W. H. Heydt
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:52 am

JimmyN wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:Is it possible that the way to tell V1.0 from V1.1 is whether the controller board is already connected to the panel or not when you get it? (If so, I have a V1.0 unit, and converting it to V1.1 would be desirable, but I'd be happy to buy a V1.1 unit if that's what it takes to get one with truly adjustable brightness.)
Mine has "Raspberry PI Display V1.0" printed right under the Raspberry Pi logo. I assume the new ones would have "V1.1".

That's a real bummer, I bet they still won't sell the controller separate so we can upgrade, and spending another $60 just to get brightness control is a bit out of my reach.
Given the way I do projects (one for test and development, then one to use as intended) that's not actually a problem. What would be good is if there were some official word on a way to upgrade an existing v1.0 or at least a statement of the changes.

H1tscount
Posts: 1
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:20 am

Have a V1.1 display driver board here, and backlight adjust is working nicely.

Code: Select all

sudo su
echo 80 > /sys/class/backlight/rpi_backlight/brightness
exit
The value of 80 was listed near the beginning of this thread, and I find it comfortable as well as a significant power reduction over the stock 255. Watching a video on youtube the total power draw (measured with a Killawatt at the wall) dropped from 8w to 6w with just this change.

I also want to second the thought that using the USB output from the display board seems to cause a bit of voltage loss. After comparing many USB cables to using the GPIO pins, the pins win in a clean sweep of the voltage game. Every USB cable of 14 tried caused the undervoltage square, where using the pins it never occurred.

I am wishing for something more than 800x480. Anyone know if the larger screen that has been hinted at might be a thing?

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tonyhansen
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:14 pm

So the big questions are: what changed between the v1.0 and v1.1 board, can one just buy the upgraded video board, and is the change something a maker could do themselves?

ironicdemise
Posts: 15
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:10 pm

I only got this board within the past few months and must've gotten a v1.0 board...
Kept coming back here to see if there were any answers but now I see there's a v1.1 and no real information on a way to get this functionality without buying a whole new screen?

Wonder if I can get in touch with the seller and see what they can do.

GekkePrutser
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:09 pm

Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:56 pm

This would be really great to know yes, it would be so great if we could fix this ourselves (fine soldering is not a problem) or if we can just order a new board without having to get a whole new display.

I wish the foundation wasn't so tight-lipped about things like this.. It's not like they need the secrecy to maximise profits, they're only a non-profit foundation. Just tell us the truth please.

Even the schematic would help (it's supposed to be open source after all). Though I have a feeling the 'bug' is in the firmware of the microcontroller on the board rather than an actual wiring fault. Or perhaps the display backlight is wired to a microcontroller pin that doesn't support PWM?

Edit: I wonder which chip it is, I'll have a quick look, gordon did mention at one stage that it was a microcontroller they were using for PWM so the markings should identify the possible candidates.

Edit2: Ok, U6 is an Atmel Tiny88 which is the most likely candidate for the PWM. The chip on the flex-PCB is a touchpanel controller so that's not it (good, because that would mean replacing the display in any case). That means that a new controller board should fix it (after all, the wiring of the backlight on the display itself is good, otherwise it wouldn't be able to turn it on and off).

If it's a wrong pin on the Tiny88 it shouldn't be too hard to make a fix though it will require some VERY fine soldering, it's a QFN32 package as far as I can see. That means the pins are 0.5mm apart. Still, I've done it before (with Kynar wire it's doable). It'd probably require making a bridge with a single wire from one of the pins of U6 to somewhere else on the board.

But if the error is in the firmware, updating the Tiny88 firmware in situ would be pretty tough as I see it.. I see some test points but I don't think they're ICSP points for the atmel. We'd also have to actually *have* the new firmware binary of course, and solder multiple wires to U6 to connect to the ICSP programmer (which would be needed too), possibly some pins positioned side by side so no room for error. Still, if I'd have the firmware file I'd totally try it :)

Of course it could also be a combination of both: requiring a bridge to a new pin that supports PWM, and an update of the firmware to use this pin and the PWM functionality. It's hard to say without more information.

Edit3: I just had a look at the tiny88 document and I see the port that's usually used for PWM is OC1A, pin 13. Though it's a bit strange that this 32-pin chip seems to have only 1 PWM whereas the 8-pin tiny85 has 2. But this one seems to be super featured with phase and frequency selection besides the usual duty cycles etc.

