Milliways
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Raspbian bloated

Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:20 am

Once-upon-a-time you could install Raspbian on a 4 GiB SD Card.

I have however, normally used a 8 GiB SD Card - quite successfully (although I did remove wolfram-engine in late 2016, but more because this took so long to upgrade, and I did the same on a fresh install Stretch). I successfully upgraded in April 2018, but when I tried to install the latest upgrade this filled my SD Card and crashed. (My /home is only 0.65GiB)

While I now use 16 GiB SD Cards I have a fist full of 8 GiB SD Cards which I use in my older Pi.

After some not inconsiderable effort I managed to restore a working system by removing

Code: Select all

python-sense-hat python3-sense-hat python3-sense-emu python-sense-emu python-sense-emu-doc wolfram-engine python3-skywriter python-skywriter wolframscript scratch2 scratch
There are probably others I haven't found yet - suggestions welcome.

There is probably nothing wrong with these packages, but they are of no conceivable value to me - much as I imagine the few applications I have installed (nginx server, Arduino, Python wheels) would be of no use to most Raspbian users).

Raspbian seems to have become bloated - probably no different to other popular OS, but it would be preferable if these packages were optional installations (or at least come with a simple removal procedure).

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Laurens-wuyts
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Re: Raspbian bloated

Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:28 am

Well I totally agree with you. This is the first thing I do after installing raspbian on a Pi of mine.
https://raspi.tv/2016/how-to-free-up-so ... ibreoffice

Or I use Raspbian Lite :)

Laurens

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The Traveler
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Re: Raspbian bloated

Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:42 am

Raspbian seems to have become bloated - probably no different to other popular OS, but it would be preferable if these packages were optional installations (or at least come with a simple removal procedure).
Considering the main thrust of the Raspberry Pi is educational, that would seem counterproductive to me to some degree.

I guess it depends on what your needs are I suppose. I install Raspbian Lite, run headless and use the command line with tmux as a terminal manager. One can add a minimal window manager like i3. https://i3wm.org/

Cheers.
Last edited by The Traveler on Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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mikerr
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Re: Raspbian bloated

Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:44 pm

Milliways wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:20 am
Once-upon-a-time you could install Raspbian on a 4 GiB SD Card.
Yes, and I remember a time the NOOBS download came with a selection of OS predownloaded on the card too.
That was great for discovery of other OS, and still is if you connect to network first (to bring the list in NOOBS).

Times change though, and Raspbian Lite was developed as a lightweigtht CLI for headless users.
Raspbian seems to have become bloated - probably no different to other popular OS, but it would be preferable if these packages were optional installations (or at least come with a simple removal procedure).
And apt isn't a simple removal process ?

Ok, finding which packages to remove isn't always easy ...

There is always raspberry net inst to start from scratch:
https://github.com/FooDeas/raspberrypi-ua-netinst
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Re: Raspbian bloated

Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:48 pm

We are aware of the issue, and things are being discussed. There are certain things that are currently out of engineering control though, but hopefully will be dealt with in the near future.
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Milliways
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Re: Raspbian bloated

Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:00 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:48 pm
We are aware of the issue, and things are being discussed. There are certain things that are currently out of engineering control though, but hopefully will be dealt with in the near future.
Thanks for the response.

Although some others suggest Lite or headless, and these have their places, but I want a Desktop, and Raspbian is a good, fast efficient OS.
A middle road (GUI with essentials included and optional packages to suit different needs) would be welcome.

Until now I have been happy to have packages I do not use, but when I can no longer fit on my SD Card this becomes an issue.

PS The first computer I used with a HDD had a 20 MB disk (for the younger members that is NOT a typo) - before that I couldn't imagine why one would want a HDD when you could get 1MB on a 8" floppy.

