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Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:14 am
by fruitoftheloom
spl23 wrote:
Cancelor wrote:Okay, I get that this is an MIT thing.

Did Scratch 1 use Flash, does it no longer fulfil our educational goals?
No, Scratch 1 was a native ARM application. While it still works, many educational resources are now being released which use the new features in Scratch 2, and we need to be able to support them.

Please bear in mind that, for every complaint about Flash now being on the platform, there will have been another complaint about the lack of Scratch 2 on Pi. We can't please everybody on this issue, but it is easy enough to remove Flash if you don't want it - see the instructions higher up in this thread.
Yes, I understand your point, but surely you could of released a Chromium Version with Flash and a Chromium version without ??

That would of been best of both camps ??

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:21 am
by spl23
Not really - it would mean we were supporting multiple versions of a package; we would get support requests due to people having one version installed when they wanted the other etc. Not to mention that whichever of the two packages we included in our default image would be the wrong one for half the users...

Incidentally, Chrome is already moving over to prioritising HTML5 over Flash on sites which support both - by the end of this year, Chrome will only load Flash on sites which do not have an HTML5 alternative. Once this functionality makes it into the Chromium build for the Pi (which should be within the next few months), Flash playback will never occur in preference to HTML5.

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:30 am
by fruitoftheloom
spl23 wrote:Not really - it would mean we were supporting multiple versions of a package; we would get support requests due to people having one version installed when they wanted the other etc. Not to mention that whichever of the two packages we included in our default image would be the wrong one for half the users...

Incidentally, Chrome is already moving over to prioritising HTML5 over Flash on sites which support both - by the end of this year, Chrome will only load Flash on sites which do not have an HTML5 alternative. Once this functionality makes it into the Chromium build for the Pi (which should be within the next few months), Flash playback will never occur in preference to HTML5.
https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.or ... E3jf40OAAJ

That is good news, and by the way thanks for all the information given. :D

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:18 am
by mattmiller
There's no sane reason why the morons at MIT picked a dead technology for Scratch 2.0. The reason for that remains a complete mystery.
It wasn't dead (or even close to being) when they started the Scratch 2 project - HTML5 was in its infancy. Simply historical timing

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:04 pm
by LetHopeItsSnowing
This was bound to be a contentious subject on the forum. I cant abide flash, but I welcome its introduction to the Pi's ecosystem as it raises the accessibility and availability of service. Great job guys.

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:20 pm
by timrowledge
spl23 wrote:
Cancelor wrote:Okay, I get that this is an MIT thing.

Did Scratch 1 use Flash, does it no longer fulfil our educational goals?
No, Scratch 1 was a native ARM application. .
Well actually Scratch 1 up to 1.4 and the last NuScratch release is a Smalltalk application that runs on any platform supported by the SqueakFoundation. Which is pretty much everything.

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:05 pm
by dave j
spl23 wrote: The rpi-chromium-mods package, in addition to adding Flash, installs uBlock origin and h264ify, customises some aspects of the appearance of the browser (such as use of the openbox window theme), selects DuckDuckGo as the default search engine and applies a few command-line flags which may slightly improve performance. It makes no changes to binary code - it basically sets up preference files. (Oh, and it sets up blocking of Flash playback by default...)
Is there any reason why Flash is bundled in a package with other stuff that people might otherwise want? Putting it in a separate package, installed by default, would at least have allowed those who don't want it an easy way to exclude it from their systems whilst still getting the other bits.

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:06 am
by lb
Maybe a white list can be shipped that only enables Flash for specific sites by default? As far as I can see, it was only included because of Scratch 2, after all.

I'd also prefer to have Flash available in a separate package.

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:05 am
by mattmiller
Can Chromium be set to always allow Flash to run? (to save having to do it everytime starting up a Scratch2 project)
[edit]
Found it
type chrome://settings into url

scroll down and click on Advanced
Click on Content settings
Click on Manage Individual Plugins

enable Flash

exit and re-load Chromium
[/edit]
[editedit]
type chrome://plugins into url
[/endof] :)

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:13 am
by gkreidl
mattmiller wrote:Can Chromium be set to always allow Flash to run? (to save having to do it everytime starting up a Scratch2 project)
chrome://plugins

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:17 am
by mattmiller
chrome://plugins
Yep - thats a lot quicker :)

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:27 pm
by EdwinJ85
I know a lot people who do not like this change and the security problems it brings but as someone who runs a code club:

THANK YOU!

