PeteX
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Fri May 25, 2012 9:10 pm

Hi Dave,

Git looks perfect, you have your own branch and you've successfully cloned it. You'll be able to add .blend files to the media directory, then push them back. Once you're happy with them, I can easily merge them into the main distribution.

Yes I'm working on the code. I've made quite a few changes this week, but I haven't pushed them back because they aren't complete, and would get in the way of people attempting to run the code. When it's finished, the idea is that the server will send a message telling the client to download a scene from a certain place. The client will download the scene description file, plus the associated media files which are required in order to display the objects. The current state is:

Working

- Designing scenes in Blender, then exporting them.
- Assembling the media files referenced by the scene.
- Downloading files to the client, and caching them as specified in the HTTP headers.

Not working

- File compression. The egg and bam files used by Panda compress quite well, so it's worth doing this. I want to do this now, rather than seeing it as an enhancement for later, because it affects the format of the scenes. If I did it later, it would be a nuisance supporting or migrating existing scenes with uncompressed data.

- Creating the scene as specified in the scene description.

As you can see these changes are pretty complicated, so it will take a while to get everything implemented and working.

Once I've done that I'll try and work something out with Windows support. Until then (to answer your private message) there isn't much point in trying to run scons unless you want to debug the code yourself! You'll be sure to hit some Linux/Windows incompatibility that will stop it working.

PeteX
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Fri May 25, 2012 9:14 pm

Oh, BTW, what do you mean about the blends being set up a certain way? The scene descriptions certainly are, but you haven't seen them yet. :) The blend files for the building and the player weren't intentionally set up in any special way.

The naming convention is deliberate, BTW. We need to know where all the assets come from, so we can demonstrate that they are available under open source licences. That is the reason for the long filenames like DeviantArt_GoodTextures_Grass_Texture_02.jpg. That is to remind me that the texture came from DeviantArt, user GoodTextures.

specsdude
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Sat May 26, 2012 11:50 am

It's fine, I read this page:

https://github.com/PeteX/friendlyfruit/ ... r-To-Panda

which covers mostly what I wanted to know.

The only reason I got confused is because when I looked at the blend files for the tree, the human and the cathedral, they were all green and funky. ??
Arise! Arise, riders of Théoden! Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered - a sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride! Ride to ruin, and the world's ending! Forth Éorlingas!

PeteX
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Mon May 28, 2012 9:57 am

Ah, they're green when you select them. Was that what you meant? That just happens because of an oddity with Blender. Objects which are members of groups show up green, for some reason.

(BTW, do you find you get into a situation with Blender where you can't see things because they're black on black? For example, this happens if you select an object, tab into edit mode, then deselect the mesh. Unless you've got a bright background, you can't see the mesh because deselected nodes and edges are drawn in black. I know you can change the theme, but I'm surprised that's necessary, so I wonder if I'm doing something wrong.)

doctorwho
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Mon May 28, 2012 6:15 pm

I'm not a particularly good coder( read as " a really bad coder") but would love to alpha test the game :D . Also if "quests" can be boiled down to just code (with a library of animations) then this would let people make their own quests fairly easily (with a starter template perhaps). If this ever does come about I would love to try my hand at making some.

PeteX
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Tue May 29, 2012 9:45 pm

Hi Doctorwho,

Sounds good! We're a long way from an alpha test as yet, but help testing will be very useful when things are a bit more complete.

I'm certainly hoping the quests can work in the way you describe. What I want is a learning curve that isn't too steep. You will be able to download the game and make simple changes in a reasonably straightforward way: you might script quests, add new monsters of an existing type, or pull bits of the terrain around in Blender. If you feel like doing something more challenging, you could for example draw a complete new monster—but you are not forced to do anything as hard as that.

...

I've just pushed some revisions to Github. There isn't actually much to see yet, but there are some quite big changes under the hood. When you start the client, it is now sent a message telling it to download a scene from a certain URL. It downloads the scene description plus all the models and textures, then uncompresses them. The next step involves the client displaying the objects listed in the scene description, but I haven't got to that stage yet.

There is also a script called export-scene, which takes a .blend file and outputs a scene description. Basically you link objects from other .blend files to create your scene. You then use Blender's custom properties to annotate the links with the information which is required by the scene description (the name of the egg file that will be used for each object at runtime, and a few other bits and pieces). I'll write this up properly once I've written the code for creating scenes from scene descriptions. :D

PeteX
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Wed May 30, 2012 6:39 pm

The client now loads objects from a scene! If you pull the latest changes, you will be able to look around my demo scene, with the cathedral plus three trees. (Unfortunately you don't start in a very good place, so you won't see anything at all to begin with. Turn with the arrow keys until you see the cathedral in the distance, then walk towards it.)

