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rin67630
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Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:58 am

Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...
We have also got many folders in /usr/share containing stuff from the original Debian desktop that almost nobody will ever use.
Are they really still required?

jahboater
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:54 am

rin67630 wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:58 am
Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...
So do SD cards :)

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rpdom
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:02 am

jahboater wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:54 am
rin67630 wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:58 am
Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...
So do SD cards :)
Not sure about that. I've been watching mine carefully for a long time and they are still the same size (and capacity). Should I water them or use fertiliser, do you think?

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PeterO
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:57 pm

rin67630 wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:58 am
Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...
We have also got many folders in /usr/share containing stuff from the original Debian desktop that almost nobody will ever use.
Are they really still required?
Rather than moaning about it, why don't you just delete them and find out ?
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emma1997
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:52 pm

Yeah, that should take less than a month.

It seems to boil down to little people vs BIG PEOPLE. One enjoys minimizing hardware and software while the other chooses most powerful (usually wasteful and expensive) solution. BIG PEOPLE like to plow down the highway in a Hummer or monster truck while others fine with Prius or Scion. I have a car but prefer electric bike around town.

Personally I find this universal tendency toward bloatware annoying. I fondly recall fitting the OS on a 1gig SD. Ah... those were the days. Now it can barely be squeezed into a 4gig and they recommend quadruple that.

I actually use 4gig partitions on 32gig cards for most setups. Download and backup times are minutes now instead of hours.

Main benefit doing this is bigger cards are so much faster. Surprisingly the big ones are cheaper too. However I need the little ones to force small images so it's worth paying extra.

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DougieLawson
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:21 am

rin67630 wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:58 am
Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...
We have also got many folders in /usr/share containing stuff from the original Debian desktop that almost nobody will ever use.
Are they really still required?
Start with Raspbian Lite and add things you need.

There's about 3GB of junk in full fat Raspbian that never gets used on my systems - it's a long and pointless exercise to purge all of that bloat.
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Gavinmc42
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:00 am

Start with Raspbian Lite and add things you need.
That's like saying a small sumo is not very big?

Plenty of options now at both ends, Buildroot, PiCore, Alpine to Raspbian, Gentoo64, Ubuntu ...
Been playing with Gentoo64 Lite and looking at Window and Desktop managers.
So many options and probably 99% never tested or used yet and that is just one distribution.

The number of OS options is getting bigger as the 64bit ones get up to speed.
I thought Ubuntu server was going to be small, was I wrong.

So option start small and add or big and prune?

And then there is the apps that just work now on Pi4.
Many many options that do the same thing, so many to choose from and test to see if they work
These days I need 128GB uSD for Raspbian and 64GB for Gentoo64.
And that's just because I'm waiting for USB SSD boot.
Going to need TB storage as these Pi become my preferred desktops.
And I still have not decided on what Desktop or Windowing Manager.

Options, so many, learning all about them is yet more learning.
There seems to be even more stuff to learn than when Pi's first came out.
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rpdom
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:37 am

As all of my Pis run headless, and mostly just with command line, I always start with Raspbian Lite and add *and* prune as I need. I have systems running that could work on a 2GB card. I'm sure I can trim those down a bit too.
One example running Buster Lite with some packages added and some removed:

Code: Select all

[email protected]:~ $ df -h /
Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
/dev/mmcblk0p1  253M   52M  201M  21% /boot
/dev/root       6.9G  1.3G  5.3G  20% /

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:26 am

Headless is great, most of mine fit on a 128MB card but those are hard to find now.
PiCore in the smallest x11 OS I use, but that I think could be smaller.
With Ultibo some of my kernels are smaller than start.elf.
For embedded and headless reliable single layer flash SD's are desirable but getting scarcer.

Not sure if anyone has got SPI booting to work on VC4 Pi's.
Obviously it works on Pi4 :D
So my Pi's currently go from 128MB to 128GB, which shows how useful they are.
I think that could be pushed down to 8MB and up to 8TB without effort?
Scaling from 1 to 1000 times to 1 to 1Million times storage :o .

Reliable OS storage is now my concern for Desktop Pi4's.
.
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PeterO
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:04 am

emma1997 wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:52 pm
Yeah, that should take less than a month.

It seems to boil down to little people vs BIG PEOPLE. One enjoys minimizing hardware and software while the other chooses most powerful (usually wasteful and expensive) solution.
Poor analogy. How is having a few Gb of data on sd card wasteful or expensive ? There is no on going costs, no additional electricity consumption.

I think some people like to spend their time worrying about such things so they customise their systems to make them "shiny" while others just use them as tools to allow them to do projects.

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Heater
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:55 am

emma1997,
However I need the little ones to force small images so it's worth paying extra.
I can't make any sense out of that at all.

Anyway, I have a great suggestion that will save you money. By those cheaper, bigger, faster SD cards we have everywhere now a days. The trick is to make your image partition as small as you want, leave the rest unused.

:)
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:20 am

Shiny tools?

