hippy
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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:03 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:33 pm
Anyone can change the settings in the driver itself. I'm don't have time to incorporate some sort of device tree settings stuff, so that will have to do until someone else steeps up to the plate.
Sounds good enough to me. Where to change things has been identified, the situation has been improved from what it was, and if someone wants more than that they can do it themselves or contract someone to do that for them.

lost
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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:14 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:33 pm
Anyone can change the settings in the driver itself. I'm don't have time to incorporate some sort of device tree settings stuff, so that will have to do until someone else steeps up to the plate.
That'll will always be better than current log-spam. But to tune this, a sysfs entry is more convenient for this kind of stuff. After, that's just a post startup script ready to use by users willing to tune this time.

Some says you wasted your time. I don't think so & thanks for this.

lost
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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:23 pm

hippy wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:03 pm
if someone wants more than that they can do it themselves or contract someone to do that for them.
Well, the feature was not a heavy demand I presume & status could already be checked manually in case of doubts (on restart with no clues in logs for instance), with a sticky bit that survive restart (& a true power problem = no time to log! => IMO, a log at startup & error clear was more than enough).

That's always the problem when modifications impact logs, especially when not changing distro version: You setup your system once, with partitions/tmpfs dimensioning & you don't expect this kind of added logs after just an update.

This is also why it's not easy to modify commands parameters. Even if it initial option set was not optimal, you think about modifications twice: Maybe hundred of thousands scripts will not work anymore with users screaming.

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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:23 pm

lost wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:23 pm
hippy wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:03 pm
if someone wants more than that they can do it themselves or contract someone to do that for them.
Well, the feature was not a heavy demand I presume & status could already be checked manually in case of doubts (on restart with no clues in logs for instance), with a sticky bit that survive restart (& a true power problem = no time to log! => IMO, a log at startup & error clear was more than enough).

That's always the problem when modifications impact logs, especially when not changing distro version: You setup your system once, with partitions/tmpfs dimensioning & you don't expect this kind of added logs after just an update.

This is also why it's not easy to modify commands parameters. Even if it initial option set was not optimal, you think about modifications twice: Maybe hundred of thousands scripts will not work anymore with users screaming.
People still seem to be missing the main point.

If this message appears you DO have a problem with your power supply. You may not have seen the corruption that can result, but the chances of it turning up are pretty high. This IS a critical error. You SHOULD be fixing the underlying problem, not just hiding the symptom.
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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:51 am

I just spent some time chasing a under-voltage warning which started appearing (only during boot) a few days ago. My trusted Fluke meter measured 4.9V and showed nothing to suggest that my power supply was going bad, but an oscilloscope showed a single 10 millisecond glitch down to 4.6V a few seconds after power-on.

I doubt that's enough to cause data loss, but the fact that it only recently started happening makes me think I my power supply might be beginning to fail (even though it's from a reputable electronics supplier, has a thick cable, and has been used well within its rated capacity).

An official Raspberry Pi power supply measured 5.2V and did not generate any under-voltage warnings. However the amplitude of the voltage glitches during boot was similar to the other supply. Nothing I could do after boot would induce comparable voltage swings. Seem to imply that the peak current during boot is fairly high.

(tests made on a Pi-2 running latest Raspbian with ethernet connection only)

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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:04 pm

TimG wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:51 am
...
Nothing I could do after boot would induce comparable voltage swings. Seem to imply that the peak current during boot is fairly high.
...
Quite so. When it was originally implemented on the B+ I observed a small number of warning events early in the boot sequence when running from a powerbank that had quite happily powered its predecessor and continued to do so with the B+, post boot, w/o any further warnings, IIRC. However, said Pi's usually only had minimal USB device "loading" (keyboard, mouse, USB stick ...), often with the USB current, for the B+, still limited to 600mA. To some extent, given my measurements of PSU and powerbank loading characteristics, sometimes it probably was, in part, the powerbank itself "settling down". Unfortunately I no longer have access to an oscilloscope so cannot confirm/deny such. :(
Trev.
Still running Raspbian Jessie on some older Pi's (an A, B1, B2, B+, P2B, 3xP0, P0W) but Stretch on my P3B+, P3B, B+, A+ and a B2. See: https://www.cpmspectrepi.uk/raspberry_pi/raspiidx.htm

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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:39 pm

TimG wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:51 am
Seem to imply that the peak current during boot is fairly high.
Though looking at current drawn, as others have measured it, it doesn't seem that high -
power-up.png
http://www.noveldevices.co.uk/rp-images/power-up.png
power-up.png (25.13 KiB) Viewed 1739 times
For the 3B there's an early surge of 300mA there and a couple later of 600mA, and that could be higher with USB devices attached.

I am not sure what explains why my 5V @ 5A supply shows low-voltage at the start of the boot screen on a 3B but is absolutely fine after that. I had put that down to high in-rush current but can only assume it is the supply current limiting when it first starts to provide power.

Unfortunately I don't have the equipment to analyse that further. It however appears that I need a better power supply to prevent damaging my Pi and I am risking corrupting my SD card.

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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:02 pm

During startup the GPU is on full throttle (doing the GPU test, expanding four pixels to fill the full screen), while power management isn't running yet, that explains the (two) current peaks.
The older PI's would have very similar current peaks, perhaps they were too short for your equipment to sense.