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Re: Raspbian bloated

Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:05 pm

Milliways wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:00 pm
...
PS The first computer I used with a HDD had a 20 MB disk (for the younger members that is NOT a typo) - before that I couldn't imagine why one would want a HDD when you could get 1MB on a 8" floppy.
my first HD was 50MB it was RL encoded it also cost me £500
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droleary
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Re: Raspbian bloated

Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:52 pm

Milliways wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:20 am
Once-upon-a-time you could install Raspbian on a 4 GiB SD Card.
How much did that 4GB card cost at that time? What size card can you get for the same amount of money today?
Raspbian seems to have become bloated - probably no different to other popular OS, but it would be preferable if these packages were optional installations (or at least come with a simple removal procedure).
There's a lot to be said for having a simple baseline Raspbian install that allows you to sit down with any RPi and know what you're getting. There's not a lot to be said for doing a lot of software development on a customized installer just so a few people can save $5 on their storage.
Although some others suggest Lite or headless, and these have their places, but I want a Desktop, and Raspbian is a good, fast efficient OS.
And you can get that custom desktop, either by installing Lite and adding the packages you want, or by removing packages from a full install and then copying it to your smaller cards.
A middle road (GUI with essentials included and optional packages to suit different needs) would be welcome.
Everyone has their own unique "different needs". I don't think the RPF should be trying to cater to all possible configurations. Use the package manager as intended, maybe with configuration management software if necessary to automate it, and fill whatever niche you think of as "middle road".

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Re: Raspbian bloated

Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:21 pm

Milliways wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:20 am
There is probably nothing wrong with these packages, but they are of no conceivable value to me
Same here, but it's understandable things are included for educational users who are the primary target of the Pi and Raspbian, do not have experience of using computers, are best catered for by providing 'everything'.

The real issue is there's nothing which sits between Raspbian Lite and Raspbian 'Full' with all the educational apps.

I have tended towards installing Raspbian 'Full' and removing stuff I don't need, have resigned myself to needing to use bigger cards and receiving a potentially endless dribble of python stuff for things that I don't and won't ever need.

My preference would be for Raspbian Lite, Raspbian Desktop and Raspbian Educational.

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Re: Raspbian bloated

Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:44 pm

If you boot up Raspbian Lite, you can add on the GUI without any of the "bloat" by simply doing:

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get install raspberrypi-ui-mods
will take a while to run, and install all the packages though !

Whole thing fits on a 2GB card, preinstalled image here:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/raspian-lite-gui/ (updated just now to 2018-06-27 release)
Last edited by mikerr on Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Raspbian bloated

Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:25 pm

Milliways wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:20 am
There are probably others I haven't found yet - suggestions welcome.
minecraft-pi python-minecraftpi python-picraft python3-picraft python-scrollphathd python3-scrollphathd python-rainbowhat python3-rainbowhat python-automationhat python-blinkt python-buttonshim python-drumhat python-envirophat python-fourletterphat python-microdotphat python-pantilthat python-phatbeat python-pianohat python-unicornhathd python3-automationhat python3-blinkt python3-buttonshim python3-drumhat python3-envirophat python3-fourletterphat python3-microdotphat python3-pantilthat python3-phatbeat python3-pianohat python3-unicornhathd python-explorerhat python3-explorerhat python-motephat python-scrollphat python-touchphat python3-motephat python3-scrollphat python3-touchphat python-cap1xxx python-mote python-piglow python3-cap1xxx python3-mote python3-piglow

ejolson
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Re: Raspbian bloated

Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:29 pm

droleary wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:52 pm
There's not a lot to be said for doing a lot of software development on a customized installer just so a few people can save $5 on their storage.
In my opinion, a customized installer already exists and is exactly what led to Debian's popularity.

It is sometimes argued that the needs of many outweigh the needs of a few, see, for example
John 11:50 wrote:Neither do you consider that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
However, an operating system that values the needs of one user may, in the end, be of greater benefit to every user than an operating system that intentionally does injustice to all but the most common use case.