But I am finding these A1 cards pretty good, the sole A2 I have is fine too.
Just happy the price of them came down when the Pi4 came out.
It is demented a card with 128GB is so small, so scared it might blow away.
I can still remember buying my first 10MB harddrive.
It was not a Winchester but a Western Digital 3.5" a new fangled storage method.

What I would really like is portable apps I can keep on USB sticks or SDD drives.
Installing software and then breaking the OS is getting tiring.
Having the basic OS on SD and the apps separate could help.
Not sure if Docker could do this, don't know enough about it.

Anyway the bloat is making me learn about DIY distributions.
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:12 pm

My attitude to Raspbian bloat is that, if it's not adversely affecting me or the system, just leave it there, ignore it, forget about it. Using a bigger SD Card, if that is a requirement, isn't that onerous nor even more costly these days, they are often cheaper.

In the past I would remove Mathematica, Sonic Pi, Java, and Libre Office, because they caused adversely large update downloads and I never used them, but that issue has been resolved.

I also install Raspbian Desktop in preference to Lite, so it's easier to move that card to another Pi if I ever need to, mostly for testing or validating some other PI, even if it's on a system which is intended to be headless. The gain outweighs the disadvantage.

But with that said I do have many smaller SD Cards which I don't like seeing go to waste. I reserve those for Bare Metal projects or where the chosen OS can work with smaller cards.

I can appreciate wanting to not have smaller cards go to waste but trying to shrink Raspbian to be as small as it can be just seems a waste of effort to me. In most cases it seems akin to be picking up numerous small breadcrumbs with little overall gain.

But I would support the point directed at the Raspbian maintainers that "if it's not needed, don't include it". But I can also appreciate that taking out the redundant cruft, which is not having a major adverse impact, may be way down the priority list. Plus the argument, if one's not entirely sure of the impact of removing something, don't have the time to investigate that, it's safer to leave it in than take it out.

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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:20 pm

hippy wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:12 pm
But I would support the point directed at the Raspbian maintainers that "if it's not needed, don't include it". But I can also appreciate that taking out the redundant cruft, which is not having a major adverse impact, may be way down the priority list. Plus the argument, if one's not entirely sure of the impact of removing something, don't have the time to investigate that, it's safer to leave it in than take it out.
And who specifies what is needed? I don't use Emacs, so that should go straight away. And any GPIO's libraries - I don't use those. Or QT. Or Python.

What's that you say Skippy? You want those things? Little Donny is stuck down a well with no Emacs?
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GlowInTheDark
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:25 pm

In the past I would remove Mathematica, Sonic Pi, Java, and Libre Office, because they caused adversely large update downloads and I never used them, but that issue has been resolved.
Has it (been resolved) ?

Isn't it still true that if you have any of those big packages installed, and an update comes through for one of them, you're looking at a longer-than-usual "apt-get upgrade" process?

Or are you suggesting that you are (and are recommending to others) using "raspbian with desktop" and not "raspbian with desktop and recommended software" (or whatever they are calling it this week) ?
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:30 pm

GlowInTheDark wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:25 pm
In the past I would remove Mathematica, Sonic Pi, Java, and Libre Office, because they caused adversely large update downloads and I never used them, but that issue has been resolved.
Has it (been resolved) ?

Isn't it still true that if you have any of those big packages installed, and an update comes through for one of them, you're looking at a longer-than-usual "apt-get upgrade" process?

Or are you suggesting that you are (and are recommending to others) using "raspbian with desktop" and not "raspbian with desktop and recommended software" (or whatever they are calling it this week) ?
Mathematica was a big problem - required a HUGE download to update. I think it's much smaller now, but TBH, I remove it most times anyway as I never use it. https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 4&t=164034
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hippy
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:02 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:20 pm
hippy wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:12 pm
But I would support the point directed at the Raspbian maintainers that "if it's not needed, don't include it". But I can also appreciate that taking out the redundant cruft, which is not having a major adverse impact, may be way down the priority list. Plus the argument, if one's not entirely sure of the impact of removing something, don't have the time to investigate that, it's safer to leave it in than take it out.
And who specifies what is needed? I don't use Emacs, so that should go straight away. And any GPIO's libraries - I don't use those. Or QT. Or Python.
I was meaning directories and configuration files which are no longer required, serve no purpose, are there simply because they haven't been removed, are simply historical artefacts.

On what's deemed required or not application-wise I have no idea who decides, but I presume someone does. I would guess Raspbian basically follows what Debian does, but someone somewhere must be making the call whether any application is pre-installed in the desktop list, is included in a distribution, is apt-get installable, or no longer available.
GlowInTheDark wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:25 pm
In the past I would remove Mathematica, Sonic Pi, Java, and Libre Office, because they caused adversely large update downloads and I never used them, but that issue has been resolved.
Has it (been resolved) ? ...

Or are you suggesting that you are (and are recommending to others) using "raspbian with desktop" and not "raspbian with desktop and recommended software" (or whatever they are calling it this week) ?
In the sense that they are no longer installed without any choice but to have them, that there is now the option of choosing Raspbian Lite, Desktop, and Desktop with Recommended Software, I would say so.