The client doesn't yet load the terrain or the skybox. I'm going to be working on that next.

ikesmasher
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Wed May 30, 2012 8:40 pm

Hey guys.
I havent gotten a rasPi yet (I do plan on ordering when demand gets a little less...serious, ya know?) and i havent read through a large part of the thread in the middle there, but I can help with some 3D modeling if need be. More so in a manmade scenery type environment. So if you want me to try to come up with something just let me know. And if thats the case, a poly count limit would be nice too, as im not really privy to how much the Pi will be able to render. So just let me know :)

Andrew

PeteX
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Thu May 31, 2012 3:43 pm

Hi Ikesmasher,

I haven't got my Pi yet either! I didn't bother registering straight away because I didn't realise it was a queue. :(

Thank you for offering to do 3D modelling—it's great that so many people are interested in doing that, because I'm primarily a coder. (I can model up to a point, but it takes me a long time, and the results are nothing special.)

Jim knows more about poly counts than I do, but my understanding is that the Pi can do around 40M per second, so I assume you'd get a reasonable refresh rate with a scene containing around a million. This then has to be split between terrain, fixed objects, and players/NPCs.
More so in a manmade scenery type environment.
I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying you're interested in designing parts of the scenery (buildings, trees) rather than the player and NPC characters? Either way there will be plenty of interesting projects, but one thing to keep in mind with the scenery itself is that we can get generic buildings ready made from 3Dwarehouse. We might need to model buildings if we have specific requirements for them, but otherwise we can probably save time by getting something ready made.

ikesmasher
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Thu May 31, 2012 8:56 pm

mainly so.

I have tried doing some skin modeling, but i never got past an unfinished pair of FPS arms. If you really need something though, ill keep working at something i just need something specific, ya know?
I wouldnt count on me to come up with anything organic related, but if i keep working (plus it gives me something to do in free time) i might.

specsdude
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Thu May 31, 2012 11:43 pm

Just a quick question:
What are peoples relative time zones? I'm in UK so that's GMT 00. But replies from pete always seem to come at unusual times...
Arise! Arise, riders of Théoden! Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered - a sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride! Ride to ruin, and the world's ending! Forth Éorlingas!

PeteX
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:57 pm

Hi Ikesmasher,

Would you be interested in fixing the trees? The current trees don't look too bad, but they use a lot of polygons. You can get away with having a handful in a scene, but a forest would be a complete no-go.

Originally I was thinking that we'd need multiple levels of detail, and all the complicated stuff connected with that. I've just been wondering if there is an easier option, though. What if the trees were constructed as a lollipop shape, with a trunk and then a roughly spherical shape representing the crown. The foliage could then be UV-mapped onto the sphere, with transparency for areas where there are no leaves. Hopefully this would allow a tree to be built out of a handful of polygons.

Multiple levels of detail would make the trees more realistic when players are close to them, but IMHO it makes sense to kick this particular can down the road... It would be nice to get something working before worrying about that kind of complexity.

BTW, I'm in the UK as well. My work doesn't have regular hours; that's why I end up posting at funny times. 8-)

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SN
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:09 pm

You need to implement LOD Levels of Distance - you use very simple low poly models for distance and more detailed versiona the closer you get - 3 levels are as much as you need to go
Steve N – binatone mk4->intellivision->zx81->spectrum->cbm64->cpc6128->520stfm->pc->raspi ?

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SN
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:10 pm

Or Levels Of Detail even
Steve N – binatone mk4->intellivision->zx81->spectrum->cbm64->cpc6128->520stfm->pc->raspi ?

ikesmasher
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:19 pm

PeteX wrote:Hi Ikesmasher,

Would you be interested in fixing the trees? The current trees don't look too bad, but they use a lot of polygons. You can get away with having a handful in a scene, but a forest would be a complete no-go.

Originally I was thinking that we'd need multiple levels of detail, and all the complicated stuff connected with that. I've just been wondering if there is an easier option, though. What if the trees were constructed as a lollipop shape, with a trunk and then a roughly spherical shape representing the crown. The foliage could then be UV-mapped onto the sphere, with transparency for areas where there are no leaves. Hopefully this would allow a tree to be built out of a handful of polygons.

Multiple levels of detail would make the trees more realistic when players are close to them, but IMHO it makes sense to kick this particular can down the road... It would be nice to get something working before worrying about that kind of complexity.

