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mpthompson
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Mon May 14, 2012 11:57 pm

Hexxeh wrote:Threw together a new SD card image for Raspbian at mpthompson's request over the weekend, it's available here: distribution.hexxeh.net/raspbian/raspbian-r3.zip
Terrific. Thank you very much. The Wiki page has been updated to reflect this image.

http://www.raspbian.org/HexxehImages

With the GUI bits being included I hope this image demonstrates the quickly evolving nature of Raspbian as more Debian packages are built.

ljdawson
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Tue May 15, 2012 12:19 am

mpthompson wrote:There have been requests for web browsers on Raspbian to fill out the GUI experience. I've looked into it and at a minimum we won't have one for at least another 4 days or so. The reason is that Midori and Chromium both rely on webkit which according to the Debian armhf build logs is an 81 hour build on similar type of hardware we are using to build Raspbian. Gulp!!! 81 hours!!! That's a 3+ day build...

Even worse, it looks like they both rely on different versions of webkit. Firefox/IceWeasel even a separate huge build. No matter what, these are going to be very painful builds to get through and we'll have to exercise patience. I don't have knowledge of how to cross-compile such complex Debian packages so there isn't much of option to use more powerful Intel hardware for these builds (which isn't the Debian way anyway).

To get through this as quickly as possible, I've stopped autobuilding on one server and devoted it to building webkit for the next 3+ days. I had to use a handful of Debian armhf packages to satisfy build dependencies so there is a risk that at the end of these builds we can't use the packages as they may have ARMv7 contamination and won't run on the Raspberry Pi. However, this risk is generally pretty low so it's probably worth taking to these critical pieces of a GUI experience built.

Since the build system I do manual builds on will be devoted to webkit for the next few days this will give me time to turn my attention to fixing up the Raspbian.org website and some infrastructure issues I've been meaning to get to for the last week or so. Plugwash has been busy with his own set of manual builds on another build server so we'll have three to four other autobuilders pounding on the scheduled set of packages. Binary packages will be coming out slower for a little while, but they progress will continue to be made.

PS. If you want to go old school, you can use the lynx browser on Raspbian which is a text-mode browser. Doing so, at least you'll really appreciate Midori or Chromium when they do show up on Raspbian. :)
Excellent news! Thanks for expediting this.

chrisost
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Tue May 15, 2012 3:10 am

mpthompson wrote:Terrific. Thank you very much. The Wiki page has been updated to reflect this image.

http://www.raspbian.org/HexxehImages
I just went to download the Hexxah image. The link in the Wiki isn't correct. It points to http://www.raspbian.org/distribution.hexxeh.net/... (instead of just distribution.hexxeh.net/...). I created an account on the Wiki to fix it, but the pages are locked.

I look forward to trying it out. I'm downloading now.

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mpthompson
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Tue May 15, 2012 4:13 am

chrisost wrote:I just went to download the Hexxah image. The link in the Wiki isn't correct. It points to http://www.raspbian.org/distribution.hexxeh.net/... (instead of just distribution.hexxeh.net/...). I created an account on the Wiki to fix it, but the pages are locked.

I look forward to trying it out. I'm downloading now.
Thank you for pointing out the error. It should now be fixed. I went ahead an enabled your account to be able to edit content on the Wiki. Let me know if you have any problems.

BTW, tomorrow I plan on spending some time to start adding content to the Wiki to lay the foundation of a more active Raspbian community over the next few months. I hope that others will start contributing content, help with managing aspects of the community and help turn Raspbian into a real asset for the Raspberry Pi community. I think we're off to a good start, but there is sooo much more to do.

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mpthompson
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Tue May 15, 2012 4:47 am

Updated package count as of Monday evening:

Debian armhf 34355
Raspbian armhf 29209

Just shy of 5000 packages to reach parity with Debian armhf. Some progress, but the count is definitely moving a bit slower.

This slowness is occurring for two main reasons. We took an update last night from Debian Wheezy that updated a large number of packages that now need to be rebuilt against new source packages -- updates such as this basically replace binary packages that were previously built and thus don't get counted. Also, plugwash and I are each working on major multi-day manual builds of very large packages which means only three build servers are autobuilding right now.

With webkit, I'm now about 35 hours into what looks to be at least an 81 hour build. I was examining the build system earlier today and even though it has 1GB of RAM, a very large link of a shared library consumed just over 2GB of swap. Having that much memory in swap is painful. Also, the "mega builds" such as this won't yield a lot of packages, but hopefully they'll more than make up for it in terms of enabling new functionality for the GUI with web browsers and such.

shirro
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Tue May 15, 2012 5:12 am

mpthompson wrote: With webkit, I'm now about 35 hours into what looks to be at least an 81 hour build. I was examining the build system earlier today and even though it has 1GB of RAM, a very large link of a shared library consumed just over 2GB of swap. Having that much memory in swap is painful.
Next time might want to see if you can get it to build with the gold linker. It is supposed to use less memory and be a lot faster for big c++ things. Hexxeh might know if that works or not.

veryevil
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Tue May 15, 2012 1:36 pm

Hey, just started using Hexxeh's Raspbian-R3 image and a couple of things.