The only recommendation I would make is that users pick the installation which best suits their needs and use cases.
Last edited by hippy on Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GlowInTheDark
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:06 pm

In the sense that they are no longer installed without any choice but to have them, that there is now the option of choosing Raspbian Lite, Desktop, and Desktop with Recommended Software, I would say so.
Yeah, but. Aren't most people going to always go with the full version? (Most aren't going to know any better)
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hippy
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:10 pm

GlowInTheDark wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:06 pm
In the sense that they are no longer installed without any choice but to have them, that there is now the option of choosing Raspbian Lite, Desktop, and Desktop with Recommended Software, I would say so.
Yeah, but. Aren't most people going to always go with the full version? (Most aren't going to know any better)
Maybe, but I doubt that's a problem for the people who would do that.

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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:13 pm

hippy wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:02 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:20 pm
And who specifies what is needed? I don't use Emacs, so that should go straight away. And any GPIO's libraries - I don't use those. Or QT. Or Python.
I was meaning directories and configuration files which are no longer required, serve no purpose, are there simply because they haven't been removed, are simply historical artefacts.
Got a list? I've sure Serge will be able to remove anything no longer needed in the base install. Not aware of any myself.
hippy wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:02 pm
On what's deemed required or not application-wise I have no idea who decides, but I presume someone does. I would guess Raspbian basically follows what Debian does, but someone somewhere must be making the call whether any application is pre-installed in the desktop list, is included in a distribution, is apt-get installable, or no longer available.
We follow Debian, with a few Pi specific additions, like Sonic Pi, Mathematica etc. When deciding what is going to be included, we leave that to the boss. The Big Boss. He has a surprising amount on input in to that and the desktop itself, even down to the icon design...
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Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
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GlowInTheDark
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:26 pm

Regarding the "big" packages (Mathematica/Wolfram, Sonic Pi, etc). It's one of those situations where most people don't use it (at least that's the impression I get from reading the forum), but it really has to be there for those who want it. I.e., specifically the kind of person who wants/needs it, is the kind who is really not going to want to have to go out and get/install it. There are a lot of situations like this in the world.

But do note that the argument "It's just disk space and disk space (even on SD cards) is cheap nowadays" and "If you don't use it, don't worry; it won't hurt you; it's just sitting there" - while valid on one level - misses the point that where you pay is when you do an upgrade (of a big package that you don't need or care about). Yes, there are ways to fix this (i.e., remove the big packages that you don't need), the fact is that most users aren't going to know this - and aren't going to have the sophistication to find it out.

So, the situation is not ideal. But it is probably as good as it can be.
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hippy
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:30 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:13 pm
hippy wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:02 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:20 pm
And who specifies what is needed? I don't use Emacs, so that should go straight away. And any GPIO's libraries - I don't use those. Or QT. Or Python.
I was meaning directories and configuration files which are no longer required, serve no purpose, are there simply because they haven't been removed, are simply historical artefacts.
Got a list? I've sure Serge will be able to remove anything no longer needed in the base install. Not aware of any myself.
Nor me. As I said, "My attitude to Raspbian bloat is that, if it's not adversely affecting me or the system, just leave it there, ignore it, forget about it".

It's the OP Serge needs to be talking to.

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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:40 pm

hippy wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:30 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:13 pm
hippy wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:02 pm

I was meaning directories and configuration files which are no longer required, serve no purpose, are there simply because they haven't been removed, are simply historical artefacts.
Got a list? I've sure Serge will be able to remove anything no longer needed in the base install. Not aware of any myself.
Nor me. As I said, "My attitude to Raspbian bloat is that, if it's not adversely affecting me or the system, just leave it there, ignore it, forget about it".

It's the OP Serge needs to be talking to.
OP talking to Serge rather than the other way round...interrupt, not polling.
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Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
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hippy
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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:48 pm

GlowInTheDark wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:26 pm
So, the situation is not ideal. But it is probably as good as it can be.
It can probably only be bettered by educating users as to what the options are, what the pro's and con's of each are, allowing them to make an informed decision, and having them do that.

I suppose there could be a download page which asks questions as to what a user imagines they will be wanting to do, or not do, with their Pi which can lead them to the best download to use and tell them the steps then required to achieve what they want.

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Re: Raspbian gets bigger and bigger...

Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:08 pm

Personally I think that keeping it simple is the best approach. Following Debian for the most part and providing 3 entrance points (server/basic, standard desktop, and desktop with goodies) addresses most folks needs. Honestly if you are concerned about the exact size, or the existence of some extra packages you likely have the knowledge to deal with them. I like starting with Raspbian Lite and building up.

Given the cost differential these days this is really a non issue for most folks and I suspect that stripping expected functionality out just to save a bit of storage is not going to work that well as it will be the most confusing for the folks least able to cope with resolving it. Simple is GOOD.

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