Anyway this pin 13 is probably the right one, as all the references to PWM mention this pin. On my 1.0 board there's a trace connected to it leading to a 33 ohm resistor (R1), transistor (Q1) and then another via which I presume connects to the big flatflex connector J7. It goes underneath it so I can't follow it there. I also couldn't visually confirm the trace end to end as it was going under J7 before even going the transistor but it checked out with an ohmmeter.

So this looks like it is properly configured to drive the display with PWM (the transistor being there to switch the actual power to the backlight, the tiny88 couldn't drive this much current). So at the moment my best guess is indeed a firmware issue in the Tiny88. As they only started implenting this feature after the boards were shipped, it may have been an oversight in the code.

If anyone has the V1.1 version, could they please take a highres closeup photo of the PCB traces around U6 and especially the one leading up to the little via (little circle where the trace goes through to the other side) underneath the touch panel connector J4?

A comparison would probably reveal some information as to what has changed (and if nothing has, it would pretty much confirm a firmware issue)

Edit4: I just thought of something: if a board or firmware fix on the Tiny88 proves impossible, perhaps it would be possible to wire the raspberry's PWM pin into the backlight transistor. I don't see why not, but it wouldn't be ideal as you'd lose the built-in operating system control under /sys/class/backlight. It would have to be controlled with some custom code. And worse, that raspberry pin is shared with the audio out so that couldn't be used then. An external micro is also an option but even messier. I'll have a look at the pi's pwm pin idea tomorrow.

PS: Sorry for digging so deep into this but as a maker I don't like taking 'no' for an answer :) If there's any way to fix it I'd rather do that than buying a new board.

jdb
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:31 pm

Yes, there has been a point release for the DSI display hardware.

No, you can't modify a v1.0 board to be a v1.1 board. There was an obscure problem found with the backlight power supply (takes 5v input and boosts to a current-limited ~18V or so) that when driven at the PWM frequency we programmed into the Atmel, current surges were seen at the 5v input. These current surges would have undoubtedly led to stability problems in the field, so as an interim solution an on-off control was implemented for v1.0 boards.

Yes, the firmware in the Atmel is different from v1.0 to v1.1 boards; no, you can't upgrade it in the field. The firmware is used by the DSI driver (GPU side) to differentiate between a v1.0 board and a v1.1 board. The v1.1 board adds an RC filter on the Atmel's PWM output which allows for correct modulation of the backlight current (and thus brightness), so for v1.1 boards the firmware pays attention to more than just the top bit of the backlight brightness value.
Rockets are loud.
https://astro-pi.org

GekkePrutser
Posts: 36
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:25 pm

jdb wrote:Yes, there has been a point release for the DSI display hardware.

No, you can't modify a v1.0 board to be a v1.1 board. There was an obscure problem found with the backlight power supply (takes 5v input and boosts to a current-limited ~18V or so) that when driven at the PWM frequency we programmed into the Atmel, current surges were seen at the 5v input. These current surges would have undoubtedly led to stability problems in the field, so as an interim solution an on-off control was implemented for v1.0 boards.

Yes, the firmware in the Atmel is different from v1.0 to v1.1 boards; no, you can't upgrade it in the field. The firmware is used by the DSI driver (GPU side) to differentiate between a v1.0 board and a v1.1 board. The v1.1 board adds an RC filter on the Atmel's PWM output which allows for correct modulation of the backlight current (and thus brightness), so for v1.1 boards the firmware pays attention to more than just the top bit of the backlight brightness value.
Thanks for the clear answer! I really appreciate the openness. That makes sense. Too bad it's not fixable.. I wonder if powering the display board with a separate PSU would solve it?

So the obvious question: Any chance to put some 1.1 boards up for sale? Since you have a production line of those anyway. The display pricing is pretty high so I think a lot of people would prefer to upgrade their controller board instead. But I know this would cost you and the suppliers in terms of stocking an extra SKU etc so it may not be possible. And of course they might be prohibitively priced, I'm not sure what the most expensive part of the set is.

If it's not possible to sell them separately I might still pursue alternative options with my board, such as trying to PWM it from another source such as the raspberry itself. I could try to see if there's frequencies the current surges don't occur with. But it's not a great solution of course due to it not being integrated and taking up the only PWM pin on the pi. I'll think about it.

Thanks in any case for the explanation, I think a lot of people were interested.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:02 am

jdb wrote:Yes, there has been a point release for the DSI display hardware.

No, you can't modify a v1.0 board to be a v1.1 board. There was an obscure problem found with the backlight power supply (takes 5v input and boosts to a current-limited ~18V or so) that when driven at the PWM frequency we programmed into the Atmel, current surges were seen at the 5v input. These current surges would have undoubtedly led to stability problems in the field, so as an interim solution an on-off control was implemented for v1.0 boards.