Icons for LXDE are missing: apt-get install lxde-icon-theme

also rpi-update will only work after time has been set so I think he should also include ntpdate

apt-get install ntpdate

and as part of the update process run:

ntpdate uk.pool.ntp.org

Thats it so far. Thanks for the huge effort Cannot wait for a decent web browser on this!

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mpthompson
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Tue May 15, 2012 3:21 pm

veryevil wrote:Thats it so far. Thanks for the huge effort Cannot wait for a decent web browser on this!
Thanks for the information. I added it to the wiki page so others will see it when downloading.

Coming up on 48 hours of building the webkit -- another 30 to 40 to go. I'm crossing my fingers the build continues to go smoothly and is free from Armv7 contamination.

miho
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Tue May 15, 2012 3:52 pm

A helpful advice for building webkit might be on http://code.google.com/p/chromium/wiki/ ... sterBuilds

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mpthompson
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Tue May 15, 2012 6:25 pm

A quick Raspbian build update. After about 48 hours the gtk version of webkit just finished. I disabled the tests associated with the build so that may explain why the build took less than the 81 hours we anticipated. Getting gtk webkit built looks to have freed up a number of interesting packages that are now in the build queue including the web browser midori. Hopefully these will be autobuilt and in the repository within the next 24 hours.

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Toad King
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Tue May 15, 2012 7:29 pm

Great news on the progress!

Also, I know you're mainly focusing on the main section of Debian packages, but the non-free firmware packages might be worth including, at least for people like me who have Wifi dongles that need them: http://packages.debian.org/source/wheez ... re-nonfree

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mpthompson
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Tue May 15, 2012 8:21 pm

Toad King wrote:Also, I know you're mainly focusing on the main section of Debian packages, but the non-free firmware packages might be worth including, at least for people like me who have Wifi dongles that need them:
I'm fairly certain we'll be going after the 'non-free' packages as well. It just won't happen in a serious way until we are finished with the 'main' packages. I haven't looked into what's required to support the non-free packages in the reprepro based repository we are using. Probably not much, but I'll look into it so perhaps we can put at least a few of the firmware packages in there to help Raspberry Pi users such as yourself.

SquallStrife
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Tue May 15, 2012 11:45 pm

Using the v3 image, I'm getting a lot of "mmc0: Controller never released inhibit bit(s)." messages.

But there don't seem to be any other symptoms. What's causing that?

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mpthompson
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Wed May 16, 2012 12:00 am

I created and registered #raspbian on the Freenode IRC network. Feel free to drop in and say "Hi". I'll try to stay on whenever I'm around my desk.

I'm not a sophisticated IRC user by any means. Feel free to give me suggestions and tips for utilizing the #raspbian channel in a more effective manner.

You can use the link below for a web client if you don't have an IRC client:

http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=raspbian

Hexxeh
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Wed May 16, 2012 12:06 am

Both Raspbian mirrors are ready:

Atlanta, GA: http://distribution-us.hexxeh.net/raspbian/archive/
Munich, Germany: http://distribution-eu.hexxeh.net/raspbian/archive/

Speedtest links are below if you're curious what kinds of speeds you'll get:

http://distribution-us.hexxeh.net/100mb.test
http://distribution-eu.hexxeh.net/100mb.test

SquallStrife
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Wed May 16, 2012 12:19 am

SquallStrife wrote:Using the v3 image, I'm getting a lot of "mmc0: Controller never released inhibit bit(s)." messages.

But there don't seem to be any other symptoms. What's causing that?
Got this answered in the IRC channel:

[10:07am] Hexxeh: that's the kernel thing
[10:08am] Hexxeh: *that's a
[10:08am] Hexxeh: rpi-update is bundled in that image
[10:08am] Hexxeh: run it every few days, it'll go away eventually (i hope)

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mpthompson
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Wed May 16, 2012 12:52 am

Hexxeh wrote:Both Raspbian mirrors are ready:
Thanks Hexxeh. We now have two mirrors in Europe and one in North America.

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mpthompson
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Wed May 16, 2012 4:32 am

How can you help Raspbian?

Warning: VERY long post ahead.

