IanH2
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Raspbian and systemd?

Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:04 pm

Am I right in assuming that Raspbian will have no choice but to follow the Debian project and move to systemd for the next (Jessie) release?

I have to say I'm not a big fan, and think it will make learning about, and tinkering with, the OS boot process considerably harder. The huge body of system administration hints and tips currently out there on the 'net will, at a stroke, become irrelevant. I'll stop now, before I start to rant.

Anyway, if I don't want systemd on my Pi, what are the alternatives? Apart from "never upgrade from Wheezy"?
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:13 pm

Yes it is the same headless chicken syndrome as all changes are and if you had googled you would of found many people have installed sysvinit in Jessie as it is available from the repositories, so like all Linux choice is paramount:

https://packages.debian.org/jessie/sysvinit

http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/osd.html

Rant over, just create a Jessie to suit a Jessie ;)
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IanH2
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:05 pm

Thanks - I knew about sysvinit, but it's clearly a non-standard option, and I'm not sure it's any more of a long-term fix than 'stick with Wheezy'.

The mission of Raspberry Pi is surely to encourage people to understand how their systems work, and to learn by tinkering about and trying things. Systemd has a huge learning curve (example - read the grief somebody had setting a static IP address on Arch linux here: http://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewt ... 53&t=54080; there are many, many others), and this has a chilling effect on 'learning by doing'. The net effect is that people will start to thinking "it's magic, I don't understand it" and we're very quickly back at people just using their Pis to run word processors and Web browsers.

Really, I'm asking does nobody else care about this stuff? And if you do, what are you going to do about it? Maybe we should ask the Pi foundation to officially endorse a BSD port...
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cyrano
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:34 pm

I've been a longtime Debian fan. I'm moving on since even longtime kernel devs are leaving the project.

Haven't decided yet on replacement. The Rpi is only a grain of sand in the desert, when it comes to the complete equation.

diederik
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:54 am

IanH2 wrote:Really, I'm asking does nobody else care about this stuff? And if you do, what are you going to do about it?
No, nobody cares. If it were the case I would've found things about it on the internet or the various debian mailing lists .... :roll:

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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:43 am

For jessie it seems likely that sysvinit will continue to be at least reasonablly well supported (though not the default). The long term is still very much up in the air and it will depend heavilly on the results of an ongoing general resoloution that is currently being voted on by Debian developers.

Raspbian does not have the resources to go differently from Debian on this.

whoami
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:59 am

plugwash wrote:Raspbian does not have the resources to go differently from Debian on this.
Actually this is a point in history when Raspbian can make history by writing its own fork of udev. I've thought about doing it myself based on http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/eudev/. Might try it during Christmas.

For now, and apologies if this sounds like a plug, you can use the approach in lessbian: pin down systemd to accept only the bare minimal dependencies, and if necessary use systemd-shim until an alternative appears.

diederik
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:36 am

whoami wrote:use systemd-shim until an alternative appears.
And that's indeed the proper way to use sysv-init in jessie

IanH2
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:11 pm

If both the officially supported distros (Raspbian & Pidora) are to use systemd, I would like the Raspberry Pi Foundation to formulate a considered opinion on the subject. The Pi has 3,000,000+ installed units; it's maybe the #1 platform for learning Unix. People will respect the Foundation's opinions.

Even if this is "stop whingeing, grandpa, it's the future", it'll give people (er, that's us) some motivation to revise all the helpful system-tweaking advice that's out there. The worst possible outcome is to sleepwalk into this, leaving huge amounts of inaccurate information on websites, books, and educational materials, so that the beginners we're trying to encourage end up baffled and frustrated.
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:15 pm

4 mil RPi's now sold
How To ask Questions :- http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
WARNING - some parts of this post may be erroneous YMMV

1QC43qbL5FySu2Pi51vGqKqxy3UiJgukSX
Covfefe

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:16 pm

Poppycock and Balderdash :D
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:19 pm

IanH2 wrote:If both the officially supported distros (Raspbian & Pidora) are to use systemd, I would like the Raspberry Pi Foundation to formulate a considered opinion on the subject.
Does anyone apart from you care? sysvinit or systemd are only there to get the long running system tasks started during boot and terminate during shutdown. Does it matter how that stuff works as long as things get started and in the right order (where there are strong dependencies)?

sysvinit is crap you can't deny that, systemd may be just as much crap (but it's too new to tell) but they both get the same job done and are mostly invisible to most users.
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:26 pm

DougieLawson wrote:Does anyone apart from you care? sysvinit or systemd are only there to get the long running system tasks started during boot and terminate during shutdown.
That's the thing though. systemd doesn't just do that. It hangs about and does stuff in the background while the system is running.

I haven't had many problems with it so far, but I'm holding back updating my important systems until I'm certain they'll behave.

(Ok, on my main laptop that isn't because of systemd, but because of a regression in the video driver, but I have hit minor issues with my Raspis already).

