shiran.tal
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A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:53 am

Hi Everyone,

I'm involved in a development of an app which runs on Ras Pi (with an interface).

I then realized (along the way) a very problematic issue which is that the LXDE doesn't use the GPU, therefor it all falls on the CPU.

Even now when the CPU is stronger on the Pi 2, it would still be nice for the OS to function with all the GPU resources.

Although I haven't tried the latest OS version yet, I haven't seen in the latest OS update release notes anything about that problem being fixed.

Ras Pi team? Please FIX and/or correct me if I'm wrong.

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RaTTuS
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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:55 am

make your application use the GPU
no need for x

this is not a serious problem with raspbian
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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:00 pm

Not sure if this is useful (it seems repated )but I have just set up my pi b+ with noobs again and had a look at lxtasx via a ssh -x login with the new interface

This is on my very lastest blog post which I made before reading post here on the forums

http://zleap.net/rpi-b-noobs-post-install/

I took some screen shots of lxtask,

Paul

ghans
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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:06 pm

This will propably never get fixed , since the X window system itself is considered broken.
The foundation focuses on Wayland /Maynard instead. Alternatively there is some work on-going which might give us GLX support , too.

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PeterO
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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:09 pm

shiran.tal wrote:Hi Everyone,
I then realized (along the way) a very problematic issue which is that the LXDE doesn't use the GPU, therefor it all falls on the CPU.
LXDE is a window manager/desktop. It never uses the GPU. The issue you are raising is that the PI's Xserver is not using the GPU.
Even now when the CPU is stronger on the Pi 2, it would still be nice for the OS to function with all the GPU resources.
The OS has no need to use the GPU, it doesn't do anything the GPU could help with.
Although I haven't tried the latest OS version yet, I haven't seen in the latest OS update release notes anything about that problem being fixed.
Ras Pi team? Please FIX and/or correct me if I'm wrong.
You will benefit from using PI2 because with 4 cores your application won't be competing with the Xserver and so it should run faster.
PeterO
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mimi123
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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:40 pm

ghans wrote:This will propably never get fixed , since the X window system itself is considered broken.
The foundation focuses on Wayland /Maynard instead. Alternatively there is some work on-going which might give us GLX support , too.

ghans
It will be fixed. A fully hardware-accelerated X11 server with GLX support is running here(still a bit of artefacts). (Mesa with VC4 support and a custom kernel)

jamesh
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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:48 pm

mimi123 wrote:
ghans wrote:This will propably never get fixed , since the X window system itself is considered broken.
The foundation focuses on Wayland /Maynard instead. Alternatively there is some work on-going which might give us GLX support , too.

ghans
It will be fixed. A fully hardware-accelerated X11 server with GLX support is running here(still a bit of artefacts). (Mesa with VC4 support and a custom kernel)
What sort of improvements are you seeing?
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shiran.tal
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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:54 pm

ghans wrote:This will propably never get fixed , since the X window system itself is considered broken.
The foundation focuses on Wayland /Maynard instead. Alternatively there is some work on-going which might give us GLX support , too.

ghans
Wayland is not even in Alpha, so I guess that would take some time.
mimi123 wrote:
ghans wrote:This will propably never get fixed , since the X window system itself is considered broken.
The foundation focuses on Wayland /Maynard instead. Alternatively there is some work on-going which might give us GLX support , too.

ghans
It will be fixed. A fully hardware-accelerated X11 server with GLX support is running here(still a bit of artefacts). (Mesa with VC4 support and a custom kernel)
That's good to hear. It is a shame that the PI guys don't invest in this, since there is already a GPU over there which is good enough to handle the LXDE :\

ghans
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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:19 pm

Do you think the work on Mesa is completely unrelated to the foundations efforts ???

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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:28 pm

shiran.tal wrote:It is a shame that the PI guys don't invest in this, since there is already a GPU over there which is good enough to handle the LXDE :\
With respect, this is not "A SERIOUS Raspbian issue".