Yes, the firmware in the Atmel is different from v1.0 to v1.1 boards; no, you can't upgrade it in the field. The firmware is used by the DSI driver (GPU side) to differentiate between a v1.0 board and a v1.1 board. The v1.1 board adds an RC filter on the Atmel's PWM output which allows for correct modulation of the backlight current (and thus brightness), so for v1.1 boards the firmware pays attention to more than just the top bit of the backlight brightness value.
Thanks a bunch for that.

I have a couple of overlapping question to those of the previous poster...

Considering that the US tends to sit at the end of the supply line and we often have delays in new versions of Pi-related items showing up, does the RPF/RPT have any data on whether or not all the v1.0 displays are cleared from inventory or not?

Is there a method to check the version of display one has? (It is virtually certain that mine is a v1.0 since I ordered it on release day.)

As already noted, a replacement controller board would be a good item to make available. I'd be willing to pay at least $20 to replace the one on my v1.0 display. Making controller boards available for purchase would be good customer relations, as it would provide an upgrade path fro early adopters and encourage us to continue to do so.

Regardless of which way things go with the display, I'll be getting at least one more--not as a replacement for the one I have, but for the use I originally intended that needs to be able to adjust brightness. While I would buy a v1.1 controller board, I may very well keep my display as a v1.0 unit for it's "historical" value.

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Greg Erskine
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:36 am

jdb wrote:Yes, there has been a point release for the DSI display hardware.

No, you can't modify a v1.0 board to be a v1.1 board. There was an obscure problem found with the backlight power supply (takes 5v input and boosts to a current-limited ~18V or so) that when driven at the PWM frequency we programmed into the Atmel, current surges were seen at the 5v input. These current surges would have undoubtedly led to stability problems in the field, so as an interim solution an on-off control was implemented for v1.0 boards.

Yes, the firmware in the Atmel is different from v1.0 to v1.1 boards; no, you can't upgrade it in the field. The firmware is used by the DSI driver (GPU side) to differentiate between a v1.0 board and a v1.1 board. The v1.1 board adds an RC filter on the Atmel's PWM output which allows for correct modulation of the backlight current (and thus brightness), so for v1.1 boards the firmware pays attention to more than just the top bit of the backlight brightness value.
Thanks jdb

I would be interested in purchasing a V1.1 pcb if that option was available in the future.

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tonyhansen
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:19 am

I too would be interested in the v1.1 boards. (I have two displays, so would need two.)

backmailingbox
Posts: 46
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:51 am

Tomyhansen: I am in same situation too.
But they have solution. They delete posts when you write about it.

DirkS
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Location: Essex, UK

Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:45 am

backmailingbox wrote:Tomyhansen: I am in same situation too.
But they have solution. They delete posts when you write about it.
So why is this topic still alive?
Oh, and what about your topic at viewtopic.php?f=108&t=134390&p=894761#p894761 ?

backmailingbox
Posts: 46
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:54 am

DirkS,

when other similiar topic are alive it doesn't mean that they don't delete posts.
My post where I complained that we payed for buggy and problematic displays
was really deleted
It is fact!

I bought two displays and now should I buy new ones?
Where?
When I buy new ... will I receive version 1.1 or buggy 1.0 ?
Why isn't this fact written in specification in any shop?
I feel that I was cheated.

I am agreeable to buy new driver board.
Not possible....

So I paid 160 eur for buggy displays...
Is it ok from foundation?

backmailingbox
Posts: 46
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:24 am

Can anybody from foundation write here if this is real end of 1.0 version story?

No chance to buy only driver board?
No exchange monitor?
No sale for old buyers?

For me is better to know bad true but I need to know real true.
Should I really bye again new displays without any advantage?

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tonyhansen
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:42 pm

jdb wrote:Yes, there has been a point release for the DSI display hardware.
....
I wanted to thank you for all of the solid information on what is different between the v1.0 and v1.1 controller boards. It is definitely appreciated.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 9207
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:28 pm

backmailingbox wrote:DirkS,

when other similiar topic are alive it doesn't mean that they don't delete posts.
My post where I complained that we payed for buggy and problematic displays
was really deleted
It is fact!
Odd...my v1.0 display works without problems. Sure...I can't control the .backlight level, but for the uses I've put it to so far, that's not a "bug", just the lack of a desired feature. I have simply held off getting a second board in hopes that an update of some kind would provide that feature...and that has now happened.