It isn't just scratch that uses flash, lots of educational software does. Google chrome includes flash for the same reason, not because we want flash to exist but because it is a legacy issue that makes the internet harder to use for the average user if excluded. The fact a Pi is now a viable replacement for a horde of overheating Dell computers from the early 00's will make my and many other clubs very excited. Heck, it now means the main selling point of Chromebooks for a code club is moot.

Anything that makes it easier for a 10 year old to get going in a code club session gets my applause. For me personally, the chance to play some old flash games on the Pi is very enticing...

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:45 am
by cjan
cjan wrote:
cjan wrote:update, want shutdown -> logout back.
sorry, Exit to command line = logout
after update, logout is back.

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:59 pm
by bensimmo
Excellent, this is going to make life easier and also make all the Scratch Olympics compatible (note, you may want to nudge MagPi to a new revision update to their publication)
Also MyMaths and many others should be able to run.. It does mean the ad-block will be working overtime I guess.

I'll see if I can get some updated and tested.
(though I know a lot have HTML5 variant in development,)

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:52 am
by Gavinmc42
Thanks for the flash plugin enable setting tricks.

In Oz we have education apps that need flash.
Literacy Planet, Reading eggs, Mathletics.
This makes a Pi3 now suitable for my kid to do his set homework on.
Makes it more affordable for families without PCs/laptops/tablets too.

Is it going to be fast enough? Time to plug it in the TV to get audio.
I do wish they used pure HTML5 instead of flash, but it based on old stuff.
Ground breaking tech at the time, but dated now.

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:34 pm
by mob-i-l
I can't get https://play.spotify.com/browse to work in Chromium on Raspbian, but it works in Chrome on Windows 10. Scratch 2 works in both. When I go to Spotify Web Player in Raspbian it immediately jumps to https://www.spotify.com/. In Windows 10 it stays on the original page. I have switched on always run Flash on chrome://plugins/.

I did get Spotify to work in a manually installed earlier Chromium with PepperFlash.

I would also like PepperFlash to work in Firefox on Raspbian, but the FreshPlayer isn't a package in Raspbian, but it does exist in Lubuntu for Raspberry Pi. Chromium doesn't start in Lubuntu for RPi.

BTW now everyone with Raspbian can try out my Scratch 2-programs: https://scratch.mit.edu/studios/254968/projects/

(BTW the main reason MIT choose Flash was to get gaming sounds without lag in browsers.)

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:06 pm
by mob-i-l
I also think that Flash should be in its own package, and not in rpi-chromium-mods. It's OK for me if Flash is installed by default, but it should be easy to uninstall. Here is how it looks during installation in Raspbian (Swedish) on Pi Zero:

Code: Select all

                                                                                
 ┌────────────────────┤ Konfigurerar rpi-chromium-mods ├─────────────────────┐  
 │                                                                           │  
 │ Adobe Flash Player. Copyright 1996-2015. Adobe Systems Incorporated. All  │  
 │ Rights Reserved.                                                          │  
 │                                                                           │  
 │ Adobe and Flash are either trademarks or registered trademarks in the     │  
 │ United States and/or other countries.                                     │  
 │                                                                           │  
 │                                  <Ok>                                     │  
 │                                                                           │  
 └───────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘  
                                                                                

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:58 pm
by insanityideas
EdwinJ85 wrote:I know a lot people who do not like this change and the security problems it brings but as someone who runs a code club:

THANK YOU!

....

Anything that makes it easier for a 10 year old to get going in a code club session gets my applause. For me personally, the chance to play some old flash games on the Pi is very enticing...
As someone else who runs a CodeClub I also agree with this... half the problem was caused by CodeClub updating all their tutorials with Scratch 2 screenshots where previously it was written for Scratch 1.4 ... but then they had to decide if they should support legacy or not, so frustrations aside they probably made the right call.