Do you think they aren't investing in several things at once? Please show them at least a little bit of respect :)

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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:44 pm

I agree about it not being serious.

For example, it's been there for three years, and known about for all that time. Most people have survived without it.
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EtonMess
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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:02 pm

I think most of us that were with Raspberry Pi from the beginning are aware of the reasons for it, somebody new on the scene might wonder why the powerhouse GPU is not more utilised.
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mimi123
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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:14 pm

jamesh wrote:
mimi123 wrote:
ghans wrote:This will propably never get fixed , since the X window system itself is considered broken.
The foundation focuses on Wayland /Maynard instead. Alternatively there is some work on-going which might give us GLX support , too.

ghans
It will be fixed. A fully hardware-accelerated X11 server with GLX support is running here(still a bit of artefacts). (Mesa with VC4 support and a custom kernel)
What sort of improvements are you seeing?
Running Unity(under Ubuntu 14.10) at 24-30FPS. Did not bother trying to run a benchmark(only piglit, OVER 90% pass).

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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:21 pm

mimi123 wrote:
jamesh wrote:
mimi123 wrote: It will be fixed. A fully hardware-accelerated X11 server with GLX support is running here(still a bit of artefacts). (Mesa with VC4 support and a custom kernel)
What sort of improvements are you seeing?
Running Unity(under Ubuntu 14.10) at 24-30FPS. Did not bother trying to run a benchmark(only piglit, OVER 90% pass).
Impressive. I've got desktops that won't run Unity...
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mimi123
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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:16 pm

jamesh wrote:
mimi123 wrote:
jamesh wrote: Running Unity(under Ubuntu 14.10) at 24-30FPS. Did not bother trying to run a benchmark(only piglit, OVER 90% pass).
Impressive. I've got desktops that won't run Unity...
Unity runs well with OpenGL 2.1.
I don't have a single device that can't run Unity(except the old Galaxy Tab, my RPi1, or the unfamous Poulsbo laptop)

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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:44 pm

mimi123 wrote: Unity runs well with OpenGL 2.1.
I don't have a single device that can't run Unity(except the old Galaxy Tab, my RPi1, or the unfamous Poulsbo laptop)
My problem is an old Nvidia graphics card that is simply too slow, or perhaps the driver is badly written. Screen updates in seconds....

Mind you, the driver on a more recent Nvidia card is also flakey (both the Nvidia one and the OS one, the name of which escapes me for the moment) with occasional lockups that need a reboot.
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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:56 pm

jamesh wrote:
mimi123 wrote: Unity runs well with OpenGL 2.1.
I don't have a single device that can't run Unity(except the old Galaxy Tab, my RPi1, or the unfamous Poulsbo laptop)
My problem is an old Nvidia graphics card that is simply too slow, or perhaps the driver is badly written. Screen updates in seconds....

Mind you, the driver on a more recent Nvidia card is also flakey (both the Nvidia one and the OS one, the name of which escapes me for the moment) with occasional lockups that need a reboot.
I prefer using ATI/AMD cards. ( I have only one Nvidia Fermi[GeForce GT620] card in my house, using it with nouveau, reclocked and it works quite well)

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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:54 am

LXDE is lightweight on the ARM CPU, and even faster with the included Raspbian UI enhancements. On the Pi 2 with (faster) quad core it really flies, and leaves 3 of the cores for running applications. I also tried XFCE and MATE on Raspbian, but LXDE is quite a bit faster, so I'm sticking with it for now.

It's quite a fast desktop for the Pi 2 (though still quite slow on the original RPi), and I'm really loving the UI enhancements - it's very slick and elegant for such a lightweight platform.

For a fully hardware accelerated desktop, you'll have to wait for Maynard on Wayland, which seems to have been substantially delayed. I could not get the Maynard (pre-)alpha to even run on the Pi 2.

shiran.tal
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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:52 am

Ravenous wrote:
shiran.tal wrote:It is a shame that the PI guys don't invest in this, since there is already a GPU over there which is good enough to handle the LXDE :\
With respect, this is not "A SERIOUS Raspbian issue".