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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:47 pm

rpdom wrote: That's the thing though. systemd doesn't just do that. It hangs about and does stuff in the background while the system is running.
Is there any sensible way to configure it to not do that stuff?
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whoami
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:48 pm

diederik wrote:
whoami wrote:use systemd-shim until an alternative appears.
And that's indeed the proper way to use sysv-init in jessie
It is deceptive to say that because systemd-shim will only get you so far. Check udisks2 for example.
DougieLawson wrote:
IanH2 wrote:If both the officially supported distros (Raspbian & Pidora) are to use systemd, I would like the Raspberry Pi Foundation to formulate a considered opinion on the subject.
Does it matter how that stuff works as long as things get started and in the right order (where there are strong dependencies)?.
With all due respect, in my experience systemd does not work correctly. I'll only provide two examples and let you investigate on your own.
  • I've experienced that if you have squid3, resolvconf, dnsmasq, privoxy installed, systemd causes a race condition which throws the raspberry pi off balance (don't ask me why I tried this, even if the Pi is too weak to support this, the system should work slowly but logically).
  • Have systemd and try switching your wifi card to monitor mode. It may work, it may not work. Next, try to attach your wifi card using a long USB extender and repeat the experiment.
Now, repeat the experiments above after removing systemd.

IanH2
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:35 pm

DougieLawson wrote: Does anyone apart from you care?
In a word, yes. Anybody wanting to use a Pi for an embedded, headless or other 'non-desktop' application needs to know configuration basics: setting network parameters, enabling serial port access, setting permissions on hardware devices, configuring standard server processes, and running their own bespoke things in the background. There are guides, tutorials and HOWTOs all over the Internet for these tasks, representing years of research and patient explanation by their authors, which have without doubt contributed to the success of the Pi as a platform for learning and building.

The key fact is that all these things are now within systemd's bailiwick and in almost every case they now work differently. I'm not saying 'better' or 'worse' here, just 'differently'. Without any fanfare, one day people will start receiving NOOBS cards for which much of what they read on the net simply doesn't apply.

I fear irreparable damage to the Pi ecosystem as a result, and that is why I care.
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diederik
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:26 am

IanH2 wrote:
DougieLawson wrote: Does anyone apart from you care?
In a word, yes.
...
Without any fanfare, one day people will start receiving NOOBS cards for which much of what they read on the net simply doesn't apply.
It's great that you care, but I think you're worrying about it too much.
It's true that the way services are started/configured is different from systemd vs sysv-init (although systemd also supports sysv-init scripts), but that's the part about system services. And I highly doubt that people who actually want to create/modify those services would use NOOBS but more importantly they (should) have the skills to adapt from sysv-init scripts to systemd unit files.

But my guess is that most people using the RPi won't be dealing (directly) with those system services, but are using various applications instead and they (could) care less about which init system is being used.
It's not like all the articles on the internet become obsolete just because there's a different init system.
And if you use jessie now on your RPi and you come across an issue (because of systemd), try to replicate it on a 'normal' debian system and if the issue manifests itself there too, report it to Debian's Bug Tracking System (use the 'reportbug' application for that). That way you'd not only improve Debian, but since raspbian is derrived from Debian you'd improve things for all the RPi users too :)

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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:21 pm

I see from a Register article that Debian is to be forked, creating "Devuan" : http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/12/01 ... ng_forked/

Which way is Raspbian going to go? Debian, Devuan or both?
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:10 pm

Mortimer wrote:I see from a Register article that Debian is to be forked, creating "Devuan" : http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/12/01 ... ng_forked/

Which way is Raspbian going to go? Debian, Devuan or both?
Starting on November 5th, the Debian developers began casting votes on a general resolution which would determine whether packages included in Debian could require the use of a specific init package. With systemd becoming the default init implementation earlier this year there was some concern as to whether Debian users would be able to select their preferred init software. The vote would determine whether software accepted into Debian's repositories would force packages to be independent of a specific init implementation or if package maintainers could link to a specific init package. The votes have been counted and the result is Debian developers have chosen not to rule on coupling packages to any specific init software. This means upstream developers and package maintainers will be free to depend on (or not depend on) specific init software as they see fit.
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20141124#news

Another headless chicken syndrome, because 99% of end user would not notice or care what init ;)
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:44 pm

Raspbian intends to continue to follow Debian, for jessie that means that both systemd and sysvinit will be supported options with systemd as the default. Beyond jessie who knows what will happen.

What the builders of images (including the raspberry pi foundation) do is up to them,

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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:47 pm

fruitoftheloom,
...because 99% of end user would not notice or care what init...
That is perhaps true.

Certainly true in the MS/Apple world of buying an OS and just using it. If it works and you get your monies worth then you are OK.

This however is the opensource world. Where an OS like Debian can be used in all kind of places from embedded systems to servers. Where the users like to be able to tinker, hack and configure things the way they like to get their special requirements done.

One should be able to mix and match components to ones hearts content.

What worries me about systemd is the ever increasing scope of the thing. The need to make more and more higher level parts of the system dependent on it.

