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webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:23 pm
by Alexander Brown
Ok so I know why/how this happened but it's increasingly an issue.

Some context: In 2014 the Pi2 was still a way off (hard to imagine it's all so recent) so we were all sitting with our Pi & Pi+ getting to that inevitable point where you just need to Google something. The problem was that there was simply no good way to browse the web. Chromium was already far few versions behind and firefox / iceweasel had (and still do) shocking performance. Sure it ran but it wasn't great.

So the Pi Foundation and Collabora forked epiphany-browser and optimised it with various tweaks and GPU wizardry. All was well (unless you wanted twitter & facebook). See https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/web-browser-released/.

The Problem: it hasn't been updated since the wheezy days and remains with epiphany-browser and all it's many and varied dependencies are still at their 3.8 levels. Not Good. Okay, so I know Debian (on which Raspbian is based) has a bizarre update policy ai can live with that, sure it would be nice to move past Gtk3.14 but it's not a major problem. The fact that all the GNOME applications are at their 3.14 levels and Epiphany 3.8 is. You see each release's dependencies are interlinked so you now find that DevHelp 3.14's documentation is actually stored as HTML files and has had it's WebKit dependances marked at roughly the same as those of Epiphany 3.14. The problem? 3.8 is older than 3.14.

So all of a sudden devhelp is broken as are quite a few other packages.

Another problem is that the web moves fast and sites are updated to reflect the latest technologies. Unfortunately, that means we are no longer able to access GitHub's clone menu for example.

While I don't want the work done the be lost and don't really want to make work for someone else. WebKit really needs to be brought up to date and preferably the epiphany-browser shell as well.

Although I really don't have the knowledge to pull this off I would have given it a try but I've been unable to locate a Git anywhere.

Thanks,
Alexander Brown

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:35 pm
by fruitoftheloom
KWEB uses the WebKit Engine and the developer has voiced concerns, read the long thread:

viewtopic.php?t=40860

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:07 pm
by kusti8
It's sort of failed. Currently, just use Chromium or Kweb or Firefox.

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:08 pm
by Alexander Brown
Using another browser is fine for actually browsing it's more the fact that it's starting to break the likes of devhelp and the general security concerns. The Pi is becoming more of a every day workstation and browsing the web with the default browser people expect to 'just work' which regrettably it currently does not.

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:15 pm
by plugwash
I'm pretty sure the sources for the raspberry pi foundation's hacked up versions of epiphany and webkit are in their apt repo.

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:43 am
by Alexander Brown
not that I've ever found

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:35 pm
by Alexander Brown
ok so `apt-get source` does have a source package for epiphany-browser but for version 3.14, not the foundations 3.8 build.

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:51 pm
by fruitoftheloom
Alexander Brown wrote:ok so `apt-get source` does have a source package for epiphany-browser but for version 3.14, not the foundations 3.8 build.
Epiphany Gnome Web Web Browser was further developed by Collabora:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/web-browser-released

http://archive.raspberrypi.org/debian/p ... ny-browser

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:44 pm
by Alexander Brown
You will notice all those debs are for 3.8 which is the version installed in the Raspbian image and it the latest available through apt.

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:26 am
by gkreidl
In order to create an accelerated webkit engine for Wheezy they had to upgrade and patch a lot of system libraries. They were never really updated for Jessie and none of the well known bugs have been fixed. And some packages are really broken.
The work was done by people from collabora and paid for by the Foundation. Maybe the Foundation simply stopped paying them. Getting some kind of official statement from the Foundation would be nice.
The collabora git repository is really a mess.

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:41 am
by m4r35n357
kusti8 wrote:It's sort of failed. Currently, just use Chromium or Kweb or Firefox.
Chromium is not in the repos . . .

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:58 am
by fruitoftheloom
m4r35n357 wrote:
kusti8 wrote:It's sort of failed. Currently, just use Chromium or Kweb or Firefox.
Chromium is not in the repos . . .
Quite correct, Debian ditched Chromium as it is not multi-architecture since version around 28.....

If you have a Raspberry Pi 2B or 3B and installed Raspbian Jessie then follow this guide:

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=121195

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:45 am
by ab1jx
So this means I can't have devhelp? I don't care anything about Chromium. I'm just starting to mess around with Glade (again) and I thought devhelp would be handy but I do have it on an OpenBSD machine. I haven't tried on my amd64 Debian box.

I had to give up on an i386 Debian installation about 6 months ago because of broken packages I couldn't fix. Then I had wandered into testing, but this time the only thing I have in sources.list is:
http://mirrordirector.raspbian.org/raspbian/ jessie main contrib non-free rpi

I tried Arch and Centos, came back to Debian, determined to put on my blinders and follow their rules. And it still breaks.

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:05 am
by fruitoftheloom
ab1jx wrote:So this means I can't have devhelp? I don't care anything about Chromium. I'm just starting to mess around with Glade (again) and I thought devhelp would be handy but I do have it on an OpenBSD machine. I haven't tried on my amd64 Debian box.