BTW, I'm in the UK as well. My work doesn't have regular hours; that's why I end up posting at funny times. 8-)
Hm, never did plants before. As long as the texture is there, i dont see why i couldnt.

At long, long, distances, you can go REALLY low. Actually, games like the elder scrolls do a single plane that rotates towards the character, so maybe something like that. I dont know how resource hungry it would be to rotate that many things though. But if that doesnt work, you can make the trunk a cube, and etc etc. but i guess i could TRY...

Lastb0isct
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:22 pm

I love the idea of this...I'd be willing to help in anyway. Can we have an update on where we are with this? Any progress being made?

specsdude
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:37 pm

Lastb0isct wrote:I love the idea of this...I'd be willing to help in anyway. Can we have an update on where we are with this? Any progress being made?
Any help is GOOD!! :P

Progress is actually being made:
PeteX is working away trying to look like he's doing something useful
I'm rigging my wolf and hopefully giving it some animations
I'm sure there's others but no idea atm.

If you want to help, ideas in themselves are good. Or, if you know how to use Blender or Gimp, you could make some game art. See here for details.

Alternatively (this is the BAD option), sit back and watch us make the game. :roll:

And PeteX, I'll see about those trees.
Arise! Arise, riders of Théoden! Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered - a sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride! Ride to ruin, and the world's ending! Forth Éorlingas!

ikesmasher
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:23 am

by monsters do you mean harmful animals or are you looking for a few more make believe type things as well>

specsdude
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:40 am

First attempt:

Image

Don't think I've got the texture settings right but too tired to bother around. :arrow: sleep!

I found a site called Mayang.com that offers loads of free textures for commercial / non-commercial use, check it out here.

Nite nite...
Arise! Arise, riders of Théoden! Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered - a sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride! Ride to ruin, and the world's ending! Forth Éorlingas!

specsdude
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:46 am

ikesmasher wrote:by monsters do you mean harmful animals or are you looking for a few more make believe type things as well>
IDK what PeteX means. I guess you can make whatever you like really, as long it's not vulgar/offensive. So stuff like dragons, trolls, giant wasps would be classed as monsters? Although Pete chose wolf.

Google says:
mon·ster/ˈmänstər
Noun: An imaginary creature that is typically large, ugly, and frightening.
So a wolf isn't actually a monster... :| Eh, who cares!
Arise! Arise, riders of Théoden! Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered - a sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride! Ride to ruin, and the world's ending! Forth Éorlingas!

ikesmasher
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:51 am

hm ok, ill mess around and see if i manage to come up with anything at all for trees and for monsters.

specsdude
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:29 am

Update on my tree:

Image

I tried using transparency between the leaves but couldn't get it right. So that's my finished tree!

I'll try doing a pull request and see what happens... :twisted:
Arise! Arise, riders of Théoden! Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered - a sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride! Ride to ruin, and the world's ending! Forth Éorlingas!

PeteX
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:18 pm

Hi SN,

I can see that you need LOD for something like a flight-sim, where the user can look down at a large area. For other games I think it's probably nice to have, but not essential. Check out this tree model for example. It's 324 polygons, apparently. Now imagine you built a scene containing 200 trees, and let's say that the player can see at most half of them at a time. That's 32,000 polygons: peanuts even for a Pi.

Hi Ikesmasher,

Have you tried the Unity engine? It does the same trick with a single plane, and you can get some really strange effects if it's not tuned properly. You walk up to a tree and it kind of stretches itself, as the plane turns into a 3D object. I imagine they try to avoid jumps by switching from the plane to a squashed 3D model, then gradually filling it out. Fine if it's far enough away that you can't see it, but very odd if you're standing underneath it at the time.
PeteX is working away trying to look like he's doing something useful.
I keep myself entertained, anyway! :lol: (I'll post an update at the end of the message.)

Glad to hear the wolf is still going well.
by monsters do you mean harmful animals or are you looking for a few more make believe type things as well
That's a hard one to answer. Remember, we are making a kit for creating multi-player games, not a multi-player game as such. My interest is dark fantasy, so from my selfish point of view I would say yes—zombies and ghosts and wraiths and skeletons please! But that's for the world I want to create using the kit. The kit itself, I suppose, needs a variety of art, to help people get started with whatever kind of world they want to create. Dragons, trolls and giant wasps would all be good for that!

Mayang.com looks pretty good, and their licence seems suitable for open source. That's a good catch—a lot of these sites use licences which don't work for products that can be redistributed by the end users. (If we start making use of a lot of their textures, I might send them an email just to check they are happy with this, as they don't seem to have thought about it when writing their licence.)

