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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:15 pm

Cromarty wrote:But I have a question, does the boot-loader code need to change? In other words is there any 'bitness' in the other code in /boot?
There is more on this in the other thread. Most of the stuff in /boot is GPU code but the foundation has a small bit of arm code that sets a few final things up before booting the kernel. That code is for 32-bit mode. The firmware also has to decide what state to start the core up in.

So to boot in 64-bit mode you need to use "arm_control=0x200" and "kernel_old=1". You then need code to handle the arm starting from address zero and continue the boot process. AIUI the guys who have done a 64-bit linux port are using a custom u-boot port.

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:56 pm

Perfect, I now feel totally deceived.

I bought the Pi 3 after I hit the limitation that my Owncloud Installation on my Pi 2 has a 2 GB file size limit due to the 32 bit OS.

The Pi 3 is totally advertised as having 64Bit. This is one of the mayor changes not even memory has grown.

NEVER EVER would I have thought that there is no 64Bit OS available for it....

Perfect!!! And Owncloud? Well see yourself:

https://github.com/owncloud/core/issues/7138
32bit will go away sooner or later. If this just works with a newer version of PHP: perfect, but to spend effort doesn't seem to make sense. If an implementation from community comes, we would be happy.
But who would use a Raspberry for hosting an Owncloud instance, I am sure the only one...

Sorry for being vocal, I am a bit tired... and totally flabbergasted by this :(

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:10 am

cyslider wrote:Perfect, I now feel totally deceived.

I bought the Pi 3 after I hit the limitation that my Owncloud Installation on my Pi 2 has a 2 GB file size limit due to the 32 bit OS.

The Pi 3 is totally advertised as having 64Bit. This is one of the mayor changes not even memory has grown.

NEVER EVER would I have thought that there is no 64Bit OS available for it....

Perfect!!! And Owncloud? Well see yourself:

https://github.com/owncloud/core/issues/7138
32bit will go away sooner or later. If this just works with a newer version of PHP: perfect, but to spend effort doesn't seem to make sense. If an implementation from community comes, we would be happy.
But who would use a Raspberry for hosting an Owncloud instance, I am sure the only one...

Sorry for being vocal, I am a bit tired... and totally flabbergasted by this :(
This is total crap. You do not need a 64bit OS to handle files > 2 GB. I've got lots of files > 8 GB on my RPi systems (large HD media files). They have been recorded using the RPi, can be played directly or serverd via my media server.
If an application cant' handle files sizes beyond 2 GB it's the problem of the application (developers), not of the OS.
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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:25 am

cyslider wrote:Perfect, I now feel totally deceived.

I bought the Pi 3 after I hit the limitation that my Owncloud Installation on my Pi 2 has a 2 GB file size limit due to the 32 bit OS.

The Pi 3 is totally advertised as having 64Bit. This is one of the mayor changes not even memory has grown.

NEVER EVER would I have thought that there is no 64Bit OS available for it....

Perfect!!! And Owncloud? Well see yourself:

https://github.com/owncloud/core/issues/7138
32bit will go away sooner or later. If this just works with a newer version of PHP: perfect, but to spend effort doesn't seem to make sense. If an implementation from community comes, we would be happy.
But who would use a Raspberry for hosting an Owncloud instance, I am sure the only one...

Sorry for being vocal, I am a bit tired... and totally flabbergasted by this :(
Fedora Aarm64: https://www.kraxel.org/blog/2016/06/new ... s-uploaded


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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:26 am

what filesystem are you using for these files
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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:24 am

This is total crap. You do not need a 64bit OS to handle files > 2 GB. I've got lots of files > 8 GB on my RPi systems (large HD media files).
I never said that the filesystem does not support files bigger than 2GB. I said Owncloud does not support it on 32bit system.
If the limitation comes from Apache, PHP or Owncloud I am not 100% sure. I will test with an updated PHP 7 to see if this maybe solves this. But the link I posted showed that at least the Owncloud community does not seem to care as they think 32bit systems are fading way anyway.
Fedora Aarm64: https://www.kraxel.org/blog/2016/06/new ... s-uploaded
Thanks, I'll take a look at that during the weekend.

