pfharlock
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:30 pm

Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Tue May 26, 2020 8:14 pm

My request is to create and maintain a full 64 bit version of Raspbian for those users who want to run it and don't mind giving up compatibility with the older pi's.

I am sure this request has been made many times. Among the partial or complete reasons why not to do it that I can think of include...

binary compatibility with the pi zero and other 32 bit boards mean you can develop on pi 4 and swap the sd card to deploy
binary compatibility across the line means less confusion for new users
There isn't a significant speed benefit, (not enough to get excited about)
until we have pi's that have more than 4 gigs of ram there isn't a hard core reason to want to do it
maintaining binaries for two architectures represents double the work for the distro maintainers
for making projects in particular there's probably zero benefit to offering a 64 bit version of the os.

Here is my reason for wanting a 64 bit version of the os.

I'm a raspberry pi desktop user (already that puts me into a different class than most). Many of the applications I try to use (I'd say the number is starting to push 25% overall), either have broken 32 bit versions or have explicitly dumped 32 bit support either themselves or a crucial dependency/library. These problems don't exist in their 64 bit counterparts. My only explanation for this is that most developers are getting to the point where they only develop and test on 64 bit platforms and thus there are bugs in the 32 bit versions that the maintainers literally don't know about and don't have a convenient way of reproducing.

An incomplete list of software that have run afoul of this problem (that I use) includes
Hedgewars (broken)
FreeCad (broken)
OpenScad (missing from repo because the maintainer doesn't make 32 bit versions anymore)
Xonotic (not part of debian repo, but it would likely work on 64 bit platform)
some qt5 libraries seem to not support 32 bit, (weird but frustrating)

Many of these pieces of software have educational applications that would benefit the pi's educational mission (openscad and freecad). The games while not quite as good for educational purposes make the platform more appealing to young users.

This phenomenon of decreased reliability/support for 32 bit versions of the software seems to be a phenomenon that has become problematic for me only within the last 2 years or so, but it's not just a single project, there are many open source projects that seem to be leaving 32 bit platforms behind (simply because the maintainers can't reproduce the bugs on the hardware they have).

I invite anyone and everyone to comment on this thread. Do you guys have the same problems I'm having? Interested in the conversation.

User avatar
rpdom
Posts: 17174
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 5:17 am
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Tue May 26, 2020 8:25 pm

As you said, this has been brought up many times before.

You have also listed many of the pros and cons of this.

If it is going to happen (and I suspect it will), the Pi people are probably working hard on it (among their many other projects). If so, it will be announced when it is ready.

One of the main issues that you didn't mention is that the Videocore hardware on the SoC is 32-bit on all Pis. Even those with 64-bit capability. The 64 to 32 bit interface needs to be sorted out.
Unreadable squiggle

User avatar
DougieLawson
Posts: 39139
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:19 pm
Location: A small cave in deepest darkest Basingstoke, UK
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Tue May 26, 2020 8:28 pm

Try using Sakaki's stuff.
That's either the 64-bit Gentoo or raspbian-nspawn.

If that doesn't float your boat try Ubuntu 20.04 64-bit.

The chances of seeing a 64-bit Raspbian before Bullseye emerges as stable are close to zero.
Note: Any requirement to use a crystal ball or mind reading will result in me ignoring your question.

Criticising any questions is banned on this forum.

Any DMs sent on Twitter will be answered next month.
All non-medical doctors are on my foes list.

User avatar
kerry_s
Posts: 760
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:14 pm

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Tue May 26, 2020 8:44 pm

nope, i use the right tools for the job. have an old laptop i rebuilt, i have it running pop!_os it pretty much does everything the rpi does not.

i use my rpi4 4gb as a desktop, it fills the task, there's always some alternative apps or way to get what i want done accomplished.
i also have a rpi0w, it runs pihole+unbound & serves as a storage device i access with ssh.

if ever i wanted to run 64bit on a rpi, i would go with ubuntu, lets face it debian software is always old, if i need 64bit i probably need newer supporting software to match, simply put ubuntu is going to be more updated, an linux wise it's the go to when creating linux apps.

just my personal thoughts :D

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 26665
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Tue May 26, 2020 8:51 pm

Worth noting that the name Raspbian is, specifically, the name of a 32bit Hard Float distribution of Debian targeted at the Pi boards.

So there can be no such thing as a 64bit Raspbian!!
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

pfharlock
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:30 pm

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Tue May 26, 2020 9:11 pm

So, I selfishly want my cake and to eat it too. I like raspbian better than ubuntu/gentoo/other because it specifically targets the pi inclusive of really great drivers/libraries/applications that aren't present by default (or at all) in other distros, but I want my 64 bit support too (mainly so that I can use apps that for whatever reason seem to require it).

