bromham
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:09 pm

Disappearing thread

Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:53 pm

I posted a message here last week entitled "Booting Pi 400 from a tiny USB stick". A couple of days after posting, the entire thread disappeared.

The direct link to the thread is viewtopic.php?f=66&t=297895&e=1 but clickiing it leads to a message that says "You are not authorised to read this forum".

I don't know whether the thread has disappeared by an accident of some sort or because it's been deleted by an administrator. As far as I know, the content was innocuous.

Can anyone shed any light on what's happened?

ejolson
Posts: 6296
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Disappearing thread

Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:06 pm

I see it in the Google cache. The thread went like this:
bromham wrote: I'd like to boot my Pi 400 from one of the very small USB 3 sticks that are now available but I'm having difficulty finding one with adequate performance.

I've tried a SanDisk 32 GB Ultra Fit stick and an Integral Fusion 32 GB stick but I'm not happy with either and wondered if anyone can recommend a tiny USB 3 stick with performance that at least matches an SD card.

I understand that the important measure for use as filestore is IO operations per second (IOPS) but few, if any, manufacturers seem to publish this figure.

As a "real world" test, I cloned a SanDisk Extreme A1 class 32 GB SD card to each USB stick in turn using the SD Card Copier program on a Pi 400 with the stick in a USB 3 socket. The SanDisk took 42 minutes; the Integral took 5 hours!

The Pi 400 booted successfully from the cloned SandDisk stick and seemed responsive enough but running the Pi Diagnostics test on it reported a "fail" with random read IOPS of 1187 to 1216 (target 1500) and random write IOPS of 265 - 384 (target 500).

In comparison, Pi Diagnostics on the A1 class SanDisk SD card reported random read IOPS of 2682 and random write IOPS of 539.

The Pi 400 booted very slowly from the Integral stick and was barely usable. The Pi Diagnostics test reported random read IOPS of 735 - 1598 (very variable) and random write IOPS of 11 to 182 (appalling!).

So clearly the Integral stick is useless and the SanDisk stick is usable but has worse performance than an SD card.

Can anyone recommend a USB 3 device better than the SanDisk and, ideally, at least as good as an SD card?
with the replies
jahboater wrote: The SD cards with decent performance you are using are A1 class
https://www.sdcard.org/developers/overv ... index.html
which specifies minimum 4K read IOPS.

I don't think you get such a specification for USB sticks.
At least a USB 3 stick should have faster I/O.
followed by
bromham wrote: I think A2 class is 4K IOPS. But I'd be happy with a USB 3 stick that meets the A1 class definition of 1500 read IOPS.
I don't see anything wrong with the posts, so my guess is that either someone slipped with their mouse and deleted it by accident or the server suffered a crash and since the posts were all made in the short time window between 4:34 and 4:54pm on January 8, they were not part of the restore checkpoint. It would be interesting to know what happened.

cleverca22
Posts: 2345
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: Disappearing thread

Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:52 pm

ejolson wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:06 pm
I don't see anything wrong with the posts, so my guess is that either someone slipped with their mouse and deleted it by accident or the server suffered a crash and since the posts were all made in the short time window between 4:34 and 4:54pm on January 8, they were not part of the restore checkpoint. It would be interesting to know what happened.
to me, the "You are not authorised to read this forum" implies it was moved to a moderator only section of the forum, so they could review it further and maybe undo it later, a sort of soft-delete
i'm guessing the high number of links to amazon products from a fresh user felt like spam

bromham
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:09 pm

Re: Disappearing thread

Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:43 pm

cleverca22 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:52 pm
i'm guessing the high number of links to amazon products from a fresh user felt like spam
That's possible, thanks. I'm not exactly a new user: although I haven't posted much, I joined the forum more than two years ago.

The links were intended to clarify the particular USB sticks I'd tried, not to advertise them, but I can see how it may have looked. Now that another user has reposted the thread, perhaps it will vanish again!

Before it does, I'm still interested if anyone knows of any USB sticks that perform as well as an SD card when a Pi is booted from one.

ejolson
Posts: 6296
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Disappearing thread

Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:09 am

bromham wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:43 pm
cleverca22 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:52 pm
i'm guessing the high number of links to amazon products from a fresh user felt like spam
That's possible, thanks. I'm not exactly a new user: although I haven't posted much, I joined the forum more than two years ago.

