simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:06 pm

Will try it out - I got some strange block duplicating behaviour on the last one at times - not enough to report but will give this one a bit more of a thrashing :)

I really appreciate the editing speedups you've added over the actually script running speed BTW

Simon
Seeking help with Scratch and I/O stuff for Primary age children
http://cymplecy.wordpress.com/ @cymplecy on twitter

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:04 pm

simplesi wrote:Will try it out - I got some strange block duplicating behaviour on the last one at times
Sadly that problem is still there; I've dug into it a few times and ended up with a nasty headache and no improvement. I'll look at it again sometime soon. It doesn't actually prevent anything working since it is purely an issue of the bounding rectangle of the stack of tiles getting a little messed up. You can typically fix it by dragging out the parent tile (which pulls the 'damaged' one with it) and putting it back. There's some very tiny detail of inserting a block into the stack when it's a duplicate of what is already there... weird.

There are some improvements to editing speed still to come as I noticed a particularly egregious bit of daft programming the happens when setting up to load/open a new project; the whole of memory is scanned a dozen times as a way to find any already/still open dialogues. That takes a little over 2sec of the only slightly longer time to actually get the relevant dialogue on screen for the user. And opening the painter has some interestingly slow code in it that can almost certainly be removed. And there are some new graphics routines to speed up handling the important 'touching' tests that will appear soon.

And it shouldn't be too much longer before we have a working demo version of the Squeak JIT (aka Cog) working. That should get some parts running much, much faster.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

ghp
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:28 pm

Hello,

I did not repeat performance tests since the first one on nsb4 in june 2014.
Here the results for nsb15
performance_nsb15.png
performance_nsb15.png (33.73 KiB) Viewed 2690 times
The tests are basically the same as the those reported in june; see http://heppg.de/ikg/wordpress/?p=270 for a description.
I adjusted the 'number of cycles' in a way that the smallest execution time was larger than 10 sec.
The blue lines are 'normalized' execution times from legacy scratch (edit: 2013-12-03) as delivered in raspbian. as this is the baseline, this line is always 1.0.
The red lines are normalized execution times from nsb15 compared to legacy scratch. The smaller, the faster.

Performance of new scratch is prox double as fast as legacy scratch. One of the major improvements is "move2", where some watchers are on screen and two sprites move throuh the watchers and themselves. This executes 7 times faster.

Performance of nsb4 is similiar to nsb15, but nsb15 is less buggy...

All the tests were executed in presentation mode, in order to avoid the block animation code.

One of the tests was executed both in presentation and stage: remote sensor variable update. This test is for remote sensor performance (and of course challenges internal block execution): scratch sends out a value N, and remote python code sends in N+1. If scratch detects this increased value, it continues to send out another value M.
Here you see that legacy scratch is faster in stage mode, but in presentation new scratch is 40% faster.

Remote sensor protocol again was proven to be quite fast. Broadcast events to a remote client and response back take 30 ms each cycle or 30 remote communications per second. Sending values out and waiting for response is prox 20ms or 50 per second.

Regards,
Gerhard
Last edited by ghp on Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

iw1
Posts: 46
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:07 pm

An error reported before but since corrected seems to have returned in nsb15.
Right click on a set of script blocks and select 'duplicate'. Drag the duplicate onto another sprite. This generates an error message; it should copy the block into the script editing area for the second sprite.

Dragging a variable onto the stage (not something you would normally do but could be done by a beginner) also generates an error message.

A 'quirk' I haven't noticed before but which also occurs in the original Scratch: it's very difficult to renumber/rename numbered costumes reliably.

I also had a crash - Scratch nsb15 closed down - when playing several sounds successively during the writing of a program. I haven't been able to reproduce this however.

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:32 am

ghp wrote:Performance of new scratch is prox double as fast as legacy scratch.
Thanks! A question - when you say 'legacy scratch' are you referring to the much altered old version dating from (eek!) last december, or the *really* original version from before I started working on it?
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:36 am

iw1 wrote:An error reported before but since corrected seems to have returned in nsb15.
Right click on a set of script blocks and select 'duplicate'. Drag the duplicate onto another sprite. This generates an error message; it should copy the block into the script editing area for the second sprite.

Dragging a variable onto the stage (not something you would normally do but could be done by a beginner) also generates an error message.

A 'quirk' I haven't noticed before but which also occurs in the original Scratch: it's very difficult to renumber/rename numbered costumes reliably.

