yaolet
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Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:08 pm

Have you guys consulted legal requirements in different jurisdictions regarding electronic publication?

In China you need to be approved and registered with the central publish bureau to be legal. Of course getting such approval without a local entity is almost impossible.

One way to remedy this is to have different store contents for different regions, just like what Apple did with iBook and app store.

Or just remove this from the bundle, let users download this.

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B.Goode
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:50 pm

I was under the impression that Bookshelf was a catalogue and ebook-reader. How would it infringe restrictions on publishing? (But I have the luxury of living in the UK where such things are not - yet - an issue, so I might not be fully informed.)


Is this apparently problematic application included in the 'Desktop Only' or 'Lite' variants of the RasPiOS Buster OS image?

I would expect not. Which might suggest a way forward...

yaolet
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:09 pm

B.Goode wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:50 pm
I was under the impression that Bookshelf was a catalogue and ebook-reader. How would it infringe restrictions on publishing? (But I have the luxury of living in the UK where such things are not - yet - an issue, so I might not be fully informed.)


Is this apparently problematic application included in the 'Desktop Only' or 'Lite' variants of the RasPiOS Buster OS image?

I would expect not. Which might suggest a way forward...
apparently the reader is chrome and bookshelf is a means of distribution of contents. I guess the lite is ok

jamesh
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:18 pm

yaolet wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:08 pm
Have you guys consulted legal requirements in different jurisdictions regarding electronic publication?

In China you need to be approved and registered with the central publish bureau to be legal. Of course getting such approval without a local entity is almost impossible.

One way to remedy this is to have different store contents for different regions, just like what Apple did with iBook and app store.

Or just remove this from the bundle, let users download this.
I have passed this one on. Seems extremely bizarre though. Bookshelf simply downloads freely available publications already available from Raspberry PI via other routes.
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spl23
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:16 pm

Bookshelf offers access to exactly the same content as the MagPi website, via the same URLs.

So if Bookshelf is illegal in China, so is magpi.raspberrypi.org, and that has been hosting PDFs for five years now without causing any noticeable issues in Anglo-Sino relations...

If the website is blocked by the firewall in China, then the book download URLs should also be blocked in Bookshelf.

spl23
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:17 pm

B.Goode wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:50 pm
Is this apparently problematic application included in the 'Desktop Only' or 'Lite' variants of the RasPiOS Buster OS image?
It's in 'desktop only'. It's not in lite.

hippy
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:10 pm

Wouldn't the best option be to move it to Recommended Software rather than make it part of the default install, only include it by default with the Raspberry Pi OS Desktop with Recommended Software install ?

Recommended Software had seemed to be the adopted solution for not adding bloat while allowing easy access to offerings some may want.

jamesh
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:33 pm

hippy wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:10 pm
Wouldn't the best option be to move it to Recommended Software rather than make it part of the default install, only include it by default with the Raspberry Pi OS Desktop with Recommended Software install ?
No.
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:43 pm

hippy wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:10 pm
Wouldn't the best option be to move it to Recommended Software rather than make it part of the default install, only include it by default with the Raspberry Pi OS Desktop with Recommended Software install ?

Recommended Software had seemed to be the adopted solution for not adding bloat while allowing easy access to offerings some may want.
Recommended Software is an entire 40 kbyte in size. (That's "k", not "M".) It isn't "bloat".

It is also a core part of the desktop, acting as a much more attractive and user-friendly portal to important documentation (such as the Beginner's Guide) than the original web link to the MagPi site which it has replaced in the Help section of the main menu.

It is staying in the default image. If the Chinese government don't like that for some perverse reason or other, then tough - the last time I checked, UK citizens and companies weren't subject to Chinese law...

LTolledo
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:12 pm

spl23 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:43 pm
..... the last time I checked, UK citizens and companies weren't subject to Chinese law...
+1000^100

I've just opened it...its a treasure trove! thanks!
guess my RPi is going to be consuming more watt-hours per day...... :D
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andrum99
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:54 pm

spl23 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:43 pm
...
It is staying in the default image. If the Chinese government don't like that for some perverse reason or other, then tough - the last time I checked, UK citizens and companies weren't subject to Chinese law...
And in any case, we've only got a random person on the interweb's opinion that it's a problem.

spl23
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:10 am

andrum99 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:54 pm
And in any case, we've only got a random person on the interweb's opinion that it's a problem.
Exactly.

I did have a quick Google about this last night, and while the Chinese government do seem to control Chinese publishers quite tightly, I could find no evidence that they had any such influence over material published by companies in other countries.

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bensimmo
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:11 am

It's a brilliant and simple addition, saves so much hassle being being able to tell people to go look at such and such and grab this or that.

Glad to see it and of course it increases numbers towards publication to increase revenue to pay for the magazines to provide people with information.

One suggestion is get a link to the Documents and the Projects pages etc as another tab. Less bookshelfy and RP Publishing specific though.
It just means I can say, look in the bookshelf for help now :-)

I do have a "would like" and that is make it searchable, but I doubt that is easy without quite a bit of work going tagging every publication, so I guess not feasible.

For now, it's simple, works and much better :-)

Worth the effort.

hippy
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:36 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:11 am
I do have a "would like" and that is make it searchable, but I doubt that is easy without quite a bit of work going tagging every publication, so I guess not feasible.
Changing the mouse-over pop-up to become a 'contents' list of the issue rather than whatever is currently being scraped ( which is a bit inconsistent, messy in places and contains some unescaped HTML, & etc ), would be useful and that could help towards having something searchable.

It might be possible to scour the PDF files to create a keywords database for searching upon. Perhaps someone in the community could implement that, issue a pull request.