Often I get requests from people that have received their Raspberry Pi to help Raspbian out by helping to build Debian packages. Unfortunately, the autobuild system is pretty rickety and it would be a lot of work for me to include builds that are done outside the firewall. We're getting close enough with the builds that I would rather not stop everything to make such modifications to a working, but fragile, build system. Also, there is the consideration that the Raspberry Pi has limited resources to build packages and there is no way to control what builds might automatically get directed to a Pi. Raspberry Pis could easily have builds thrown at them that they just wouldn't be able to build which would just slow everything down.

I very much appreciate the offers to help, but using Raspberry Pi's in a geographically distributed manner to build Raspbian just isn't realistic for getting the initial builds of packages completed as soon as possible.

With that being said, if there are ambitious people with Raspberry Pi hardware and a strong desire to help move Raspbian forward, below are a handful of projects important to Raspbian that I hope people will consider taking on.

1. Debian Kernel Package for Raspberry Pi

Normally, Debian systems have two main packages related to the Linux kernel -- linux-image and linux-headers. There are also a number of secondary packages built along with the kernel that include device modules, file systems, etc... A list kernel packages associated with Debian Wheezy can be found here:

http://packages.debian.org/source/wheezy/linux-2.6

We need to have an equivalent set of Debian packages that bundle up the kernel that can be installed using apt-get. Such a package will be a critical component of Raspbian and an important part of the Raspbian installer which I describe below.

It would be a great help to have someone take the lead on creating the kernel package for Raspbian an then updating it frequently to reflect kernel updates and patches as released by the Raspberry Pi Foundation and broadcom.

2. Debian Installer

Pretty much every port of Debian maintains a customized version of the generic Debian Installer. I believe the Raspberry Pi should have it's own version of the Debian Installer that conforms to Debian installation priciples. Such an installer will allow a person to boot their Raspberry Pi to the installation menu and they can install a fresh copy of Raspbian completely tailored to their needs. Prebuilt SD images are great, but an installer is really the "Debian way" of getting a system going. Something that Raspbian should honor.

A basic overview of the Debian installer can be found here:

http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch06.html.en

Information on how to customize the generic Debian installer can be found here:

http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/apb.html.en

I think this would be a great project for someone with Raspberry Pi hardware as it is not so much building code, but more about understanding Debian installation principles, understanding the Raspberry Pi and customizing the installation process to something that makes sense with regards to the primary mission of the Raspberry Pi.

3. Raspberry Specific Hardware Packages

The Raspberry Pi includes custom binary libraries for accessing the proprietary features of the GPU. Specifically OpenGL ES and OpenVG libraries as well as a handful of others. We'll need to get these libraries, make sure we get them compiled by those that can for the hardfloat ABI that Raspbian uses and then have them packaged up in a way that they can be installed with apt-get.

Like the kernel, we need someone who can install take ownership of this task and initially create the packages as well as update them as changes come from the Raspberry Pi Foundation and/or Broadcom.

4. Port Linux Mint Packages to Raspbian

I greatly respect what the folks at Linux Mint have done and I think there are some wonderful things there that can make the Raspbian more aesthetically pleasing and easier to use. I would like Raspbian to borrow whatever makes sense from Linux Mint. In particular I would love to see Mate ported to the Raspberry Pi. Assuming of course, it isn't too CPU intensive.

It would be great if someone could examine the Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE) and see which, if any, packages would make sense to port to the Rasberry Pi. The Linux Mint Debian specific packages can be found here:

http://packages.linuxmint.com/list.php?release=Debian

In communications with Clement Lefebvre regarding Linux Mint, I got from him the following information. At Linux Mint they don't use any toolchain or automated builds. All packages are built by hand. They do use a tool called mintconstructor do some dirty work and then dch and dpkg. Code is stored in:

http://github.com/linuxmint

Their repository is segregated as follows:

- main is for packages they maintain themselves
- upstream is for packages they modify and pin from upstream (whether that means Debian or Ubuntu)
- import is for packages they add (such as Opera, Google Earth etc etc..)
- backports isn't really used
- romeo is used as a temporary zone to test packages before they go to one of the above sections (it's their unstable zone).

----

In summary, I hope these are meaty enough projects to interest those that want to help move Raspbian forward to become the leading Linux distribution for the Raspberry Pi. If nobody steps forward I'll eventually take them on myself, but it could take months to work my way through them. Help from the community could turn those months into a few weeks to see these important projects completed.

Also, this list is not meant to be the only things we'll be doing soon with Raspbian. If there are other projects that people want to contribute to Raspbian that aren't listed above, by all means let me know. I'll do my best to accommodate meaningful contributions that will enhance Raspbian for everyone.

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mpthompson
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Wed May 16, 2012 4:46 am

As requested, the web browser Midori is now part of the Raspbian repository. Told you it would take a few days. ;)

I know it's not Chromium, but hopefully it's better than nothing. As I can't test it out myself, let me know if there are dependency or other issues that are keeping it from installing.