I started a similar thread about how the default operating system for the Raspberry Pi has become too complicated last week.

mattmiller
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Re: Raspbian bloated

Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:41 pm

There's not a lot to be said for doing a lot of software development on a customized installer just so a few people can save $5 on their storage.
+1

Raspberry Pi needs to have a load of pre-installed packages to cover the various permutations of their target audiences

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Re: Raspbian bloated

Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:28 pm

mattmiller wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:41 pm
There's not a lot to be said for doing a lot of software development on a customized installer just so a few people can save $5 on their storage.
+1

Raspberry Pi needs to have a load of pre-installed packages to cover the various permutations of their target audiences
Its a bit of a problem when you cannot fit it on something like the compute module which has 4Gb of EMMC memory.
Its not unreasonable to ask that the Raspberry Pi foundation supply an operating system that actually fits on their own hardware.
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mattmiller
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Re: Raspbian bloated

Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:46 pm

Its a bit of a problem when you cannot fit it on something like the compute module which has 4Gb of EMMC memory.
Its not unreasonable to ask that the Raspberry Pi foundation supply an operating system that actually fits on their own hardware.
I didn't know about that :(

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Re: Raspbian bloated

Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:28 am

ejolson wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:29 pm
However, an operating system that values the needs of one user may, in the end, be of greater benefit to every user than an operating system that intentionally does injustice to all but the most common use case.
Well, then that one user is welcome to create their own meta-package to install whatever software they think is the perfect step above Lite and release it to the benefit of every user that thinks exactly the same way. But don't ask or expect the RPF to go out of their way to support the endless stream of users who will have different ideas of what that "perfect" sweet spot should be.
I started a similar thread about how the default operating system for the Raspberry Pi has become too complicated last week.
Adding another installation tier doesn't reduce that complexity. Economies of scale means that keeping pace with progress is often the least complicated approach. The RPi platform is doomed if it cannot at least innovate along with the software advances of Debian and the hardware advances like larger, cheaper SD cards.

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Re: Raspbian bloated

Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:10 am

Raspbian has a purpose, which is why it comes with all the kitchen sink stuff, 16GB cards for that.
I have moved my development up onto Gentoo64 with 32GB cards.

Raspbian Lite for Pikrellcam security cameras.
I used to use PiCore Linux if it has to run 24/7.
Embedded gadgets now run single purpose Ultibo apps.

If anyone needs to run full Raspbian on CM's, I have a question, Why?
Start with Lite and only add what you need or use Buildroot to make a an OS.
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spl23
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Re: Raspbian bloated

Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:20 am

As a (partial) solution to this problem, the new release of Raspbian which is out today includes a new Recommended Software installer.

The intention is to make it easy to add or remove many of the packages which are useful to a section of Pi users but which are not part of the core OS. As a result, we are no longer shipping some packages which were preinstalled up until now.

In addition, if you wish to remove the educational software, the office suite etc to end up with a "clean" Raspbian, it is now trivial to do so from a GUI tool rather than having to deal with command-line apt.

In future releases, we hope to extend the use of this tool to try and make it easier to customise Raspbian for a particular user's requirements.

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Re: Raspbian bloated

Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:40 am

spl23 wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:20 am
As a (partial) solution to this problem, the new release of Raspbian which is out today includes a new Recommended Software installer.

The intention is to make it easy to add or remove many of the packages which are useful to a section of Pi users but which are not part of the core OS. As a result, we are no longer shipping some packages which were preinstalled up until now.

In addition, if you wish to remove the educational software, the office suite etc to end up with a "clean" Raspbian, it is now trivial to do so from a GUI tool rather than having to deal with command-line apt.

In future releases, we hope to extend the use of this tool to try and make it easier to customise Raspbian for a particular user's requirements.
I've just read read the changelog and saw that you exchanged xpdf by qpdfviewer as default PDF reader.
This is a memory hog!
My test case is a PDF document consisting of 47 scanned/photographed pages.
XPDF and evince both need about 70 MB to display the document, qpdfviewer needs 350 MB and pushed my system into heavy swapping.
Not a good choice for a 1GB computer, IMHO.
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spl23
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Re: Raspbian bloated

Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:55 am

gkreidl wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:40 am
I've just read read the changelog and saw that you exchanged xpdf by qpdfviewer as default PDF reader.
This is a memory hog!
My test case is a PDF document consisting of 47 scanned/photographed pages.
XPDF and evince both need about 70 MB to display the document, qpdfviewer needs 350 MB and pushed my system into heavy swapping.
Not a good choice for a 1GB computer, IMHO.
Xpdf is slow, has a dated and awkward UI, doesn't precache pages (and looks like software from the 1980s).

qpdfview uses more memory precisely because it does precache pages; that's why it is more usable on most documents. Reading a typical issue of the MagpI on Pi 3B (a 25-30MB PDF of 90-100 graphic heavy pages), qpdfview is a far better experience than xpdf.