At this point, my concern is that if I buy a display, will it be a v1.1 or a "we're clearing out old inventory" v1.0?

backmailingbox
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:04 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote: Odd...my v1.0 display works without problems. Sure...I can't control the .backlight level, but for the uses I've put it to so far, that's not a "bug", just the lack of a desired feature. I have simply held off getting a second board in hopes that an update of some kind would provide that feature...and that has now happened.

At this point, my concern is that if I buy a display, will it be a v1.1 or a "we're clearing out old inventory" v1.0?
In case that I knew this information before buy it is ok.
But this info was not in available in any specification
Now when you buy any display, brightness control is absolute standard feature
Also here it took some months when we received information that this is problem of 1.0
It is not fair to customers.

it is nice that you are satisfied with display where is brightness on 100% the whole time 24/7
I think that it is only one display in your home with this feature.

I have at home 2 monitors connected to my PC - brightness control is OK
I have android phone - brightness control is OK
My wife has android phone - brightness control is OK
I have 2 plasma TV - brightness control is OK
I have 1 lcd TV - brightness control is OK
I have 2 LG android tablets - brightness control is OK
I have logitech squeezbox - brightness control is OK
my wife has PC monitor - brightness control is OK
I have display in my car - brightness control is OK

only 2 pieces of official raspberry pi display are not able to control brightness

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:39 pm

backmailingbox wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: Odd...my v1.0 display works without problems. Sure...I can't control the .backlight level, but for the uses I've put it to so far, that's not a "bug", just the lack of a desired feature. I have simply held off getting a second board in hopes that an update of some kind would provide that feature...and that has now happened.

At this point, my concern is that if I buy a display, will it be a v1.1 or a "we're clearing out old inventory" v1.0?
In case that I knew this information before buy it is ok.
But this info was not in available in any specification
Now when you buy any display, brightness control is absolute standard feature
Also here it took some months when we received information that this is problem of 1.0
It is not fair to customers.
The RPF display was launched last September. It is not yet March, so it has been on the market for just a bit less than 6 months. If you buy early versions of *anything* you are taking a risk that flaws and faults will be discovered and that fixes and upgrades will be made to future versions. I should point out in this context that the original Pi Model B went through...256MB RAM to 512MB RAM, 140mA polyfuses for the USB ports to zero Ohm resistors to nothing there at all. If you had bought a 256MB Pi B with polyfuses, would you be complaining that later versions were better and you were hard done by?
it is nice that you are satisfied with display where is brightness on 100% the whole time 24/7
I think that it is only one display in your home with this feature.
I am satisfied that it does what it was stated to do. I am--mildly--disappointed that variable brightness wasn't part of the initial product, but since I ordered one as soon as they were launched, I'm not going to complain about that. It comes as a typical issue for "early adopters". I also own Pi Bs with 256MB RAM and polyfuses and I don't complain about them, either.
I have at home 2 monitors connected to my PC - brightness control is OK
I have android phone - brightness control is OK
My wife has android phone - brightness control is OK
I have 2 plasma TV - brightness control is OK
I have 1 lcd TV - brightness control is OK
I have 2 LG android tablets - brightness control is OK
I have logitech squeezbox - brightness control is OK
my wife has PC monitor - brightness control is OK
I have display in my car - brightness control is OK
I have a monitor connected to several PCs and SBCs (a cascade of a 4-port HDMI/USB and 8-port VGA/PS-2 KVMs), my wife has a monitor connected to her PC. My grandson has a monitor connected to the Pi he uses. For running convention registration a couple of weeks ago, I took 12 monitors (9 were in use, 3 were spares in case of need). I almost never have any cause to adjust the brightness on any of them, save to turn them all the way up on first setup, so they might as well only do on or off.
only 2 pieces of official raspberry pi display are not able to control brightness
I have only one RPF display. This is for two reasons. One, I have held off getting a second in hopes that the brightness adjustment (which I want for a particular project) would show up sooner or later, and two, I haven't solved all the other issues with making the project work the way I want (I have a problem getting metadata in mplayer to redirect to a terminal window when run from cron), so there has been no rush to get another display. Now that the v1.1 *does* have brightness adjustment, I will probably put more effort into solving the other issues, then get a display for the project and complete it.

In the mean time, I agree with some sentiments on this thread that making a bare v1.1 controller board available would be a pretty good idea, especially for people who are very upset that the v1.0 can't control brightness, but who--if a new controller is made available--will probably complain about needing to *buy* a new controller board, no matter how reasonable the price.