I also had a crash - Scratch nsb15 closed down - when playing several sounds successively during the writing of a program. I haven't been able to reproduce this however.
Hmm, that's several bad things that shouldn't be happening. Especially the total crash; we had some of those when using the interrupt based scheduler tick but I've not seen any hint of such problems since swapping to the thread-ticker. The actual bug is in the ALSA libraries though, so is there any chance you had recently used ALSA sound for anything?
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

iw1
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:10 am

Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:58 am

The actual bug is in the ALSA libraries though, so is there any chance you had recently used ALSA sound for anything?
Possibly. I had also been trying ScratchGPIO6 (unmodified so using the original Scratch, i.e. Scratch that comes with the NOOBS download). This would have been closed down before running Scratch nsb15 but I can't be sure that I also rebooted the Pi.

simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:24 pm

ScratchGPIO can only make things worse not better as it runs an additional background program at same time - don't use it for general testing on NuScratch it could just introduce red herrings to Tim's development. :)

I try out NuScratch with my handler from time to time just to make sure the broadcast mechanism still works - which it always has done :)

Simon
Seeking help with Scratch and I/O stuff for Primary age children
http://cymplecy.wordpress.com/ @cymplecy on twitter

ghp
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:41 am

ScratchGPIO can only make things worse not better as it runs an additional background program at same time
I have used my implementation of the "remote sensor protocol handler", called "scratchClient", for testing the various nuscratch versions and found some problems with the protocol implementation in nuscratch, but basically no stability problems otherwise.
These problems are solved in the meantime.

Since three days, I run a long term experiment with nuscratch15 and scratchClient, sending variables and broadcasts in and out quite frequently. This is done to check whether there are memory leaks somewhere in the implementation. But no problems to report so far.

Regards,
Gerhard

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:27 am

iw1 wrote:An error reported before but since corrected seems to have returned in nsb15.
Right click on a set of script blocks and select 'duplicate'. Drag the duplicate onto another sprite. This generates an error message; it should copy the block into the script editing area for the second sprite.

Dragging a variable onto the stage (not something you would normally do but could be done by a beginner) also generates an error message.
It turns out both of those are triggering the same problem. It's fixed for the next release.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

TeknoRapture
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:48 pm

Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:07 pm

Just wondering how this project is going. I skimmed the threads about NuScratch and i still have a couple questions. First, will it support BYOB (build your own block)? Will it be extensible with plugins? Is any minecraft api support planned? Im stuck on my phone right now but i plan on checking it out when i can, is the last link on this thread the most current? Thanks!

ghp
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:49 pm

Just wondering how this project is going. I skimmed the threads about NuScratch and i still have a couple questions. First, will it support BYOB (build your own block)? Will it be extensible with plugins? Is any minecraft api support planned? Im stuck on my phone right now but i plan on checking it out when i can, is the last link on this thread the most current? Thanks!
Can't give official statement, but had the chance to see it recently at Amsterdam Scratch Conference.
BYOB, no. Will be 1.4 compatible
Plugins, no. It is 1.4-level. Will have GPIO access and supporting some popular boards.
Minecraft planned?, do not know. But not yet included.

Latest scratch 1.4 is 2015-01-15 which is default on raspbian.

Regards,
Gerhard

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:02 pm

My, this is an old thread to resurrecting...

Next release of Scratch for Pi is coming soon. It will be maintaining 1.4 compatibility since that is what seems to be wanted by a large number of users. If you want it to bring MIT 2.0 compatibility (the new blocks, read/write 2.0 files etc) then ask the Foundation about it and maybe they'll agree enough to fund the work.

The effort for the last few months has been speed and gpio. You'll find out soon enough.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

framboosejh
Posts: 17
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:28 pm

Hello Tim,

I am Evert Jan Henken and living in Holland.
I am learning to work with RISC OS on a Raspberry Pi.
So far I got to Basic and some knowledge about RISC OS.
I like to work with Scratch on RISC OS on the Raspberry Pi, but I can't find where i can download it.

Hopefully you can help me, I am not an Expert on RISC OS and not even on Scratch, but I can read and learn.

Thanks,

Evert Jan Henken

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:26 pm

framboosejh wrote: I like to work with Scratch on RISC OS on the Raspberry Pi, but I can't find where i can download it.
Hi Evert, I'm sorry to have to tell you that Scratch is not really well supported on RISC OS. I got it running ok with the very old code base a couple of years ago but technical issues with the way ROS works seem to make it effectively impossible to run the latest code - I don't see any serious chance of getting the Cog VM to work. :cry:
The best you can do is to look at the thread 'Scratch with Tim Rowledge at ROUGOL' in the RISC OS forum, dating from last May. It looks looked I explained things well enough for a couple of people to get working!
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

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