timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:14 pm

[quote="ghp"Instead of receiving decimal values, scratchClient receives strings like "(121856/5)".[/quote]
Good catch. That's a Fraction (duh) and obviously has the virtue of being precise, unlike most Floats. However, I understand that most languages can't cope with Fractions, which is a pity.

I'll take a look soon. I'm (hopefully) finishing up the new version of NAAWIUT [1] language handling after a long list of hardware problems wasted much of last month, so a new beta should be out next week.

[1]Not At All What I'm Used To - i.e. languages that use letter shapes beyond the ken of a poor Brit. And some of them go backwards!
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

Tonypa
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:30 am

Can someone help me please. I posted this a couple of days ago as my own thread, to no replies.

I'm trying to create a desktop shortcut to the NuScratchBeta.sh file but nothing seems to be working. It loads perfectly from terminal but I want to launch it from desktop. Please can someone help me???

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:16 pm

New release out right now; the i18n displaying seems to work pretty well and lots of places got cleaned up in the process.
I'm hoping this will be a short-lived release since I have couple of speedups in the wings that simply couldn't make it just yet and I wanted to get this out to you asap.

Right now *all* text is rendered by the Pango/Cairo rendering engine. Since so much of the UI is cached it's hard to see any places where it has slowed anything down and it may be that overall it can be faster than using the 'native' character rendering. I'm not completely sold on the graphical quality though; I'm not at all sure the Latin-1 characters look as good as the Squeak rendering, and I'm not familiar enough with the other scripts to really judge how good they are. It's all pretty configurable though.

As a small bonus the password field in the sharing dialogue now displays * instead of actual characters as you type your password.

https://github.com/raspberrypi/scratch/ ... hBeta6.tgz

Enjoy!
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:26 am

Hi Tim
I had to amend NuScratchB-6.sh to correct path and filename

Code: Select all

#!/bin/sh
stklinuxhtARM/squeak -vm-sound-alsa NuScratchBeta6.image
Its always the little things that go wrong :)

Simon
Seeking help with Scratch and I/O stuff for Primary age children
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simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:28 am

Mouse still doesn't work properly :(

Simon
Seeking help with Scratch and I/O stuff for Primary age children
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simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:35 am

@Tonypa
install latest as above
change NuScratchB-6.sh as above
chmod 755 NuScratchB-6.sh

create shortcut

Code: Select all

[Desktop Entry]
Encoding=UTF-8
Version=1.0
Type=Application
Exec=./NuScratchB-6.sh
Icon=scratch
Terminal=false
Name=NuScratchB-6
Comment= Programming system and content development tool
Categories=Application;Education;Development;
MimeType=application/x-scratch-project
Let me know if this doesn't work for you

Simon
Seeking help with Scratch and I/O stuff for Primary age children
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simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:09 am

@tim
Just tried Asteroid Blaster - key presses very problematic :(

Simon
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Tonypa
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:38 am

Hi Simon

Not working I'm afraid. .sh file is in directory /home/pi/scratch and needs to be prefaced with sudo.

Works perfectly from terminal!

simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:44 am

can you post result of

Code: Select all

ls -l NuScratchB-6.sh
please
Seeking help with Scratch and I/O stuff for Primary age children
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timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:25 pm

simplesi wrote:Its always the little things that go wrong :)
Wow. To say that that puzzles me would be putting it mildly. I swear (loudly and copiously) that it was working on my machine. Then again, I have lots of development stuff there and ... oh, joy, multiple files with similar names. Sigh.

I notice that something is not quite right with the languages list menu too; first time you use it it appears that the NAAWIUT languages are not being displayed correctly, but if you change language and then use the menu a second time all is well. I think I know what that is.

As for the mouse button response issue, all I can say right now is that it seems to be very keyboard related and that it isn't changed by the usb changes on a B+. I'll be adding some diagnostic code to the vm soon.

Ah well, I did say it would be a short-lived release...
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:02 pm

As for the mouse button response issue, all I can say right now is that it seems to be very keyboard related and that it isn't changed by the usb changes on a B+. I'll be adding some diagnostic code to the vm soon.
I always VNC into my Pi so its not a physical keyboard/mouse issue I don't think

Simon
Seeking help with Scratch and I/O stuff for Primary age children
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timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:02 pm

Ta-da! New version.
Fixed (honest, I swear it works on my pi) startup script, improved language changing performance, faster bitblt correctly hooked up.

https://github.com/raspberrypi/scratch/ ... hBeta7.tgz

Go for it...
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:04 pm

[quote="simplesi"I always VNC into my Pi so its not a physical keyboard/mouse issue I don't think[/quote]
Well it's certainly not a simple anything so far as I can work out.
The exact same keyboard/mouse input code does perfectly well on the x86 linux VM and has done for a couple of decades now. Not a lot has ever changed, nor apparently needed to.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:07 pm

It will be something simple - just well hidden :)
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ghp
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:31 pm

Hello,

have taken some time to execute some test cases with new scratch. In general, progress is visible and many things work really good.
The doubleclick performance is not perfect, as in few cases this 'doubleclick-event' is lost. You see this in file selection dialog, when doubleclicking folders to open, or when doubleclicking on a variable display on stage (should change style on each doubleclick).
See test cases and results in attached ods-file.
Some well known problems are included in the list, as I want to have a overall summary on test cases.

