post the code that is producing the syntax error, in a [ code ] block.

It's either a typing error on your part or a proof-reading error in the book. Either is possible. But until you post the code, we can not help you.

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KiltedPi
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:34 pm

The problem- I suspect, is not "ordering" what you are doing guys. The MagPi has been set up now, and is THE resource to go to. You can click HERE. And check it out!

In case you haven't heard of it yet- Its a magazine that has lists of projects for you to follow. You won't want to start literally typing any old jargon you've seen online into your RPi device, because then you'll end up with all sorts of results!

My advice is to regime what you are doing. Do it. Then flash (Edit: Re-install the operating system on the card) and start another project.

So:
  • "What do I want to do"
  • "What do I need to do it"
  • "Buy the apparatus/things"
  • "Wait patiently on the mail man!"
  • "Build it. Play with it. Break it"
Get stuck in with any one of the magazines projects! I'm personally showing an eight year old how to reprogram an "OWI" robotic arm from the details in it- and haven't encountered a single problem yet. Which is a shame, because you usually learn alot when you encounter problems in computing.

The project we (Andy - 8 yrs) are working with is in issue 2 - titled " In control - Interfacing for beginners" if you are interested in joining us! I'll keep an eye on this forum :)

Might I suggest however! The very FIRST thing you do with your kid, is have them build a housing for their pi out of lego? so it feels personal to them. The Pi is a very tough little chipset! so don't worry about them breaking it, after all, they are only $25!

The second thing you could do is have them play with the 'scratch' program. Its a sneaky way to get them to learn programming, its colourful and fun!

trainboy
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:19 pm

trainboy wrote:
smccain wrote:
trainboy wrote:I totally agree. I to have been in computers since I was 20 years of age, I am now 60, and thought "I'll have a piece of that Pi action" but everything I try has had a stumbling block. As a example (1) - What's so big about Cross Compiling on a Windows platform? I can Cross compile for Atmel ATmega devices on a PC. I can Cross Complile for PIC 18F devices on a PC. Where is the problem? I need a Gcc complier that works on a PC with the associated header files for the Pi environment, and I will transfer the resultant Object file to the Pi and run it. I do not want to load Linux into my PC. I do not need a 2nd occurance of windows in a split screen environment PC. I do not need to have Debian Vs Raspian issues. I am only creating a file that will run on an Arm Cpu.
Example (2) - I want to use I2C bus and program it in 'C' - what a palaver!!! I can see the signals SDA & SCL on a 'scope if I use i2cdetect -y 1 (I have a Rev2 Pi) but will it work from a C program - no it will not.
I2C works fine. I've written a library, shared object, and some C# wrapper code to call the so. All works great for me.

Check this out: http://www.skpang.co.uk/blog/archives/575
And this: http://binerry.de/post/27128825416/rasp ... uino-slave
Edit: Here is the link to the relevant C code for the i2c-arduino project: https://github.com/binerry/RaspberryPi/ ... 2c-arduino

In that c file you will find the code you need to make an i2c call.

Finally, if you want me to send you the code for my library (based on the links above) send me a PM and I'll get you the source. I'll be adding a repo on github soon, but I don't want to push it up until I finish the documentation.
Thanks for the very fast response. I did finally get the I2C bus to work late last night - I had opened the i2c-0 device in the program. Changing it to i2c-1. did the trick. I will look through your examples and get some tips. Do you work in a single C file or multiple module files - jim_i2c.c jim_main.c etc ?
Thanks again.
Yes I'would like to see your drivers. Let me know where to look. Thank you,smcain, for all your help. PS is this a PM ?

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Nipper
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:28 pm

rurwin wrote:We can't help you until you post the code that is producing the syntax error, in a [ code ] block.

It's either a typing error on your part or a proof-reading error in the book. Either is possible. But until you post the code, we can not help you.
I start at page 190 of the RaspberryPi Users Guide and get as far as page 194 third line
import RPi.GPIO as GPIO
and then it gives a syntax fault message

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joan
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:36 pm

You made a mistake in the third paragraph on page 193. :?

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Nipper
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:45 pm

There are only 2 paras on 193?

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joan
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:46 pm

I was being sarcastic.

If you want help post your code and the syntax errors you are getting.

You have not given enough information to know if there is any fault.

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Nipper
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:02 pm

wget http://raspberry-gpio-python.googlecode ... 2.0.tar.gz
tar xvzf RPi.GPIO-0.2.0.tar.gz
cd RPi.GPIO-0.2.0
sudo python setup.py install
import RPi.GPIO as GPIO

Now I get Syntax Error message. I have retyped these 5 lines of code so many times now I am past frustration

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croston
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:20 pm

That is an ancient version if RPi.GPIO! The latest version is a default package in Raspbian. The rate of change in software at the moment on Raspberry Pi is faster than can possibly be managed in print.

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joan
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:21 pm

The first four lines look legal from a command prompt.

The final line (import) looks like it would only be legal within a Python program.

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Nipper
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Re: "Beginners" put off...

Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:28 pm

Now you`re losing me. I thought it was python I was using.Thats why I was downloading an update from googlecode.com/

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