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:30 am

cyslider wrote:
This is total crap. You do not need a 64bit OS to handle files > 2 GB. I've got lots of files > 8 GB on my RPi systems (large HD media files).
I never said that the filesystem does not support files bigger than 2GB. I said Owncloud does not support it on 32bit system.
If the limitation comes from Apache, PHP or Owncloud I am not 100% sure. I will test with an updated PHP 7 to see if this maybe solves this. But the link I posted showed that at least the Owncloud community does not seem to care as they think 32bit systems are fading way anyway.
Fedora Aarm64: https://www.kraxel.org/blog/2016/06/new ... s-uploaded
Thanks, I'll take a look at that during the weekend.
Why rant here if it is nothing to do with Raspberry Pi Foundation / Raspberry Pi Trading :?:
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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:06 pm

cyslider wrote:
This is total crap. You do not need a 64bit OS to handle files > 2 GB. I've got lots of files > 8 GB on my RPi systems (large HD media files).
I never said that the filesystem does not support files bigger than 2GB. I said Owncloud does not support it on 32bit system.
If the limitation comes from Apache, PHP or Owncloud I am not 100% sure. I will test with an updated PHP 7 to see if this maybe solves this. But the link I posted showed that at least the Owncloud community does not seem to care as they think 32bit systems are fading way anyway.
Fedora Aarm64: https://www.kraxel.org/blog/2016/06/new ... s-uploaded
Thanks, I'll take a look at that during the weekend.
Then the OwnCloud people are dumb. There is a lot of 32bit stuff in this world, just not on the desktop, it's not going to disappear overnight.

As for the lack of 64bit OS on the PI. This has been known since the Pi3 came out, and the RPF have no plans in the next few months to do one. There are third party OS's available if you really need it.
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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:35 pm

Why rant here if it is nothing to do with Raspberry Pi Foundation / Raspberry Pi Trading :?:
I rant here, because Owncloud is Free and the Raspberry is not.

I paid for it and totally expected there to be an 64bit OS for its 64bit hardware. Is this so unusual to expect??
There are third party OS's available if you really need it.
Would have preferred Raspbian, but if I can find another suitable, that would be fine by me. Maybe put it up into the download section if there is one that is provved to work stable.

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:08 pm

cyslider wrote: I paid for it and totally expected there to be an 64bit OS for its 64bit hardware. Is this so unusual to expect??
Yes. It proves that you didn't inform yourself about the RPi, the Foundation and its goals before buying the RPi.
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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:55 pm

If you're running it headless as a server, you can use aarch64 debian with this kernel: https://github.com/Electron752/linux .
I haven't tried it myself, so I can't vouch for its stability, but if I needed a 64bit system, that's what I'd use.

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:18 pm

cyslider wrote: I paid for it and totally expected there to be an 64bit OS for its 64bit hardware. Is this so unusual to expect??
Many years ago I bought a 64bit AMD CPU - Did the latest version of windows (XP) ever support it properly? No.

It's been said numerous times that the reason for moving to the newer architecture was that it gave improved 32bit performance. Nothing was ever promised about a 64bit OS.

I paid for a Pi3 also, and expected a feature to be available that was announced at launch as working, but it's still in beta and sort of works...

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:29 pm

Thank you ShiftPlusOne! This sounds really promising. To be honest, will be my first self compiled Kernel. Hope I manage. It's only my 4th Year after switching completely to Linux :oops: .

And yes, this PI's main task will be to run my future Nextcloud that's currently still running as Owncloud on my PI2 for family and friends. Headless.