Regards, Gerhard
Attachments
test_nsb7.zip
open document sheet, zipped as this blog only allows zip.
(43.09 KiB) Downloaded 191 times

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:35 am

ghp wrote: have taken some time to execute some test cases with new scratch.
Wow. You certainly have taken some time. Amazing.
I'm delighted that so many of your tests are passed by NuScratch. That's a nice thing to know.

Looks like some places are making Fractions instead of Floats, which ought to be fixable (though Fractions are nice and precise and maybe there is something to be said for introducing kids to them with some future extension). (and my wife is asking what age children you teach)
The project title thing shouldn't be much of a problem.
Project note rendering I noticed is a bit odd and looks like CR is not being handled.
I suspect that the remote utf8 string problem is just a issued conversion between utf8 and 'proper' Squeak string objects.
Ah look, our old friend the banana problem. Sigh.
List editing problem is a new one, I know Ive added items to list both manually and from scripts. Rats.

I'll add issues to the github list - unless timezones allow somebody else to get there first, of course.

Have you noticed any performance changes with the new rendering? I'm quite surprised that even the naive method I used seems not to cause any problems.

And I've attached a zip of ghp's file converted to els for those of us ODS challenged -
test_nsb7.xls.zip
(14.68 KiB) Downloaded 178 times
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:40 pm

The doubleclick performance is not perfect, as in few cases this 'doubleclick-event' is lost.
Mine take on this is
The doubleclick performance is bad, it only works 50% of the time!

Single click only works 70% of time

I really really think this is THE major issue :) The rest is icing :)

Simon
To clarify - if its not usable - it doesn't matter how fast you can't use it :)
Target audience is 9 Yrs old with the attention span and allowance for error that goes with that age :)
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timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:27 pm

simplesi wrote:To clarify - if its not usable - it doesn't matter how fast you can't use it :)
Target audience is 9 Yrs old with the attention span and allowance for error that goes with that age :)
I pretty much agree. Part of the problem is that the self-same code works perfectly well on other machines and even work pretty well on some of my Pi's. On my B+ it's not too good with one keyboard and terrible with another. It seems to get worse if the Pi has been busy for some time - possible small temperature issue?
And on RISC OS there's no problem at all on my Pi's.

I'm trying to work out what to log to pin this down. Not as simple as it might seem.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:07 pm

it's not too good with one keyboard and terrible with another.
What are your keyboards/mouse response like running normal 1.4 on your Pi?

Simon
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ghp
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:14 pm

Hello, counting mouse clicks is a tedious thing. But I wanted to know a little bit more about missing click events.
Setup: a sprite, a script when sprite clicked, increment counter by 1.
I executed 6 groups of hundred clicks. The counter reported 86, 86, 88, 95, 90, 73

Edit: when executing this test in presentation mode, all clicks are counted. So the assumption is, that the problem is related with some script animation thing.

Regards,
Gerhard

simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:32 pm

Thank for doing that Gerhard :)

At least we now have some facts :)

Simon
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timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:12 pm

ghp wrote:Edit: when executing this test in presentation mode, all clicks are counted. So the assumption is, that the problem is related with some script animation thing.
Now *that* is an interesting observation. I have no idea what it tells us, but maybe it will provide a clue.

Part of the problem is that some parts of Scratch are expecting an event driven model of input - think 'do this when key $f is pressed' and parts want a state model - think 'if key $f is down do'. The low-level code in the newer systems work on an event from the VM (and thus of course like it best if the OS provides events) and so I have to synthesise the state vector. The older systems had a mix of event and state in the VM, which usually results in confusion and mismatched ideas of what has happened. There was also a nasty trick involving always sending the Smalltalk code a mouse-move event with any other event and I had a suspicion that might be involved. Try wiggling you mouse just a little as you click on buttons; for me it always makes the click work. Somewhere there is some ugly code buried that ties all this together.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:40 pm

Remember, all programmers have a low opinion on other programmers code but you have to give credit to something that has worked flawlessly for 10 years :)

Simon
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ghp
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:07 pm

Hello, again on mouse clicks.

One of the possibilities for lost mouse clicks are bad mouse devices, or individual speed in clicking. To eliminate this, a programmable mouse is needed.

Last year, I have added an arduino due to my toolbox, and remembered there is a Mouse-Library for this.
So today I wrote a sketch, sending mouse press and mouse release events every 2 secs.
Press, wait 100ms, release, wait 1900 ms.
And this in a cycle of 100.

Result is, that in presentation mode, all clicks are counted.
In 'stage mode', I get constantly 66, same number in multiple runs.

Slowing down the rate to 3 sec, no significant changes, but down to 60%.
Faster operation, 50ms downtime, 3 mouse press a sec again 100 % in presentation mode, but only 44% in 'stage mode'.

Regards,
Gerhard

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:12 pm

Gerhard, that is such a cool experiment!

I'm compiling a vm with some debug logging code right now to see if/when the events are getting into the vm and when they get read. If that all seems ok I'll move up a level.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

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