What worries me about systemd is that it is 600,000 lines of code just to start up a system. Compare to the only 1.2 million lines of code in use in any particular Linux kernel installation.

What worries me about systemd is this:

Code: Select all

$ mount 
sysfs on /sys type sysfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime)
proc on /proc type proc (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime)
udev on /dev type devtmpfs (rw,relatime,size=10240k,nr_inodes=496929,mode=755)
devpts on /dev/pts type devpts (rw,nosuid,noexec,relatime,gid=5,mode=620,ptmxmode=000)
tmpfs on /run type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,relatime,size=798388k,mode=755)
/dev/sda1 on / type ext4 (rw,relatime,errors=remount-ro,data=ordered)
securityfs on /sys/kernel/security type securityfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime)
tmpfs on /dev/shm type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev)
tmpfs on /run/lock type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,size=5120k)
tmpfs on /sys/fs/cgroup type tmpfs (ro,nosuid,nodev,noexec,mode=755)
cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/systemd type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,xattr,release_agent=/lib/systemd/systemd-cgroups-agent,name=systemd)
pstore on /sys/fs/pstore type pstore (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime)
cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/cpuset type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,cpuset)
cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/cpu,cpuacct type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,cpu,cpuacct)
cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/devices type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,devices)
cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/freezer type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,freezer)
cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/net_cls,net_prio type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,net_cls,net_prio)
cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/blkio type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,blkio)
cgroup on /sys/fs/cgroup/perf_event type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,perf_event)
systemd-1 on /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc type autofs (rw,relatime,fd=22,pgrp=1,timeout=300,minproto=5,maxproto=5,direct)
mqueue on /dev/mqueue type mqueue (rw,relatime)
hugetlbfs on /dev/hugepages type hugetlbfs (rw,relatime)
debugfs on /sys/kernel/debug type debugfs (rw,relatime)
fusectl on /sys/fs/fuse/connections type fusectl (rw,relatime)
rpc_pipefs on /run/rpc_pipefs type rpc_pipefs (rw,relatime)
binfmt_misc on /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc type binfmt_misc (rw,relatime)
tmpfs on /run/user/1000 type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,size=399196k,mode=700,uid=1000,gid=1000)
That is what I get having installed Debian Jessie on my desktop PC.

What the hell is all that? Please try the "mount" command on your Raspbian install for comparison.

Well, OK, that mess may not all be systemd's fault. But it was not there before and it looks gross.

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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:59 pm

Surely "I don't understand the output of this command" isn't a valid argument against systemd. When any improvement happens, we all learn something new and I don't see that as a bad thing. The argument should be focused on whether it's an improvement in the first place rather than how little of a change it is.

IF (and that's a big if) systemd is a better way of doing things, I don't care how much it inconveniences people who are used to the old way.

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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:24 pm

ShiftPlusOne wrote:IF (and that's a big if) systemd is a better way of doing things, I don't care how much it inconveniences people who are used to the old way.
There's a couple of problems with the old unix folks.
1. I like sysvinit because I know how it works no matter how bad it is.
2. I don't want systemd because it's something new to learn.

I've still got one foot in that camp because of the on-going sysvinit vs systemd wars that are being fought on the DebIan battlefield. That's stopping me sitting down and learning what systemd is all about, how to use it and how to convert to it.

I'm not averse to change but while the wars rage I don't want to waste my time if systemd loses.
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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:43 pm

DougieLawson wrote:
ShiftPlusOne wrote:IF (and that's a big if) systemd is a better way of doing things, I don't care how much it inconveniences people who are used to the old way.
There's a couple of problems with the old unix folks.
1. I like sysvinit because I know how it works no matter how bad it is.
2. I don't want systemd because it's something new to learn.

I've still got one foot in that camp because of the on-going sysvinit vs systemd wars that are being fought on the DebIan battlefield. That's stopping me sitting down and learning what systemd is all about, how to use it and how to convert to it.

I'm not averse to change but while the wars rage I don't want to waste my time if systemd loses.
I think we're in the same camp. I'm willing to give systemd a chance because the first arguments against it fall into two categories:
1)I don't understand it
2) It's not how I used to do things
I can dismiss both of them without wasting time thinking about them because they're invalid arguments. I've seen some valid arguments against systemd but they seem like things which can be fixed. I'd just like to see them battle it out rather than just dismiss it because some random person on the Internet doesn't like it.

I think the difference is that I'm willing to give it a go, but you know better. In any case... I think sysvinit could be improved upon and I think systemd could be be the thing that does it.

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Re: Raspbian and systemd?

Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:04 pm

DougieLawson wrote: I'm not averse to change but while the wars rage I don't want to waste my time if systemd loses.
Systemd basically won the "default init system in Debian" battle ages ago. The more recent conflict has been over what exactly "default" means. That is to what extent alternative init systems will be supported and whether wheezy systems upgrading to jessie should get sysvinit or systemd.

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