timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:33 pm

The event debugging shows that events appear to all get to the VM and get read by the lowest level of the image, so that's a good thing, though puzzling. A non-Scratch Squeak image runs just fine and appears to not have any issues.

Now to dig into the event handling done by Scratch, which is an interesting pile of code.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:53 pm

Yay! Victory!

Well, pretty much. I am suspicious of a few remaining places but the responsiveness to mouse clicks and d-clicks is hugely improved. What was wrong? Ehhh, tricky to explain without going on and on until you fall asleep but basically old-style input event handling code was being inappropriately with modern input event code and thus fairly frequently the event queue was being flushed even though we were actually in the middle of seeing if a click was actually part of a double click pair. Kinda like the neurolyser in MIB. What was I saying?

Some more testing just to be sure and then I'll get a copy out to you folks before I leave for a trip to the UK and
a) the World Science Fiction Convention in London
b) European Smalltalk User Group in Cambridge where I get to give a talk about all the fun we're having with this.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:09 am

New release on github;
https://github.com/raspberrypi/scratch/ ... hBeta8.tgz
This fixes a lot of the click problems people have been seeing but I certainly won't claim it makes everything perfect. There's some nasty details buried in deep corners that need more thought but this should help for the next few weeks whilst I'm travelling.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

ghp
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:47 am

Hello,

I challenged my programmable mouse. For fast clicks (3 per sec), I got 44% of the events. For slow clicks (1 per sec), 99%, which is better than release 7. Both in presentation mode: 100%.

Setup: release 8, counting mouse clicks on a sprite: when sprite clicked: increment counter. Scratch in 'stage mode, so script animation is running in parallel.

Doubleclick in file open dialogs, clicking on directories to open them, no improvements visible.

Regards
Gerhard

simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:20 am

Real world testing by me

Single click works :)

Double-click - for File Open type ops - 1 in 3 chance of success

But since signle-click and press enter works then it makes NuScratch operational for me :)

I'll start using it in my day-day and report back :)

Thanks for all your effort Tim.

I'm down south (Cambridge) weekend of 6th Sep so maybe our paths might cross :)

Simon
Seeking help with Scratch and I/O stuff for Primary age children
http://cymplecy.wordpress.com/ @cymplecy on twitter

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:28 pm

OK, sounds like it makes things better for other people as well as me, so that's nice. Obviously while Im travelling there isn't going to be much changed, though during my week in Cambridge it might be possible to do some debugging. Keep reporting issues and adding reports to the github issues list...
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:56 pm

Now its working we can start reporting the MAJOR issues

e.g in the sensor values displayed on the stage - they are touching the bottom and could do with moving up 1 or 2 points :)

Simon
OT PS If there is ANY change of a look at the BYOB file exit issue before your travels I'd be VERY grateful :)
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arclite
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:35 am

I recently watched a Japanese television program showing their educational progress to teach 1st grade children to program computers for the first time using Scratch.

I realised that scratch is indeed a great introduction to functional feedback via computers of any affordable kind for use by many children simultaneously.

But scratch limits these children to sole interaction with their own code and the CPU alone. Apart from the Japanese solution to having too few teachers to teach, they have from their own children realised that the children themselves can teach each other and they are now doing just this. Because it is about the facilitation of "new" ideas from the children themselves.

But I have to ask, why not open the scope of their interaction to a shared arena with basic rules (eg. sustainable play and not LMS, Last Man Standing) but with the freedom for their sprites to interact in different ways? This engine has been used in on-line gaming for years as a platform, but with the "Cyberlife" interactions as a possibility who knows what could be created as a future secure arena for children to vision possible futures and to solve problems together? Perhaps us adults could learn a few things from their collective example? The possibilities in this respect are infinite.

Best regards to our wonderful RPI team.

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:55 am

Should have a new beta out for you tomorrow - sept 25th - all being well.

I've finally, I think, beaten the double-clicking issues along with-
sound tab causing 100% cpu load
several places where number formatting was wrong
loading projects with open variable displays
costume size values
So all in all it should be a bit easier to use.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:18 am

New Beta !
https://github.com/raspberrypi/scratch/ ... hBeta9.tgz

Double-click stuff fixed
Sound tab cpu load reduced
Assorted number formatting issues fixed
sprite importing fixed
projects with open variable displays fixed

Also added a desktop file; it assumes that you are keeping things in /home/pi/Scratch so if you use some other location you will need to edit the 'nuscratch.desktop' file before dragging it to your desktop.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:00 am

Great news

[ignore]

Simon
Seeking help with Scratch and I/O stuff for Primary age children
http://cymplecy.wordpress.com/ @cymplecy on twitter

simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:25 am

OK

Lets start dealing with the minor stuff - that makes a diff nevertheless :)

Stage isn't white - its a subtle shade of pink:)

When loading a project - it asks if I want to save even if I've done nothing

Default load folder isn't the current default on the Pi which is /home/pi/Documents/Scratch Projects

Simon
Seeking help with Scratch and I/O stuff for Primary age children
http://cymplecy.wordpress.com/ @cymplecy on twitter

simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:25 am

PS No issues with mouse clicking :-)
Seeking help with Scratch and I/O stuff for Primary age children
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timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:07 pm

simplesi wrote:Stage isn't white - its a subtle shade of pink:)

Urk. Well I was about to say "nonsense! your monitor needs calibrating!" but it seems to be more subtle than that. Scratch is indeed displaying white correctly in its own terms; the pixels have value 0xFFFFFFFF as they should.