I had to give up on an i386 Debian installation about 6 months ago because of broken packages I couldn't fix. Then I had wandered into testing, but this time the only thing I have in sources.list is:
http://mirrordirector.raspbian.org/raspbian/ jessie main contrib non-free rpi

I tried Arch and Centos, came back to Debian, determined to put on my blinders and follow their rules. And it still breaks.
DevHelp I suppose you mean ? https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Devhelp


Totally confused what x86-32 and x86-64 architecture has to do with the Raspberry Pi Operating Systems ?


Raspbian as we have concurred has a broken patched webkit, so you have various choices:

RPi 2B & 3B

Ubuntu flavors
https://ubuntu-pi-flavour-maker.org

Debian ARMHF
http://perens.com/blog/2016/04/07/insta ... f-raspbian

Fedora
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=151274


RPi all models

ArchlinuxArm
https://archlinuxarm.org/

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:16 pm
by Alexander Brown
ab1jx wrote:So this means I can't have devhelp? I don't care anything about Chromium. I'm just starting to mess around with Glade (again) and I thought devhelp would be handy but I do have it on an OpenBSD machine. I haven't tried on my amd64 Debian box.

I had to give up on an i386 Debian installation about 6 months ago because of broken packages I couldn't fix. Then I had wandered into testing, but this time the only thing I have in sources.list is:
http://mirrordirector.raspbian.org/raspbian/ jessie main contrib non-free rpi

I tried Arch and Centos, came back to Debian, determined to put on my blinders and follow their rules. And it still breaks.
Not sure what you're saying here but the try and answer:
You CANNOT use DevHelp on the current Raspbian Jessie

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:15 pm
by ab1jx
I don't expect to change hardware or operating systems, I'll just live without devhelp. Or use it on a machine where it works since I usually have 2 or 3 running anyway. I use my Pi mostly by VNC from an OpenBSD machine so far.

So generically webkit2gtk is mostly an HTML rendering engine, of which there are others, but they aren't interchangeable. So devhelp has an obsolete dependency, I'd say that's as much their fault as Raspberry Pi's. They could probably change it so building it with say Gecko, was an option. Or if webkit2gtk is based on GTK 2 have a GTK 3 version. Using Glade is just a whim on my part, Lazarus or FLTK are other possibilities. Oh well, so it's not something I broke, that's what I was worried about.

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:37 pm
by Alexander Brown
webkit2gtk is not obsolete! it's still actively developed (in many ways even more so than DevHelp) the problem is the version available in Raspbian is obsolete.

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:07 pm
by gkreidl
Alexander Brown wrote:webkit2gtk is not obsolete! it's still actively developed (in many ways even more so than DevHelp) the problem is the version available in Raspbian is obsolete.
It's not obsolete, it has just broken dependencies (the version in archive.raspberrypi.org). There is another version with the so-called 4.0 APi in the Raspbian archive which is not broken. If devhelp could be recompiled against it it might work.

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:13 pm
by Alexander Brown
In the world of web development a 3 year old rendering engine could easily be argued as obsolete. And having such an old package hanging around is breaking others (like DevHelp)

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:32 pm
by gkreidl
Alexander Brown wrote:In the world of web development a 3 year old rendering engine could easily be argued as obsolete. And having such an old package hanging around is breaking others (like DevHelp)
devhelp is compiled against the current webkit2gtk-3.0. version and would work with it if the dependencies of the webkit2 library (the matching javascript library) would work. It's one of the bad results of the webkit3/epiphany patches.

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:31 pm
by levelcrow
Have you guys seen this?

http://dabase.com/blog/Webkit_on_Rpi2/

What do you guys think of what's there? It seems like the OpenGL driver is getting more and more complete every day. Eric recently finished implementing NIR bypassing TGSI, something he mentioned doing at his FOSDEM presentation in January 2015. It looks like performance gains weren't as expected and there's some polishing to be done, but that's a major aspect of the OpenGL driver now set in its foundations.

The driver definitely isn't ready for backwards compatible ARMv6 friendly Raspbian - at least not the version included in Raspbian today. I tried out the driver using a CMA of 128mb on my Raspberry Pi 1B and there was definitely some slowdown in window dragging. But Eric Anholt seems like he knows what he's doing and his productivity is looking great! As a bystander, I'd guess that the OpenGL driver will eventually reach and surpass the current graphics stack and become adopted as the standard by Raspbian.

Maybe at that point, webkit2 will be updated with accelerated compositing? Does anyone know if the current packages are being built with desktop OpenGL enabled?

What do you think gkreidl? Could that be a significant gain with respect to Kweb performance?

Re: webkit2gtk getting old

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:28 pm
by gkreidl
As far as I can see (from the documentation) hardware accelerated compositing is not supported yet. And I'm not sure if it would really make a difference. The only thing that would be changing is support for WebGL.
But as long as the OpenGL driver keeps all other GPU support (omxplayer, gst-omx, other 3D software like Pi3D) from working I cannot and will not even test it. It would make all my RPis unusable. And I don't need any fancy 3D effects on my desktop and who is really using 3D software? But many games would profit from it.