User avatar
scruss
Posts: 3220
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:25 pm
Location: Toronto, ON
Contact: Website

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Tue May 26, 2020 9:29 pm

pfharlock wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:14 pm
FreeCad (broken)
it's a build of stable 0.18.4, but it works (mostly): viewtopic.php?f=66&t=244151&start=50#p1612419
OpenScad (missing from repo because the maintainer doesn't make 32 bit versions anymore)
not quite the reason, but here's an AppImage for 2019.05 that works: https://github.com/koendv/openscad-raspberrypi/releases
‘Remember the Golden Rule of Selling: “Do not resort to violence.”’ — McGlashan.
Pronouns: he/him

pfharlock
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:30 pm

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Wed May 27, 2020 1:18 am

it's a build of stable 0.18.4, but it works (mostly): viewtopic.php?f=66&t=244151&start=50#p1612419
As far as I can tell it won't create a new document, it just crashes immediately as soon as it tries to render any 3d content.

People have had luck getting it to run on ubuntu from the forum posts I've read (ie they install from repo and it works directly).

I also followed some instructions on how to build it against python 2.7 and qt4 libs and that also works, (I've verified it works).
the instructions for that are here... https://scruss.com/blog/2020/02/16/free ... erry-pi-4/

Thankyou greatly for the appimage link to openscad, I will grab it

pfharlock
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:30 pm

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Wed May 27, 2020 1:31 am

also, for hedgewars, if you download the buster backport of the latest version of hedgewars, they have fixed the bug that affects 32 bit platforms. You have to grab the armhf version and that installs fine in raspbian.

(for those interested in howto get it to work with relatively little effort). Here are links...

https://packages.debian.org/buster-backports/hedgewars
https://packages.debian.org/buster-back ... ewars-data

you can install simply with "sudo dpkg -i hedgewars.deb hedgewars-data.deb"

User avatar
scruss
Posts: 3220
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:25 pm
Location: Toronto, ON
Contact: Website

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Wed May 27, 2020 1:32 am

pfharlock wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 1:18 am
I also followed some instructions on how to build it against python 2.7 and qt4 libs and that also works, (I've verified it works).
the instructions for that are here... https://scruss.com/blog/2020/02/16/freecad-on-raspberry-pi-4/
Note the URL … and note my user name. The instructions should be identical. So if the one posted here crashes and the one on my website works, we got problems.
‘Remember the Golden Rule of Selling: “Do not resort to violence.”’ — McGlashan.
Pronouns: he/him

pfharlock
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:30 pm

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Thu May 28, 2020 11:50 am

Well, I guess my prayers have been answered.... I honestly wasn't expecting that kind of turn around :)

I'm feeling weirdly prophetic this morning :)

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 26665
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Thu May 28, 2020 11:57 am

We never announce stuff in advance, so we quite often get threads like this where the engineers cannot say anything...
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

User avatar
mahjongg
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 13102
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:19 am
Location: South Holland, The Netherlands

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Thu May 28, 2020 11:58 am

It was never claimed it was impossible to have a 64-bit Raspberry PI OS, only that it would be double the work to maintain two separate versions Raspberry PI OS-32 bit and Raspberry PI OS-64-bit.

It was inevitable that it would eventually happen, and now we have an 8GB version the need became irrefutable (for technical reasons I won't go into).

pfharlock
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:30 pm

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Thu May 28, 2020 12:21 pm

I'm sure you guys have thought of this too which isn't one of my current problems, but I'm excited about all the same...

The new 8 gig model will help make the pi the goto board for machine learning applications :) This was an excellent way to wake up this morning. Thank you to everyone at the pi foundation for your work on this (and just in general). You guys rock :)

leggazoid
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:58 pm

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Fri May 29, 2020 3:38 am

I am enjoying the Raspberry Pi OS 64-bit and I think it is pretty awesome.

Freecad works now, so that's a huge plus for me.

VNC-server is probably the thing I miss the most and I hope that is temporary. I think this will be requested by many.

Minecraft-Pi is not in the 64-bit either. Not a deal breaker for me.

Chromium is updated to version 80 with 64-bit. That is nice to have. WebGL still works https:/cad.onshape.com/check

All that being said you can have the best of both worlds at the cost of a micro-sd card and a reboot. Or that will give you an excuse to buy a 8Gb model.

Thank you Raspberry Pi team!

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 23363
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Fri May 29, 2020 5:22 am

leggazoid wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:38 am
I am enjoying the Raspberry Pi OS 64-bit and I think it is pretty awesome.

Freecad works now, so that's a huge plus for me.

VNC-server is probably the thing I miss the most and I hope that is temporary. I think this will be requested by many.