The links were intended to clarify the particular USB sticks I'd tried, not to advertise them, but I can see how it may have looked. Now that another user has reposted the thread, perhaps it will vanish again!

Before it does, I'm still interested if anyone knows of any USB sticks that perform as well as an SD card when a Pi is booted from one.
Would a short m.2 SSD behind a USB 3 bridge be too big to consider? I wonder what the smallest SSD setup would be.

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dickon
Posts: 1874
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:54 pm
Location: Home, just outside Reading

Re: Disappearing thread

Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:06 am

Certain mods around have got very heavy-fingered with their delete buttons lately. I have much reduced my time here as a result -- I cannot see the point in writing posts which address the OP's problem only to have them removed on spurious grounds.
As it is apparently board policy to disallow any criticism of anything, as it appears to criticise something is to criticise all the users of that something, I will no longer be commenting in threads which are not directly relevant to my uses of the Pi.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Disappearing thread

Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:44 am

dickon wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:06 am
Certain mods around have got very heavy-fingered with their delete buttons lately. I have much reduced my time here as a result -- I cannot see the point in writing posts which address the OP's problem only to have them removed on spurious grounds.
Really? I don't remember ever removing one of your posts.

We are having to be a bit more careful with keeping topics on track due to a huge increase in the number of users, hundreds more per week. And we have been utterly inundated with spam as well, so less time is available for 'moderating' real posts, so its is quite possible stuff has been removed after a quick scan, that probably should not have been. That is the price paid for trying to keep the forum useful and polite.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

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dickon
Posts: 1874
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:54 pm
Location: Home, just outside Reading

Re: Disappearing thread

Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:58 am

jamesh wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:44 am
dickon wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:06 am
Certain mods around have got very heavy-fingered with their delete buttons lately. I have much reduced my time here as a result -- I cannot see the point in writing posts which address the OP's problem only to have them removed on spurious grounds.
Really? I don't remember ever removing one of your posts.
It wasn't you :-)

Please see the shredded remnants of viewtopic.php?f=32&t=295993 -- I had posted an accurate, correct response to the OP's problem which got deleted (along with a followup) because I had the temerity to criticise the batshit insane design decisions of the language's authors because, and I quote: 'if you state that a language is ridiculous, then you are simply insulting ALL users of that language'.

If I cannot criticise something like that, then I'm simply not going to waste my time around here.
As it is apparently board policy to disallow any criticism of anything, as it appears to criticise something is to criticise all the users of that something, I will no longer be commenting in threads which are not directly relevant to my uses of the Pi.

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PeterO
Posts: 6038
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:14 pm

Re: Disappearing thread

Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:05 am

dickon wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:58 am
If I cannot criticise something like that, then I'm simply not going to waste my time around here.
Why do you think anyone cares about how you spend your time ?

PeterO
Discoverer of the PI2 XENON DEATH FLASH!
Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

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dickon
Posts: 1874
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:54 pm
Location: Home, just outside Reading

Re: Disappearing thread

Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:06 am

PeterO wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:05 am
Why do you think anyone cares about how you spend your time ?
I don't.
As it is apparently board policy to disallow any criticism of anything, as it appears to criticise something is to criticise all the users of that something, I will no longer be commenting in threads which are not directly relevant to my uses of the Pi.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 27708
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Disappearing thread

Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:14 pm

I would argue that this is a forum for helping people, not criticism, which usually helps no-one, although clearly that might turn up from time to time.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

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dickon
Posts: 1874
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:54 pm
Location: Home, just outside Reading

Re: Disappearing thread

Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:22 pm

When the criticism was germane to OP's problem -- in this particular case, a mixing of spaces and tabs in a ridiculously whitespace-sensitive language -- it seemed perfectly reasonable to me, and clearly several other regulars.
As it is apparently board policy to disallow any criticism of anything, as it appears to criticise something is to criticise all the users of that something, I will no longer be commenting in threads which are not directly relevant to my uses of the Pi.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 27708
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Disappearing thread

Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:28 pm

Whatever.

Anyway, the missing thread has been found. It was moved from General in to a Pi400 forum, however, the wrong Pi400 forum - we have a set of hidden ones for beta testers to use, and it was moved there by mistake as they have very similar names.

I've moved it to the correct forum.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.

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