Feel free to uninstall it and reinstall xpdf if you prefer.

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Re: Raspbian bloated

Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:25 am

spl23 wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:55 am
gkreidl wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:40 am
I've just read read the changelog and saw that you exchanged xpdf by qpdfviewer as default PDF reader.
This is a memory hog!
My test case is a PDF document consisting of 47 scanned/photographed pages.
XPDF and evince both need about 70 MB to display the document, qpdfviewer needs 350 MB and pushed my system into heavy swapping.
Not a good choice for a 1GB computer, IMHO.
Xpdf is slow, has a dated and awkward UI, doesn't precache pages (and looks like software from the 1980s).

qpdfview uses more memory precisely because it does precache pages; that's why it is more usable on most documents. Reading a typical issue of the MagpI on Pi 3B (a 25-30MB PDF of 90-100 graphic heavy pages), qpdfview is a far better experience than xpdf.

Feel free to uninstall it and reinstall xpdf if you prefer.
I agree, that XPDF is rather outdated. But there are better and more modern alternatives like evince, for example.
I know, how to install or remove software. I have installed almost all available PDF-viewers.

My kweb suite currently supports mudf, xpdf and evince. I'll add qpdfviewer in the next release (it supports an "opens at page ..." option as do the other three).

But I still believe that a PDF viewer that may push the system into swapping is not a good default for a system with small memory.
Minimal Kiosk Browser (kweb)
Slim, fast webkit browser with support for audio+video+playlists+youtube+pdf+download
Optional fullscreen kiosk mode and command interface for embedded applications
Includes omxplayerGUI, an X front end for omxplayer

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bensimmo
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Re: Raspbian bloated

Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:30 am

spl23 wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:20 am
As a (partial) solution to this problem, the new release of Raspbian which is out today includes a new Recommended Software installer.

The intention is to make it easy to add or remove many of the packages which are useful to a section of Pi users but which are not part of the core OS. As a result, we are no longer shipping some packages which were preinstalled up until now.

In addition, if you wish to remove the educational software, the office suite etc to end up with a "clean" Raspbian, it is now trivial to do so from a GUI tool rather than having to deal with command-line apt.

In future releases, we hope to extend the use of this tool to try and make it easier to customise Raspbian for a particular user's requirements.
Excellent :-)

Perhaps stick an announcement in the announcement section.

(Is it using the Zenity stuff that came down a few days back on one of my updates, had to search to see what it was?)

spl23
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Re: Raspbian bloated

Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:57 am

gkreidl wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:25 am
I agree, that XPDF is rather outdated. But there are better and more modern alternatives like evince, for example.
evince uses the new GNOME GUI style, which is inconsistent with everything else on the platform. It was ruled out of contention for that reason. I did evaluate all the PDF viewers I could find before making the change - I didn't just pick one at random...

spl23
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Re: Raspbian bloated

Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:00 am

bensimmo wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:30 am
(Is it using the Zenity stuff that came down a few days back on one of my updates, had to search to see what it was?)
I discovered a few days ago that the internationalisation support in Zenity (which is a package used to provide GTK dialog boxes from shell scripts) is completely broken in Stretch; in general, only about half the text strings displayed in a dialog would actually be translated. The new Zenity package is just a backport of the Buster version, which has fixed this problem. Unless you are using your Pi in a language other than English, there should be no noticeable difference; if you are using a Pi in a language other than English, you should find that a few more strings now appear in your chosen language.

ejolson
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Re: Raspbian bloated

Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:21 am

spl23 wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:57 am
evince uses the new GNOME GUI style, which is inconsistent with everything else on the platform.
I've also suffered when mixing reasonable programs with programs that use the new Gnome GUI, most notably gedit, geeqie and evince.

One would have though with all the advances, that it would be possible to reskin these programs to mix with any desktop theme. Either such things are impossible or surprisingly difficult. If anyone knows how to make the latest releases look and work like they did before, information how to do so would be greatly appreciated.

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