BTW : Just because I suggested it should be in Recommended Software, rather than pre-installed, did not mean I had any personal objection to the app. I think it's brilliant. I had implemented much the same on my Windows PC using a web page, except it's not as nice or as useful as the app.

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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:55 pm

Speaking of
Recommended Software
I think it would be better to have this near the Bookshelf but labeled RaspberryPi Store, more modern and relevant wording for such things.

People may look in it then and find the bits they might not know they need and can use.

People tend not to look in settings and software, it's not modern terminology for non-computery people.
and yes, I know it's education and they should learn old terms, but they are that, old terms.

And simply put, if you don't bundle it, people will not use it as they're unlikely to know about it and then install it.

andrum99
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:58 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:55 pm
Speaking of
Recommended Software
I think it would be better to have this near the Bookshelf but labeled RaspberryPi Store, more modern and relevant wording for such things.
There was previously an app store on the official Pi OS (can't remember if it was pre-Raspbian). The 'Recommended Software' app is all free stuff, so it wouldn't make sense calling it a 'store'.

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bensimmo
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:30 pm

andrum99 wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:58 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:55 pm
Speaking of
Recommended Software
I think it would be better to have this near the Bookshelf but labelled RaspberryPi Store, more modern and relevant wording for such things.
There was previously an app store on the official Pi OS (can't remember if it was pre-Raspbian). The 'Recommended Software' app is all free stuff, so it wouldn't make sense calling it a 'store'.
I know, my kids used it, B+ era for them. (2B era I think?, to the confusion of my children when they came to look for it again)
Stores do have free stuff, I get plenty of free stuff form Google Store and Microsoft Store. It's a modern name for a place you get you apps /programmes from.
It was so easy to find, see and read about programmes.

They could use it as an sort of extension to the physical Raspberry Pi store, but free software, the links to the current Pi and addons and then the where to buy. A none money buying store.

But as discussed before on another topic, make the 'apps/programmes' better visually and verbally, possibly with links to how to use them and expand it with 'other useful' programmes for learners

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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:11 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:30 pm
...
I get plenty of free stuff form Google Store and Microsoft Store.
...
They also contain stuff that costs money, like a real store. Calling something that contains only free stuff a 'store' would be counter-intuitive.

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bensimmo
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:58 am

andrum99 wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:11 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:30 pm
...
I get plenty of free stuff form Google Store and Microsoft Store.
...
They also contain stuff that costs money, like a real store. Calling something that contains only free stuff a 'store' would be counter-intuitive.
why, it is just a place to find your programmes/apps
modern naming on computers things.
even TVs have "stores" as the place to find stuff.
free or not free does not mean it cannot be used.
just like Apps is now used to mean Programmes

andrum99
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:46 am

andrum99 wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:11 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:30 pm
...
I get plenty of free stuff form Google Store and Microsoft Store.
...
They also contain stuff that costs money, like a real store. Calling something that contains only free stuff a 'store' would be counter-intuitive.
Also, the purpose of the 'Recommended Software' app, as I understand it, is to have a place where Raspberry Pi can point to software which they recommend, beyond what is installed in the recommended OS image. Taking the word 'recommended' off it would defeat that.

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CaptainMidnight
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:13 pm

Bookshelf has got to be potentially one of the most underrated included programs preloaded in the latest desktop build !

Not many commercial companies at all, that produce high quality documentatiion for users to buy AND/OR freely download .pdf versions would create a very handy utility that minimises the steps required to go straight to the free .pdf versions of their publications - just wow what an ethical move to try and increase user education.

Personally I've purchased many of the specific subject booklets to then appreciate being able to freely obtain the digital version and vice versa.

Well done!
Last edited by CaptainMidnight on Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jamesh
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:23 pm

CaptainMidnight wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:13 pm
Bookshelf has got to be potentially one of the most underrated included programs preloaded in the latest desktop build !

Not many commercial companies at all, that produce high quality documentatiion for users to buy AND/OR freely download .pdf versions would create a very hand utility that minimises the steps required to go straight to the free .pdf versions of their publications - just wow what an ethical move to try and increase user education.

Personally I've purchased many of the specific subject booklets to then appreciate being able to freely obtain the digital version and vice versa.

Well done!
Thanks! I'll pass this on to the people involved!
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bensimmo
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:57 pm

andrum99 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:46 am
andrum99 wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:11 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:30 pm
...
I get plenty of free stuff form Google Store and Microsoft Store.
...
They also contain stuff that costs money, like a real store. Calling something that contains only free stuff a 'store' would be counter-intuitive.
Also, the purpose of the 'Recommended Software' app, as I understand it, is to have a place where Raspberry Pi can point to software which they recommend, beyond what is installed in the recommended OS image. Taking the word 'recommended' off it would defeat that.
I don't understand.

You just have a tab for Recommended Software in the 'Store' and point them there.
you can then add others, like Additional Software etc.
If they used a similar system to the book shelf for listings, they could even have a tab As Used in MagPi this month etc.
of course it's more work for people involved though.

But it's just a suggestion to modernise it and make it more everyday user friendly and findable.
Which is against most users here, including myself, who say sudo apt install ... as its easier than writing out the GUI instructions.


As for the bookshelf :-)

hippy
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:43 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:57 pm
You just have a tab for Recommended Software in the 'Store' and point them there.
you can then add others, like Additional Software etc.
I am not clear on what else a Store would have in it alongside that, what purpose it would be serving, how it would be curated.

It would probably be best to take the discussion on Recommended Software / a future Store to another thread, or perhaps continue the discussion here - viewtopic.php?t=268455

g1gsw
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Re: Please don't bundle / preinstall bookshelf in the distribution.

Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:40 pm

I love it makes it easy to find all my downloaded Magpie files etc, pity it only goes to 31 as I have all copies of the Magpie downloaded from version 1 :D

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