GekkePrutser
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:01 pm

I don't think the comparison with the polyfuse issue is a fair one. They're easily bypassed and I still use one every day with the USB ports hard wired to the input. The PSU I use has fuses too anyway. Nor is the comparison with the 256MB model as that was an explicitly stated spec.

For the backlight issue a workaround is much harder though I still intend to look for one of no other option becomes available.

But because brightness control was never explicitly promised I have no issue paying for a new controller board if it's 10-20€ or so. Though I also agree it is a feature that could be reasonably expected.

But I'm really glad the reason is clear now. If I do go for a workaround I know what to look for.

backmailingbox
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:30 pm

Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:05 pm

[quote="W. H. Heydt"]
The RPF display was launched last September. It is not yet March, so it has been on the market for just a bit less than 6 months. If you buy early versions of *anything* you are taking a risk that flaws and faults will be discovered and that fixes and upgrades will be made to future versions. I should point out in this context that the original Pi Model B went through...256MB RAM to 512MB RAM, 140mA polyfuses for the USB ports to zero Ohm resistors to nothing there at all. If you had bought a 256MB Pi B with polyfuses, would you be complaining that later versions were better and you were hard done by?
[quote]

I can not complain that Rasp Pi has only 256 MB RAM because this information was in every, really every shop.
In every specification I could read it and before my buy I could decide. Is it enough for me or not? It is up to me. But raspi display brigtness information wasn't available. Totally no info about brightness before buy.

[quote="W. H. Heydt"]
I am satisfied that it does what it was stated to do. I am--mildly--disappointed that variable brightness wasn't part of the initial product, but since I ordered one as soon as they were launched, I'm not going to complain about that. It comes as a typical issue for "early adopters". I also own Pi Bs with 256MB RAM and polyfuses and I don't complain about them, either.
[quote]

So you are mildly dissapointed. I am totally dissapointed. I feel cheated. Because I have bought 2 pieces.
And for me 160 eur is not small amount.

Do you think that it is fair that we bought display without brigtness control and now
anybody can buy cheaper same display with correct display brightness control?
You really don't see that it is not correct?

I can't believe that Foundation has such behaviour.
I feel cheated.

Another problem is that here in the official forum were many, really many confusing posts.
Nobody from Foundation wrote where is the problem. For 2 months! If I had this information 2 months ago I immediatelly send displays back to seller. Now I can not do it.

So I have 2 nice 100% brightness displays and I can buy another 2 pieces.
So 160 + 160 = 320 eur.
Is Raspberry pi really cheap PC ?

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Greg Erskine
Posts: 78
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:27 pm

hi backmailingbox,

You can turn the display off, so you have 100% brightness or 0% brightness.

Thanks to jdb we now know the reason why. :D

I understand your feelings but it is not going to help posting multiple times, the thread will just be closed.

You need to look at the Raspberry Pi as learning tool rather than a consumer grade appliance.

regards
Greg

backmailingbox
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:49 pm

Greg Erskine wrote:hi backmailingbox,

You can turn the display off, so you have 100% brightness or 0% brightness.

Thanks to jdb we now know the reason why. :D

I understand your feelings but it is not going to help posting multiple times, the thread will just be closed.

You need to look at the Raspberry Pi as learning tool rather than a consumer grade appliance.

regards
Greg
I payed with real money not with learning money.

backmailingbox
Posts: 46
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:47 pm

I just found that I have one display ver 1.1 and second one is 1.0
I bought every display from another seller in another time.
All tests until now I did on older one....

So just now I have in front of me both displays.

I can confirm:
1.1 is really standard display with continuos brightness control,
perfect display, possible use during night for example
it is working like standard display

1.0 is not display, it is bulb..... for me it is not usable

If anybody wants some more info I can provide

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GTR2Fan
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:57 pm

backmailingbox wrote:1.0 is not display, it is bulb..... for me it is not usable
I'll gladly take it off your hands for nothing if it's of no use to you. ;)
Pi2B Mini-PC/Media Centre: ARM=1GHz (+3), Core=500MHz, v3d=500MHz, h264=333MHz, RAM=DDR2-1200 (+6/+4/+4+schmoo). Sandisk Ultra HC-I 32GB microSD card on '50=100' OCed slot (42MB/s read) running Raspbian/KODI16, Seagate 3.5" 1.5TB HDD mass storage.

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Greg Erskine
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Re: Sleep Mode - and or turn off backlight?

Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:04 pm

backmailingbox wrote:I payed with real money not with learning money.
What's learning money?

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