User avatar
DavidS
Posts: 4334
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:39 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

What update ruined my RPi's?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:30 am

Running Raspbian on a model B RPi, everything was working well for quite a while. I did an update and suddenly got strange unexplained lock ups of verious tasks, then it got to the point that things were locking up regularly, any time the CPU usage passed 70% for more than a second, so I set the clock as low as Raspbian is usable (cpu at 500MHz, GPU at 200MHZ and RAM at 200MHz), the problems continued. So I rebooted with my RISC OS install on that RPi, the problems were still present, different symptoms.

Then I booted the Raspbian on one of my other RPi's figuring that the HW had just finally given up on me. Well to my surprise the second RPi that usualy runs RISC OS suffered the same fate as the first. So I reflashed the Raspbian card (after some time backing things up), booted it on a third RPi model B, set every thing up normal, and guess what, it worked no trouble UNTIL I DID THE UPDATE.

Now I have three RPi Model B's that are causing trouble regardless of OS or version, and these were my main 3 computers up till half an hour ago. So what was updated that has a negative effect on the old RPi model B HW. I am very interested, as I did not know it was possible for pure software to damage the RPi HW in such a way with out overclocking.
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

User avatar
kusti8
Posts: 3439
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: USA

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:38 am

What commands did you use to update it? The latest update works for me today. What's in your sources.list file?
There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary and those who don't.

User avatar
DavidS
Posts: 4334
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:39 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:56 am

kusti8 wrote:What commands did you use to update it? The latest update works for me today. What's in your sources.list file?
I can not answer that now. After the damage I hard erased the SD, with a full 24 pass DoD type overwrite.

As to the commands used:
sudo bash
synaptic &


Then in synaptic Refresh, followed by mark all updates, then apply. Same way I had always done.
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

User avatar
DavidS
Posts: 4334
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:39 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:04 am

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
I say there are 100 types of people:
:)
1 : those that understand binary, and opcodes.
10: Those that just understand binary.
11: Those that just understand Hexadecimal.
100: Everyone else.
:)
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

ame
Posts: 3172
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:21 am
Location: Korea

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:11 am

DavidS wrote:
kusti8 wrote:What commands did you use to update it? The latest update works for me today. What's in your sources.list file?
I can not answer that now. After the damage I hard erased the SD, with a full 24 pass DoD type overwrite.
That was dumb. Now you'll never know. You should have put the questionable SD card to one side and used a new one. They're dirt cheap after all.

User avatar
DavidS
Posts: 4334
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:39 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:14 am

ame wrote:
DavidS wrote:
kusti8 wrote:What commands did you use to update it? The latest update works for me today. What's in your sources.list file?
I can not answer that now. After the damage I hard erased the SD, with a full 24 pass DoD type overwrite.
That was dumb. Now you'll never know. You should have put the questionable SD card to one side and used a new one. They're dirt cheap after all.
And what do I use it on, now that all three of my RPi are damaged in some strange way?
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

Heater
Posts: 12971
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:43 am

I can't help thinking there is more to this story than just a software update.

Like the time a coworker of mine connected some hardware he had built to a PC's parallel port. It did not work. So he tried the next PC along the bench. Still did not work. So he tried the third one. Still did not work. He gave up and started analysing his circuit. The next day we found the parallel ports on all three machines had been blown, by his hardware!

What actually did you do?

We all like to think that software cannot damage hardware, although that is not always the case.

Are there some fuse bits hidden away on the Pi that we don't know about? I hear there is at least one used to detect over voltage setting and void the warranty.

This update had better not be the problem else there will be a million Pi being returned very soon!

I'm going to do an update now...

Heater
Posts: 12971
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:45 am

DavidS,
And what do I use it on, now that all three of my RPi are damaged in some strange way?
You can always read an SD card with Linux on your PC.

ame
Posts: 3172
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:21 am
Location: Korea

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:36 am

DavidS wrote:
ame wrote:
DavidS wrote: I can not answer that now. After the damage I hard erased the SD, with a full 24 pass DoD type overwrite.
That was dumb. Now you'll never know. You should have put the questionable SD card to one side and used a new one. They're dirt cheap after all.
And what do I use it on, now that all three of my RPi are damaged in some strange way?
Good point. You have nothing to use it on, but you also have no evidence to look at.

User avatar
MattHawkinsUK
Posts: 538
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:48 pm
Location: UK
Contact: Website

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:58 am

Forgot updating. Download the latest Raspbian image and re-image the card.
My Raspberry Pi blog and home of the BerryClip Add-on board : http://www.raspberrypi-spy.co.uk/
Follow me on Google+, Facebook, Pinterest and Twitter (@RPiSpy)

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23082
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:57 am

AFAIK, it's not actually possible to bork a Pi like this.