Minecraft-Pi is not in the 64-bit either. Not a deal breaker for me.

Chromium is updated to version 80 with 64-bit. That is nice to have. WebGL still works https:/cad.onshape.com/check

All that being said you can have the best of both worlds at the cost of a micro-sd card and a reboot. Or that will give you an excuse to buy a 8Gb model.

Thank you Raspberry Pi team!

Raspberry Pi OS ARM64 is still BETA so not yet ready for prime time :shock:
Rather than negativity think outside the box !
RPi 4B 4GB (SSD Boot)..
Asus ChromeBox 3 Celeron is my other computer...

graham.reeds
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:35 pm

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Fri May 29, 2020 1:04 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 5:22 am
Raspberry Pi OS ARM64 is still BETA so not yet ready for prime time :shock:
When has that ever stopped anyone?!

User avatar
DougieLawson
Posts: 39139
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:19 pm
Location: A small cave in deepest darkest Basingstoke, UK
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Fri May 29, 2020 1:06 pm

graham.reeds wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:04 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 5:22 am
Raspberry Pi OS ARM64 is still BETA so not yet ready for prime time :shock:
When has that ever stopped anyone?!
It's not meant to stop you. It's meant to remind you it may break your system, don't run it on a production service, you need a reliable backup and to not be surprised when things don't work in the way you expected.
Note: Any requirement to use a crystal ball or mind reading will result in me ignoring your question.

Criticising any questions is banned on this forum.

Any DMs sent on Twitter will be answered next month.
All non-medical doctors are on my foes list.

pfharlock
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:30 pm

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Fri May 29, 2020 9:33 pm

I just tried 64 bit version of Raspberry Pi OS.

Many things fixed, (I broke some other stuff :(, but when researching cause I'm not sure there is any solution)....

Freecad.. Installs and runs fine
openscad.. installs and runs fine
hedgewars.. installs and runs fine
Xonotic.. same issue I had with 32 bit version, so clearly there's something else going on here.
widevine plugin... no bueno... I think I just read something that suggested that there is only a 32 bit version of the library for arm platforms... That's a bit of a bummer, but I'll live.

I don't know if it's my imagination or not, but my system seems to be running smoother under 64 bit os (just web browsing). Maybe it's the updated version of chromium, not sure. Youtube seems to work fine.

So far, it seems nice, and I can always swap cards if I have to :)

pfharlock
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:30 pm

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Fri May 29, 2020 9:40 pm

Also, youtube always used to crash if I used my arrow keys to move videos forward and backward too quickly...

I've been trying to make youtube crash on 64 bit os, it hasn't crashed once so far, so whatever the issue was there seems to have sorted itself out, again possibly because of the update chromium. Whatever the reason the stability is a welcome surprise :)

Rolly
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:01 am

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Sun May 31, 2020 5:36 pm

Given that VNC server doesn't work for connecting in to a headless Pi, I found that NoMachine for ARM - arm64
https://www.nomachine.com/download/down ... =109&s=ARM works just fine.
Its alpha software works nicely with raspios beta software.

ejolson
Posts: 5380
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Sun May 31, 2020 5:43 pm

Rolly wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 5:36 pm
Given that VNC server doesn't work for connecting in to a headless Pi, I found that NoMachine for ARM - arm64
[url][https://www.nomachine.com/download/down ... &s=ARM/url] works just fine.
Its alpha software works nicely with raspios beta software.
I'm using xrdp with xorgxrdp which allows the Pi to be accessed using remote desktop on a Windows computer with no additional software needed. Is RasPiOS going to be the unofficial new name for the new official operating system?

http://xrdp.org/

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 26665
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Sun May 31, 2020 9:39 pm

PIOS32, PIO64, RASPIOS, RPIOS etc etc etc
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

leggazoid
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:58 pm

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Sun May 31, 2020 10:47 pm

Temporary RealVNC server alternative for Raspi OS 64bit until a aarch64 version is available.

Tried vino with much success for the server, it is comparable to realvnc but you lose the ability of the cloud connection.
Need dconf-editor to enable and adjust settings.

Code: Select all

 sudo apt install vino dconf-editor 
The following link has details. I left encryption enabled and it worked fine. Disabling encryption may be faster and safe enough behind a router.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/vie ... o#p825078


Tried vinagre and remmina for the client, both work fine.

Code: Select all

 sudo apt install vinagre remmina 

pfharlock
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:30 pm

Re: Request for 64 bit raspbian.

Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:14 am

Another program to add to the list of things that work in their 64 bit version where the 32 bit version did not work...

red eclipse (fps game) seems to work now :)

Return to “Raspberry Pi OS”