braselectron wrote: ↑
Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:06 am
Since I work/play with embedded systems for some time, first I would like to make a stand here: "wheezy (and other outdated systems by some comments I read frequently) are not "very old"! Actually there have been some crazy reference in respect to "time" as I read in many forums, during my research.
I'm also an embedded developer, and I have been for a "long time"...
I have read your (braselectron) post and while I mostly agree with you, I think you should take your own advice: "Keep Calm!" and re-read what you have typed before posting cause there are some typos in there. "Well I sad it". It makes it look like an old crazy person shaking their cane and yelling "These damn kids and their internet, in my time..." ; )
I expect more precision from an embedded developer... : )
... but looking at IoT vulnerabilities maybe I shouldn't... : (
I really don't like the Linux "LTS" policy.
5 year isn't that long!
Windows XP had 10 years of support, Windows 7 too... (Win 10 and servers also have Long Term Servicing Channel with 10 years of support)
And even a decade wasn't long enough for some people... (including the navy who runs some old computers/software on their ships)
(Fun question: How often do you want to run upgrade scripts on nuclear reactors? For other fun fact you can look up the age of Beznau nuclear power plant. That is long term service! ; )
Of course 5 years isn't the worst... that award goes to Android, which might have the worst support : (
Windows and Microsoft isn't perfect (and Win 10... made me think I would rather switch to a Linux distro before switching to Win 10... but then I used Linux desktop... it's not great), but at least they know what long means... I think we should aspire for more and not less...
Speaking of Linux upgrade experience...
A couple of month back while upgrading xubuntu with not enough space on /boot for the new kernel (because that's how the default/recommended setup partitioned it on install) I got a nice "not enough space on stdout" error while dpkg tried to unzip the kernel... (very informative error message by the way)
It bricked my VM (kernel panic on boot), had to restore from snapshot/backup : (
I did manage to upgrade my Raspbian Wheezy to Jessie and to Stretch and it went OK...ish
...Why cannot apt merge config files on update? Why isn't there an upgrade process for config files?
I had to manually review multiple config files, because "the package maintainer provided a new one" and apparently I did edit some files in /etc (who would have expected that you will configure your OS). (In most of them I modified some options, and the new package config had some updated comment/documentation. So, no lines had any conflict. I have etckeeper installed and cdiff, but even the side by side comparison didn't work.)
And these interruptions happened "randomly", not all at once in the beginning or at the end.
No windows update ever stopped and asked me what to do if I didn't use the default settings...
Wordpress upgrades database structures from any old version...
Somehow these can all handle config upgrades.
jamesh recommended keeping log, and that is great. Especially if you are developing embedded systems, having a script, documentation how to reproduce it is preferable. But not everyone wants to reinstall and start from scratch... Home users for one who set up their systems once upon a time and don't remember how/what they did. (Maybe they have a backup image, but not build scripts, didn't create ansible configs for it...) You can also have hard to reach deployed systems that should handle their update/upgrade on their own reliably without user/service personnel intervention... IoT anyone? You can't just reinstall live systems all the time.
Not everyone have time/expertise to keep upgrading their systems every year and learn the hot new thing (network manager, system d...), and they shouldn't have to!
When you go to the doctor they don't give you a user manual and say "here are the new drog resistant strains, here are the new medicine research, here is a chemistry lab where you can mix your cure, if you have any question feel free to post them on this forum"
Everyone should do their job well, so others can do their own job. (Doctors should spend their time on reading medical research and not reading Linux manual and upgrading OS instances... so they can cure you and you can go back writing code.)
Unfortunately the distribution upgrade experience is pretty shitty. : (
I know it's not fun to support old code, so we will probably never get it for free...
But thankfully there are some good people out there who care and help.
I just wanted nslookup and not spend hours upgrading a one off system.
Putting this into my /etc/apt/sources.list helped me:
rpdom wrote: ↑
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:50 am
Code: Select all
deb http://legacy.raspbian.org/raspbian/ wheezy main contrib non-free rpi
So, Thank you.