There's no flash memory to corrupt, nothing writable on the device (apart from some security bits and I cannot see it being them), nothing to actually change on the HW.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
"My grief counseller just died, luckily, he was so good, I didn't care."

User avatar
DavidS
Posts: 4334
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:39 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:44 pm

jamesh wrote:AFAIK, it's not actually possible to bork a Pi like this.

There's no flash memory to corrupt, nothing writable on the device (apart from some security bits and I cannot see it being them), nothing to actually change on the HW.
Hmm, and I would think you would know. Though I know the results I got. And two of those RPi never had any external HW hooked to them.

Is there a possibility of something in the layout of the ARM, or VideoCore that if banged to quickly could burn out? I remember being able to fry some of the Intel CPU's by repeated execution of certain opcodes, some network of transistors overheats and ruins the CPU, I also remember this with some of the nVidea accelerators, these are the kind of errors that would lead to the type of behavior that I am getting from these RPi, hence the question. They are also the kind of error that would likely go undetected for many years, unless someone accidentally used a tight with to many of the wrong instruction.

I hope it is a fluke in my set up, using something that got updated that most do not. If it is something common, there are going to be a lot of first gen RPi coming back (I am assuming there is enough difference in the SoC of the newer B+ and RPi 2).
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

User avatar
DavidS
Posts: 4334
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:39 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:50 pm

Heater wrote:I can't help thinking there is more to this story than just a software update.

Like the time a coworker of mine connected some hardware he had built to a PC's parallel port. It did not work. So he tried the next PC along the bench. Still did not work. So he tried the third one. Still did not work. He gave up and started analysing his circuit. The next day we found the parallel ports on all three machines had been blown, by his hardware!

What actually did you do?

We all like to think that software cannot damage hardware, although that is not always the case.

Are there some fuse bits hidden away on the Pi that we don't know about? I hear there is at least one used to detect over voltage setting and void the warranty.

This update had better not be the problem else there will be a million Pi being returned very soon!

I'm going to do an update now...
On the first RPi I thought it could have been related to the 3D printer HW. Though the other two being nothing more than desktop computers for me, with nothing the same hooked to them (only differing sets of USB devices, Ethernet, and different monitors), that was eliminated.

I hope that what ever did it is a component that I had on my Raspbian that got updated, though most do not have on there Raspbian. If it is a common component, there are going to be a lot of problem RPi out there soon. I am going to assume that it will likely only effect the old style model B and A, as the newer models use a different SoC.
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

Heater
Posts: 12971
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:15 pm

davidsauders,
...being able to fry some of the Intel CPU's by repeated execution of certain opcodes...
You are going to have to provide some evidence to back that statement up. As it stands I don't buy it.

Intel processors are in use in huge quantities for decades. A lot of people have been doing very weird things with them. I would imagine if such a thing were possible we would have heard about it. It would be main stream news!

Of course if it is something you managed to one time we don't have enough evidence to go on.

All in all I suspect its a vanishingly small possibility that there will be millions of Pi killed by a software update.

As my old boss used to say, looking at me, when the whole system fell down "What did you do last?"

User avatar
DavidS
Posts: 4334
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:39 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:34 pm

Heater wrote:davidsauders,
...being able to fry some of the Intel CPU's by repeated execution of certain opcodes...
You are going to have to provide some evidence to back that statement up. As it stands I don't buy it.

Intel processors are in use in huge quantities for decades. A lot of people have been doing very weird things with them. I would imagine if such a thing were possible we would have heard about it. It would be main stream news!

Of course if it is something you managed to one time we don't have enough evidence to go on.

All in all I suspect its a vanishingly small possibility that there will be millions of Pi killed by a software update.

As my old boss used to say, looking at me, when the whole system fell down "What did you do last?"
On the intel CPU's, look at the news stories from the early 1990's. It was one of those things that was discovered by those doing consecutive runs of each opcode, and very rare (never used in real world applications, though I do remembering repeating it when I read about it [intentionally destroying a 486DX2]).

I doubt very much that many RPi will be effected as well. Each RPi the last thing done was different. I have reviewed what I did. The only things in common are running and updating Raspbian. The last one I was using a diferent SD card (as mentioned in the first post), with a fresh flash of the Raspbian image, and did nothing other than set it up and get the updates.
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

User avatar
DougieLawson
Posts: 35557
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:19 pm
Location: Basingstoke, UK
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:42 pm

If you think about it, you're claiming a 3 in 5,000,000 chance that something bad happened (due to an update) and that it's only your three RPis that have been affected.