Fedora seems to use the standard 32bit kernel. And Arch Linux also seems to wait for a 64bit Kernel from the Foundation: https://archlinuxarm.org/forum/viewtopi ... =10#p51030

An sorry for m initial rant. I just hate it to be hit by surprise :mrgreen: The PI2 Performance is already quite sufficient for my setup. The 64bit OS possibility was really the lone driver for my buy... And I still find it hard to blame myself for making this assumption ;)
But non the less, not my style to be rude, normally. You do amazing work with the PI's. Still hope for an official 64bit version in the future.

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:47 pm

cyslider wrote:Thank you ShiftPlusOne! This sounds really promising. To be honest, will be my first self compiled Kernel. Hope I manage. It's only my 4th Year after switching completely to Linux :oops: .

And yes, this PI's main task will be to run my future Nextcloud that's currently still running as Owncloud on my PI2 for family and friends. Headless.

Fedora seems to use the standard 32bit kernel. And Arch Linux also seems to wait for a 64bit Kernel from the Foundation: https://archlinuxarm.org/forum/viewtopi ... =10#p51030

An sorry for m initial rant. I just hate it to be hit by surprise :mrgreen: The PI2 Performance is already quite sufficient for my setup. The 64bit OS possibility was really the lone driver for my buy... And I still find it hard to blame myself for making this assumption ;)
But non the less, not my style to be rude, normally. You do amazing work with the PI's. Still hope for an official 64bit version in the future.
I'd search for alternaives to OC; its future may have 'interesting times'.

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:56 pm

asandford wrote:I'd search for alternaives to OC; its future may have 'interesting times'.
Have you read that article and my post? That is exactly why I am switching to Nextcloud :)

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:14 am

cyslider wrote: Fedora seems to use the standard 32bit kernel.
You what !!!

""If you want run your rpi3 in 64bit mode go for the arm64 image which has both 64bit kernel and userspace""

https://www.kraxel.org/blog/2016/06/new ... s-uploaded
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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:51 am

Thank you fruitoftheloom :)

Code: Select all

[[email protected] ~]# uname -a
Linux fedora-rpi2 4.6.2-4-main #1 SMP PREEMPT Fri Jun 10 13:47:17 CEST 2016 aarch64 aarch64 aarch64 GNU/Linux

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:42 am

plugwash wrote:AIUI the main performance advantages of 64-bit mode are the ability to work with 64-bit integers in a single step rather than two (an obvious advantage for any code that works with 64-bit integers) and more and larger registers (if you start trying to work with 64-bit numbers on 32-bit arm the supply of registers starts looking pretty low).

The disadvantage is that any variables of type size_t, long or pointer just doubled in size.That means more memory consumption and potentially more data flowing on the memory bus.
The code size is smaller though.

64 bit mode gives:

1) A new redesigned, streamlined, instruction set in tune with modern hardware. Some nice things like ldm/stm are missing but I think they are very slow and had issues with interrupts (replaced with stp/ldp which can take any random pair of registers). Also most of the conditional execution is gone (because modern branch prediction doesn't need it and the encoding space can be better used elsewhere. There are some nice new instructions like csel etc instead and immediate's are larger and much easier to use now (mostly).

2) 31 64-bit registers instead of 15 32-bit registers. And register 31 (PC) is now a very handy "zero" register when read.

3) 128-bit floating point. In C, and I presume C++ long double was 64-bit, the same as double, in aarch64 it is 128-bit. This software implementation is apparently only feasible on 64-bit hardware.

4) more address space - mostly useless on a 1GB Pi (but I have seen statements that its needed for 2GB, a bit surprising I would have expected a 4GB limit for 32-bit, but it is why the other cortex-a53 SBC's provide 64-bit OS's).

5) NEON is mandatory. There are no co-processors any more. Furthermore armv8 NEON supports full IEEE754 floating point, but only in 64-bit mode.

6) Obviously faster execution of 64 bit integer arithmetic. But NEON has always been able to do this. Large file handling (_FILE_OFFSET_BITS 64) is presumably slightly faster.