Other browsers should be coming down the line over the next week or so.

Also, I would be interested in hearing people's impression of the performance of Rasbian compared to Debian armel or the other Linux distributions for the Raspberry Pi. Particularly with a big application like a web browser. Some of the chatter in the #raspberrypi IRC channel seems to indicate that Raspbian performs quite well in comparison, but no one has reported such impressions back here in the forum.

SquallStrife
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Wed May 16, 2012 5:11 am

FWIW, I've just successfully built DirectFB for use with libsdl, and played Keen 4 in DOSBox, with kinda-sorta OK performance. All on the Raspbian-v3 image.

Performance seems slightly improved over the foundation's Debian image, but still have the drawback of software-rendered framebuffer chewing up CPU time. I bet it will be great if libsdl ever gets native OpenGL ES support!

Love your work, guys!

louisb
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Wed May 16, 2012 8:33 am

mpthompson wrote: How can you help Raspbian?
So for example if someone wanted to contribute XBMC (hint hint) how would they go about this?

I guess they would first collect together all sources for XBMC that compiles and runs on a pi, then ask for access to the Raspbian git repository and upload the sources. I suppose they would have to know something about debian packaging.

veryevil
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Wed May 16, 2012 9:52 am

Hi, installed midori but its not at all stable. it Segfaults a lot.

I recompiled it locally from source with debugging enabled and used GDB to find out the where the error is and here is the log

Code: Select all

Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
0x4a947828 in ?? ()
(gdb) bt
#0  0x4a947828 in ?? ()
#1  0x41cf76e4 in JSC::JSValue::get(JSC::ExecState*, JSC::Identifier const&, JSC::PropertySlot&) const () from /usr/lib/libjavascriptcoregtk-1.0.so.0
#2  0x41d2e294 in JITStubThunked_op_get_by_id_self_fail ()
   from /usr/lib/libjavascriptcoregtk-1.0.so.0
#3  0x41d2b834 in cti_op_get_by_id_self_fail ()
   from /usr/lib/libjavascriptcoregtk-1.0.so.0
#4  0x41d2b834 in cti_op_get_by_id_self_fail ()
   from /usr/lib/libjavascriptcoregtk-1.0.so.0
Backtrace stopped: previous frame identical to this frame (corrupt stack?)
Hope we can work towards a fix

Steven

plugwash
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Wed May 16, 2012 10:01 am

So for example if someone wanted to contribute XBMC (hint hint) how would they go about this?
Before we start packaging such programs there is a need to decide what we are gonig to do with regards packaging the broadcom libaries. Do we just leave them in /opt? if so how do we make binaries use them instead of the mesa versions. Do we use rpaths (which would mean making special broadcom specific versions of all software we want GPU accelleration for)? Do we symlink them from the usual library dirs? and how do we do that in a way that doesn't screw with the existing debian packages.

IMO the first thing to do is to try and get in touch with debian people and find out if there is already a system we can tie into for selecting egl/gles implementations. If noone else does this then I will but not until after we get the main repo into shape. I'm spending too much time on this as it is.

plugwash
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Wed May 16, 2012 10:03 am

Installing libjavascriptcoregtk-3.0-0-dbg and libwebkitgtk-3.0-0-dbg may help you get a better backtrace but honestly I probablly can't help much.

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mpthompson
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Re: Debian Hard Float (armhf) for RPi

Wed May 16, 2012 3:53 pm

veryevil wrote:Hi, installed midori but its not at all stable. it Segfaults a lot.

Hope we can work towards a fix

Steven
Hmmm, I knew things were going too smoothly. From the stack trace it looks like the problem is in the Javascript webkit shared library. The webkit of course being at least a two day build. The best I can do at this point is to try to reproduce the problem under QEMU and see if I can find where things are going off track.

In IRC it sounded like this problem may be present in the Debian armel or armhf. If so, that would be important information to confirm as it would mean we can work with the folks at Debian to work towards a resolution on their side which would then carry over to Raspbian.

I've got other items on my plate this morning, but I'll try to get a look at it late this afternoon or this evening.

[Update]

Here is a link with a very similar problem with Midori and Javascript with Arch Linux on the Raspberry Pi that was entered 12 days ago. Looks to perhaps even be in the same function call so these issues are probably related.

https://github.com/archlinuxarm/PKGBUILDs/issues/149

Their recommendation was turning off Javascript which isn't really a solution. However, it would be useful to know that without Javascript does Midori otherwise run in a stable manner.

I haven't found anything in the Debian bug base yet, but I haven't looked too deeply.

Another useful thing to do would be to see if Debian unstable/sid has a newer version of webkit. If so, we can look through the change list and see if this bug was addressed.

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