Your claim is simply ludicrous. If it was a software/firmware fault the number of affected users would be in the tens or hundreds of thousands.

It's much more plausible that you've had a lightning strike or power surge or something else environmental and localised.
Note: Having anything humorous in your signature is completely banned on this forum. Wear a tin-foil hat and you'll get a ban.

Any DMs sent on Twitter will be answered next month.

This is a doctor free zone.

User avatar
DavidS
Posts: 4334
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:39 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:18 pm

DougieLawson wrote:If you think about it, you're claiming a 3 in 5,000,000 chance that something bad happened (due to an update) and that it's only your three RPis that have been affected.

Your claim is simply ludicrous. If it was a software/firmware fault the number of affected users would be in the tens or hundreds of thousands.

It's much more plausible that you've had a lightning strike or power surge or something else environmental and localised.
Anything is possible. Each RPi is on a separate storage battery hooked to a diferent set of solar panels, though any thing is possible.

And it is possible it was something I was running that got updated that 99% of the RPi users do not run (there were a few things). I do not know.

though as will be explained in my next post it really does not matter.
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

User avatar
DavidS
Posts: 4334
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:39 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:25 pm

I am still confused by what happened, though apparently it was not permanent. Still enough to keep me from attempting Raspbian ever again.

Today I decided to give one more try to see if my RPi's are of any use. I put RISC OS SD cards in each (configured to boot from a USB drive in all cases), and USB Thumb drives with the RISC OS disk image contents.

The result is that it appears that they are all three working correctly again. I do not know what went wrong to begin with, or why over multiple attempts there were symptoms of some kind of HW error, though it appears to have went away. Good thing, these things cost $35 each, way to much to just replace.

I will just not ever run Raspbian again, and will be cautious of any Linux Distro on the RPi (Puppy is still one that I will use).

So I am happy I have my RPi's back, now I just need to get a lot of software ported to RISC OS so that I can stay away from Linux.
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

gkreidl
Posts: 5997
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:07 pm
Location: Germany

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:45 pm

This is the way, how conspiracy theories are are borne.
"Linux kills processors"

Poppycock & Balderdash, as Dougie would say.
Minimal Kiosk Browser (kweb)
Slim, fast webkit browser with support for audio+video+playlists+youtube+pdf+download
Optional fullscreen kiosk mode and command interface for embedded applications
Includes omxplayerGUI, an X front end for omxplayer

toxibunny
Posts: 1382
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:21 pm

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:00 pm

Maybe it was a virus running on the microprocessors inside the SD cards. One that only shows up on a certain date&time...
note: I may or may not know what I'm talking about...

User avatar
DavidS
Posts: 4334
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:39 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:31 pm

gkreidl wrote:This is the way, how conspiracy theories are are borne.
"Linux kills processors"

Poppycock & Balderdash, as Dougie would say.
I doubt that. So there was a bug somewhere, that affected the HW temporarily. These things happen, so be it.

I will just avoid Raspbian like I have always avoided M$-Win32.
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

User avatar
DavidS
Posts: 4334
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:39 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:31 pm

toxibunny wrote:Maybe it was a virus running on the microprocessors inside the SD cards. One that only shows up on a certain date&time...
Probability is against that, though one never knows.
RPi = The best ARM based RISC OS computer around
More than 95% of posts made from RISC OS on RPi 1B/1B+ computers. Most of the rest from RISC OS on RPi 2B/3B/3B+ computers

User avatar
DougieLawson
Posts: 35557
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:19 pm
Location: Basingstoke, UK
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:09 pm

So what do you do? Do you run Pidora/Fedora or Arch or RiscOS until your SDCards go west again?

Or do you wrap your Raspberry Pis in cling film then in tin-foil while you're wearing a tin-foil hat and barking at the full moon, because that's the way your story reads. The probability doesn't add up. You're more likely to be kicked to death by a donkey during a lightning storm.
Note: Having anything humorous in your signature is completely banned on this forum. Wear a tin-foil hat and you'll get a ban.

Any DMs sent on Twitter will be answered next month.

This is a doctor free zone.

Heater
Posts: 12971
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:29 pm

DavidS,
...enough to keep me from attempting Raspbian ever again.
Why for goodness sake? This make no sense.

ame
Posts: 3172
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:21 am
Location: Korea

Re: What update ruined my RPi's?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:42 pm

So, basically, no update ruined your Pi.

Return to “Raspbian”