7) there is no longer direct access to the PC, for example to return from a function the "ret" insn must be used.
Last edited by jahboater on Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:53 pm

jahboater wrote: 4) more address space - mostly useless on a 1GB Pi (but I have seen statements that its needed for 2GB, a bit surprising I would have expected a 4GB limit for 32-bit, but it is why the other cortex-a53 SBC's provide 64-bit OS's).
I'm pretty sure that 32 bit ARM can support at least 3 GB of RAM because my Nexus 6 has a 32 bit CPU and 3 GB of RAM.

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Sun Aug 14, 2016 7:38 am

binaryhermit wrote:
jahboater wrote: 4) more address space - mostly useless on a 1GB Pi (but I have seen statements that its needed for 2GB, a bit surprising I would have expected a 4GB limit for 32-bit, but it is why the other cortex-a53 SBC's provide 64-bit OS's).
I'm pretty sure that 32 bit ARM can support at least 3 GB of RAM because my Nexus 6 has a 32 bit CPU and 3 GB of RAM.
It can, but the SoC can't. Well, actually it does, but it maps the 1GB across the 4GB address space in different ways depending on if you need cached or non-cached access to the space.

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:29 am

binaryhermit wrote:
jahboater wrote: 4) more address space - mostly useless on a 1GB Pi (but I have seen statements that its needed for 2GB, a bit surprising I would have expected a 4GB limit for 32-bit, but it is why the other cortex-a53 SBC's provide 64-bit OS's).
I'm pretty sure that 32 bit ARM can support at least 3 GB of RAM because my Nexus 6 has a 32 bit CPU and 3 GB of RAM.
For interest, I saw this on the Odroid-C2 forum discussion about 64-bits (not sure I understand it):-
While the feature may be hyped, 64bit was not added for marketing hype.

The C2 has 2GB of RAM. While 32bits can comfortably address this, its far more effective to expand the address space when used with a Linux kernel (which Android also uses). The kernel splits the memory address range between user and kernel space. While a 2GB/2GB split can also be comfortably held in 32bits, ARM uses memory mapped IO (MMIO). Every device on the board requires space in the physical address memory map. So the memory map in C2 exceeds 2GB: RAM and peripherals.

Furthermore, it is not uncommon for memory to be mirrored to different addresses. The additional mappings of the memory will have different cache characteristics associated with the address range. In this scenario, 2GB of RAM + MMIO + cache mappings + kernel mapping would exhaust the 32bit address space. As I noted in another thread, 2GB of RAM is the point where you want to go 64bit on ARM. While physical address extensions (PAE) are available to ARM, they expand the physical address, not the virtual address mapping capabilities.

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:33 pm

64 bit rpi3 SoC Broadcom BCM2837 will be supported in the next kernel release (4.8)

http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kern ... 00558.html

Bye

S.

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:09 pm

Hello,

This begs the question:
Can I run 64-bit programs or install packages like libnih-dbus1_1.0.3-4.3_arm64.deb from the Debian site?

Thank you,
Jim Julian

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:25 pm

jimjulian wrote:Hello,

This begs the question:
Can I run 64-bit programs or install packages like libnih-dbus1_1.0.3-4.3_arm64.deb from the Debian site?

Thank you,
Jim Julian
AFAIAA only if you compile a version of Arm64 Debian (Raspbian) which is "64bit kernel and userspace"

https://wiki.debian.org/Arm64Port

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Re: Raspbian Jessie (64bit) for RPi3?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:29 am

Looking at your current projects, what would give you the most speed increase, 64 bit, a wider GPU, USB 3, or ? All of my projects would benefit from USB 3 and Gigabit Ethernet.

A faster GPU would be next but I do not know what Raspbian software could make use of a different GPU. I suspect a better GPU would help video processing more than 64 bit. Has anyone compared that type of change?

64 bit addressing would help with some large data sets but the USB 2 disks are too slow to access data sets that large.

Where would 64 bit help?

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