However, somewhere there is definitely some translation going on. Put nuScratch next to old scratch and the stage definitely looks non-white. It happens on my iMac too [1] though perhaps less of a difference. I need some app for Pi that will read the actual pixel value on screen under the pointer, or similar. Any ideas?

[1] edit later - actually not. It *looks* like it but a loupe app shows identical RGB values for the two versions. Weird.
[2] edit even later - using `scrot` (lovely name) to do a screen capture on the Pi and using the loupe app on my iMac shows that the old scratch actual display of white has rgb= 248:252:248 and nuscratch has rgb=248:248:248. So strictly speaking t'ain't pink it's very slightly grey as opposed to slightly green in the old version. I have no idea what causes that; guess it has to be something in the VM code that copies the Squeak display bitmap to the actual screen.
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simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:41 pm

I've alt-prnt screened bmy VNCdisplay and Nuratch is #fffbff 255,251,255
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simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:43 pm

Lets leave the colour for the moment and fix the default load/save issues :)

Simon
PS NuScratch does seem to be consuming a lot more (About 25%) more cpu than orig Scratch when editing medium complex scripts with 10 variable/sensor values being displayed with my ScratchGPIO prog running in the background

Are you able to profile/compare mem usuage/cpuusage?

Simon
Seeking help with Scratch and I/O stuff for Primary age children
http://cymplecy.wordpress.com/ @cymplecy on twitter

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:06 am

simplesi wrote: PS NuScratch does seem to be consuming a lot more (About 25%) more cpu than orig Scratch when editing medium complex scripts with 10 variable/sensor values being displayed with my ScratchGPIO prog running in the background
The VM has a thread that wakes up 500 times per second to check for the interrupts, timer and IO events that drive the system. That, along with some other housekeeping seems to occupy about 15% of cpu time on my Pi. It probably seems a lot but it's part of the price paid for a system that can do its own multitasking and keep animated UI frameworks ticking along properly. It's also an artefact of how linux works; last time I measured a similar case on RISC OS it was taking more like 1% cpu. By the time you have another process communicating across something as inefficient as sockets, with all that context swapping and virtual memory and so on... no surprise that it 'wastes' some time. The older system VM might seem a tiny bit more 'efficient' here but it has some serious issues with event responsiveness, threshold tunability etc.

It'll be so much less of an issue when we have quad core ARM v8 Pis.
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timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:08 am

simplesi wrote:When loading a project - it asks if I want to save even if I've done nothing
Fixed for beta 10; what fun that was to sort out...
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:10 am

timrowledge wrote:
simplesi wrote:Stage isn't white - its a subtle shade of pink:)

Urk. Well I was about to say "nonsense! your monitor needs calibrating!" but it seems to be more subtle than that. Scratch is indeed displaying white correctly in its own terms; the pixels have value 0xFFFFFFFF as they should.
Turned out to be a VM build problem seeping through. Ben's fastBlt code was set up to do a 32bpp -> 16bpp RGB:565 transform to match the colour map used on the Pi. The default unix platform code was assuming a 16bpp RGB:555 map. Since something had messed up the build process just enough to stop Ben's code running ,we go subtly mangled colours.

Should be fixed for beta 10. Assuming I can stop the build process from going mental again.
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simplesi
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:53 pm

Great progress as usual Tim :)

Simon
Seeking help with Scratch and I/O stuff for Primary age children
http://cymplecy.wordpress.com/ @cymplecy on twitter

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:38 am

Also killed issue 25, the non-appearing watcher. Hmm, if a Watcher doesn't appear can it be watching you?
This was a reeeeeaaaally deep down technical issue. It's amazing how tiny seeming changes deep in a system can cause such a narrowly focussed problem 10+ years later.
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ghp
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:20 am

Today is public holiday here, and with the help of a few cups of coffee I managed to re-execute the test suite for nuscratch 9.
The results are added in pdf and ods (libreoffice, openoffice spreadsheet format).
There are well known problems in the list, but also new ones as test 161: duplicate sprites does not give unique sprite name.

Regards, Gerhard
Attachments
nuscratch_test.zip
(57.06 KiB) Downloaded 203 times

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:09 am

ghp wrote:Today is public holiday here, and with the help of a few cups of coffee I managed to re-execute the test suite for nuscratch 9.
Goodness me; I go off to run a small conference for a few days and come back to a massive test suite report. Wow.

It's nice to see so few red blocks. I can see several I fixed today -
152-155
145/6
97-99
92

I can't quite work out what the problem is for 117 - can you explain a bit more?
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ghp
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:53 am

Hello,

context: network protocol, outgoing. Have a global variable with utf-8 chars modified. A remote client should receive these strings in utf-8 encoded. But the bytes I receive for 'äöü' (my standard testcase, easily available from keyboard; but the description in the sheet is wrong with äää) are: e4 f6 fc instead of c3 a4 c3 b6 c3 bc.
e4 f6 fc is äöü in 8859-1. So possibly a codepage problem.

Regards
Gerhard

timrowledge
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Re: The Beta Strikes Back; NuScratch beta release

Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:02 pm

ghp wrote:. A remote client should receive these strings in utf-8 encoded.
I *think* I fixed this.

There should be Yet Another Beta soon. There's still couple of really annoying bugs to fix but gradually, byte by byte, we are getting near a release candidate for general usage.
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

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