Do you think they aren't investing in several things at once? Please show them at least a little bit of respect :)
jamesh wrote:I agree about it not being serious.

For example, it's been there for three years, and known about for all that time. Most people have survived without it.
Well, with all due respect, it is a matter of perspective and a matter of what do you need from the pi.
My developers did not notice that until it was too late. I've received an app which was VERY slow, it was just too much for the CPU to handle. I had to delay the release of the app and to redesign the whole thing just because of that, while I'm making some BIG compromises in terms of UI UX.

So, to me it is very serious. Other people might not use the pi for similar purposes, but for people who use it for apps with designed interfaces, it might be serious too.

Really hoping that a solution would be found soon.

Shiran.

Ravenous
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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:10 am

shiran.tal wrote:Well, with all due respect, it is a matter of perspective and a matter of what do you need from the pi. My developers did not notice that until it was too late.
Oh, I didn't realise that you were a professional and you are evaluating the raspi for a commercial application. In that case, yes I agree the system probably isn't fast enough for you, at the moment.

However - bear in mind the Raspi's makers are after a target market in education. The raspi is powerful enough for that market, so this issue is still not very serious. Commercial applications are different however...

ame
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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:39 am

shiran.tal wrote: Well, with all due respect, it is a matter of perspective and a matter of what do you need from the pi.
My developers did not notice that until it was too late. I've received an app which was VERY slow, it was just too much for the CPU to handle. I had to delay the release of the app and to redesign the whole thing just because of that, while I'm making some BIG compromises in terms of UI UX.

So, to me it is very serious. Other people might not use the pi for similar purposes, but for people who use it for apps with designed interfaces, it might be serious too.

Really hoping that a solution would be found soon.

Shiran.
Wait. You feel there is a SERIOUS Raspbian issue because <insert reason here>? You had to delay the release of something because your developers are not good enough? What, precisely, did they "not notice"?

The Pi has been around for a long time now. There are no surprises anymore (other than faster/better versions appearing unannounced).

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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:59 am

shiran.tal wrote:
Ravenous wrote:
shiran.tal wrote:It is a shame that the PI guys don't invest in this, since there is already a GPU over there which is good enough to handle the LXDE :\
With respect, this is not "A SERIOUS Raspbian issue".

Do you think they aren't investing in several things at once? Please show them at least a little bit of respect :)
jamesh wrote:I agree about it not being serious.

For example, it's been there for three years, and known about for all that time. Most people have survived without it.
Well, with all due respect, it is a matter of perspective and a matter of what do you need from the pi.
My developers did not notice that until it was too late. I've received an app which was VERY slow, it was just too much for the CPU to handle. I had to delay the release of the app and to redesign the whole thing just because of that, while I'm making some BIG compromises in terms of UI UX.

So, to me it is very serious. Other people might not use the pi for similar purposes, but for people who use it for apps with designed interfaces, it might be serious too.

Really hoping that a solution would be found soon.

Shiran.
The Pi in its original form has been around for three years, in exactly the state you see it in now. And all of a sudden you find a problem with your code and it's not fast enough?

I'd suggest that if the app is so CPU hungry, that GPU acceleration of the desktop isn't going to help. But if you really need better performance buy a B2 and try that. The GUI will then run on a different core giving a CPU dedicated to the app. If its still too slow, then the app or use case is at fault, not the Pi.
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ghans
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Re: A SERIOUS Raspbian issue

Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:31 am

Perhaps you're doing it wrong™ ? I would attribute slow performance to the choices
of tools the developer made , not the platform. The latter can't be changed anyway.
If the choice of tools of the developer cannot adjusted to the the platform , use another platform.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wulbR2R1GpM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeJxQN-W2uA

That is a model B1 !

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