With education you need something that just works out of the box no tinkering around, which is totally what the foundation is aiming at, and I applaud them for everything they have achieved in that regard. When I first started CodeClub we had all the problems with school computers not being configured properly for Scratch, and things breaking all the time which can take up a significant amount of the session time to fix, at least with the Pi you know it will just switch on and work, and any problems are fixed with an SD card swap. I have been in schools before now where you started the lesson with 5 more craptops than you needed because by the end that many would have frozen up or never started up properly, and loading the web version of Scratch on 20 computers at the same time would slow the internet to a crawl for 5 minutes, which you had to fill with talking!!

Now if only Scratch would fit on the 7 inch official Pi touchscreens a bit better. ;)

Oh and will Scratch 2 be available as an offline version on the Pi's?? Internet isn't always available where CodeClubs happen.

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:36 pm
by fruitoftheloom
I am not bothered by the Semantics of whether or not Flash is worthy, my objection is:

a) the bundled package

b) not available for the ARMv6 RPi which breaks the mantra of backward compatibility

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:39 pm
by spl23
fruitoftheloom wrote:b) not available for the ARMv6 RPi which breaks the mantra of backward compatibility
In that case, do feel free to prevail upon Adobe to produce an ARMv6 build - it's not our fault that they don't... ;)

My guess is that it isn't worth their while optimising for an older architecture, and that Flash would struggle to produce decent performance on a single-core ARM6 anyway.

But by your argument, we shouldn't offer Flash to anyone just because we can't put it on older platforms, and I don't think that's the right thing to do in this instance.

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:42 pm
by spl23
insanityideas wrote:Oh and will Scratch 2 be available as an offline version on the Pi's?? Internet isn't always available where CodeClubs happen.
If it was, we probably wouldn't have bothered with Flash!

We'd much prefer to offer Scratch 2 as an offline application, but it requires Adobe AIR to run on the target platform, and Adobe withdrew support for AIR on Linux around 5 years ago. As a result, the chances of getting a working ARM build of AIR that will run Scratch 2 are pretty small - unless something changes in either Adobe's support for AIR or MIT's choice of delivery mechanism for Scratch, this is unfortunately unlikely to change.

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:33 am
by fruitoftheloom
spl23 wrote:
insanityideas wrote:Oh and will Scratch 2 be available as an offline version on the Pi's?? Internet isn't always available where CodeClubs happen.
If it was, we probably wouldn't have bothered with Flash!

We'd much prefer to offer Scratch 2 as an offline application, but it requires Adobe AIR to run on the target platform, and Adobe withdrew support for AIR on Linux around 5 years ago. As a result, the chances of getting a working ARM build of AIR that will run Scratch 2 are pretty small - unless something changes in either Adobe's support for AIR or MIT's choice of delivery mechanism for Scratch, this is unfortunately unlikely to change.
MiT really did screw Linux Users, wonderful :shock:

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:46 am
by Gavinmc42
MiT really did screw Linux Users, wonderful
I think you mean Abode.
MIT just used a nice tool that was available at the time.
That is the problem of use propriety stuff instead of open software.

Education markets get offered nice toys, they make stuff, then toy supply gets pulled.
Flash is another bit of code Education people in Oz got sucked into for Reading Eggs, Mathletics, Literacy Planet etc.

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:12 am
by fruitoftheloom
Gavinmc42 wrote:
MiT really did screw Linux Users, wonderful
I think you mean Abode.
MIT just used a nice tool that was available at the time.
That is the problem of use propriety stuff instead of open software.

Education markets get offered nice toys, they make stuff, then toy supply gets pulled.
Flash is another bit of code Education people in Oz got sucked into for Reading Eggs, Mathletics, Literacy Planet etc.
Adobe Air & Flash Playerfor Linux got pulled 5 years ago, pre-dates Scratch 2, so MiT dropped a big one, as does anyone else who developed ??

https://helpx.adobe.com/air/kb/install- ... linux.html

https://wiki.scratch.mit.edu/wiki/Scratch_2.0


Though Adobe have again started to limited support Flash Player in x86 Linux:

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2016/09/adob ... lash-linux

Re: Flash Player now available for Chromium

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:46 am
by mattmiller
Adobe Air & Flash Playerfor Linux got pulled 5 years ago, pre-dates Scratch 2, so MiT dropped a big one
It doesn't pre-date when development on Scratch2 started

Until Pi came along there were extremely few Linux computers in the hands of children

At the time of development - Flash was a reasonable technology to design and build Scratch 2 although Jens Moenig and Brian Harvey demonstrated that javascript was also viable at the time