Thanks for the pull request for the tree. I think perhaps I didn't give the best advice when I suggested making a lollipop shape. Looking at the TurboSquid tree, the artist seems to have created a number of planes which have images of branches and leaves UV-mapped onto them. By arranging these planes in 3D space, he created the appearance of a complete tree.

Do you think it would be worth trying to do something similar? It seems to have worked well for the TurboSquid tree, perhaps it can work well for us too. (BTW, if anyone is wondering, we can't just bung TurboSquid $20, and use their tree. Their licence is definitely incompatible with open source.)

Hi Lastb0isct,

Thanks for the interest! What would you be interested in working on? Are you more inclined towards art or code, first of all?

...

Progress...

We now have terrain with hills. You can also create a stencil texture, which allows you to choose different surfaces for the terrain. In the terrain I have made, you can choose between bare earth and grass, but of course you can change those textures for other things. You could have snow and rock, or whatever fitted with the landscape you were making.

I've got one more thing to do on this. I need to include the terrain and terrain textures in the list of things that get downloaded from the network when the client is started. Once that is done, I'll push the revisions and those of you with access to Linux will be able to give it a try.

I then need to do the same thing for the skybox, so you get a sky texture rather than a black background.

After that, I want to change gear a bit. I want to produce a version that runs on Windows, for those of you who don't have easy access to a Linux machine. We also need a website with our own forums and things, because the project is growing and we can't continue to coordinate things using a single thread on the Raspberry Pi board. :)

If anyone wants to be involved in the project and doesn't currently have a role, perhaps you could consider doing the website design. That will speed things up; I can set the site up with a simple and minimalist design, then we can upgrade to something nicer later.

Finally, I wanted to ask for people's opinions about the way the toolkit should be customised. How do you turn a general purpose multi-user game toolkit into a particular game? My idea is that you put an entry in the server config file which tells it to load a particular Python module. This happens when the server starts. That Python module then registers interest in various events, such as new players joining the game, players pressing certain keys, players going to particular locations, and so on.

When the customisation code gets called, it can do things like creating objects, moving objects, showing visual effects.

If people are happy with this structure, I will start by creating a few events and API calls. Eventually we'll have to think what the complete list should be, but that's a long way off!

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SN
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:16 pm

I feel you will end up with 'empty worlds' without LOD - there is lots of tricks you can play with low poly versions of object not to far from the camera view to make a very very populated scene without hammering the object/poly count in any particular scene - all I'm saying is we should support it from Day 1 - even if we don't bother implementing it where we don't need/can't be bothered
Steve N – binatone mk4->intellivision->zx81->spectrum->cbm64->cpc6128->520stfm->pc->raspi ?

specsdude
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Re: R-Pi Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MM

Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:12 pm

Great news, milord!:

Image

I have finished a new version of the tree, using the same technique as the Turbosquid tree you linked to.

Poly count is 470. I could probably get it lower, but ICRBB.

So, Pete, that's cool about the Windows support! Although shouldn't I be able to run it just like you anyway, be cause I have all the dependencies?...

The website sounds awesome - I'm no good at that sort of stuff unfortunately. I'm there's someone here who *could* do it...
Finally, I wanted to ask for people's opinions about the way the toolkit should be customised. How do you turn a general purpose multi-user game toolkit into a particular game? My idea is that you put an entry in the server config file which tells it to load a particular Python module. This happens when the server starts. That Python module then registers interest in various events, such as new players joining the game, players pressing certain keys, players going to particular locations, and so on.
IMO, I'd kinda prefer some sort of user interface. However, since this is also an educational project, I think what you envisioned should do just fine, kids can get used to delving into the code to make their world just how they like it. That's what you mean, right?
we should support it from Day 1 - even if we don't bother implementing it where we don't need/can't be bothered
Tell me, how can you support something without implementing it? :roll: I'm a bit of a derp, enlighten me. And TBH I don't think it's that serious anyway. The models we're using will be specifically chosen / made with the Pi in mind, so they will be lower detail, file size etc. No problems.

I can't help it any longer, have to use the UBER GEEK emoticon!!! :ugeek: mwahaha it looks so cooool

EDIT: BTW: I've made a #friendlyfruit tag on Diaspora. I'll be posting all my model renders there, so feel free to take a look and comment if you have an account as well. Obviously I'll continue to post here as well, and hopefully on the new webiste when it's here.
Last edited by specsdude on Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Arise! Arise, riders of Théoden! Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered - a sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride! Ride to ruin, and the world's ending! Forth Éorlingas!

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