But on any PI you would get similar GPU loads while doing very GPU intense tasks.

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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Wed May 16, 2018 11:44 am

jamesh wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:30 am
Please fix the underlying problem - you are putting tape over the engine warning light. It WILL come back to haunt you. You are also disabling a whole load of important kernel messages, critical ones.

Get a better power supply and cables.
Hello James,

I know it´s a while ago, but since I solved my problem, I did not have a look at this forum for a long time.

I want to point out, that I completely agree with you, that a save PSU is necessary, but keep in mind, that there are different use cases for the system. In my particular case, this critical message is displayed to a user, which does not understand it and is by no way able to fix it. I collect critical issues in the background and display them at an administration screen via network. There this such message would be completely right, because they would be presented in the administration and diagnostics backend. But on the main screen, I can't see them remote and the user does not understand them.

The worst case, that the system crashes is bad, but to print text over a graphical user interface, does not make it any better or saver in my case. As mentioned before, the raspberry pis are used here in an entertainment environment.

So what I would like to have, if I had a chance to decide would be, that I could redirect all this kernel messages to a file or pipe, where I could record them on demand and integrate them into my diagnostics observer. Maybe this is already possible with raspbian or debian, but I did not yet find out how to achieve that. In the meanwhile, I am fine with turning this messages off and keep the lightning, which looks cool, on the display.

So if you would have any recommendations, I would be happy to here them, otherwise, thanks for your support and response.

Kind regards,
Alex

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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Wed May 16, 2018 12:01 pm

lexos wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:44 am
jamesh wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:30 am
Please fix the underlying problem - you are putting tape over the engine warning light. It WILL come back to haunt you. You are also disabling a whole load of important kernel messages, critical ones.

Get a better power supply and cables.
Hello James,

I know it´s a while ago, but since I solved my problem, I did not have a look at this forum for a long time.

I want to point out, that I completely agree with you, that a save PSU is necessary, but keep in mind, that there are different use cases for the system. In my particular case, this critical message is displayed to a user, which does not understand it and is by no way able to fix it. I collect critical issues in the background and display them at an administration screen via network. There this such message would be completely right, because they would be presented in the administration and diagnostics backend. But on the main screen, I can't see them remote and the user does not understand them.

The worst case, that the system crashes is bad, but to print text over a graphical user interface, does not make it any better or saver in my case. As mentioned before, the raspberry pis are used here in an entertainment environment.

So what I would like to have, if I had a chance to decide would be, that I could redirect all this kernel messages to a file or pipe, where I could record them on demand and integrate them into my diagnostics observer. Maybe this is already possible with raspbian or debian, but I did not yet find out how to achieve that. In the meanwhile, I am fine with turning this messages off and keep the lightning, which looks cool, on the display.

So if you would have any recommendations, I would be happy to here them, otherwise, thanks for your support and response.

Kind regards,
Alex
That's really a kernel logging question. All we do is put a critical message in the kernel log. What the kernel does with it after that is down to the kernel.

I disagree with your premise that a user is unable to do anything about this message. It's quite clear - sort out the power supply and the message will go away. Users do that all the time.
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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Wed May 16, 2018 2:00 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:01 pm
I disagree with your premise that a user is unable to do anything about this message. It's quite clear - sort out the power supply and the message will go away. Users do that all the time.
I believe Alex is discussing use in a situation where the "user" is simply an observer, a member of the public, a user of the equipment rather than the user of a Pi.

By way of analogy it is like using an ATM to withdraw money and having the screen fill with low voltage and other messages. The person using the ATM is only inconvenienced, annoyed and potentially confused by that, can't do anything about the situation nor resolve it, can only report the issue.

If we see a BSOD on an ATM, self-service checkout, information display as users of that equipment there's nothing we can do about that.

The supplier does need to know about a problem, should resolve it, but the person using what is supplied doesn't need to know and cannot do anything about it when they do.

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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Wed May 16, 2018 3:21 pm

hippy wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 2:00 pm
jamesh wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:01 pm
I disagree with your premise that a user is unable to do anything about this message. It's quite clear - sort out the power supply and the message will go away. Users do that all the time.
I believe Alex is discussing use in a situation where the "user" is simply an observer, a member of the public, a user of the equipment rather than the user of a Pi.

By way of analogy it is like using an ATM to withdraw money and having the screen fill with low voltage and other messages. The person using the ATM is only inconvenienced, annoyed and potentially confused by that, can't do anything about the situation nor resolve it, can only report the issue.

If we see a BSOD on an ATM, self-service checkout, information display as users of that equipment there's nothing we can do about that.

The supplier does need to know about a problem, should resolve it, but the person using what is supplied doesn't need to know and cannot do anything about it when they do.
I would hope that customer facing devices would never ever have this happen anyway. I would also expect that customer facing devices will be likely to have some sort of custom software on them, and that customisation could include modification to this functionality if it really is a problem (for example, simply dropping the kernel logging level used for the message would remove it from display).
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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Wed May 16, 2018 4:04 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:21 pm
I would hope that customer facing devices would never ever have this happen anyway. I would also expect that customer facing devices will be likely to have some sort of custom software on them, and that customisation could include modification to this functionality if it really is a problem (for example, simply dropping the kernel logging level used for the message would remove it from display).
Well, yes, that's what this entire thread is about: how to drop those messages, remove them from the display.

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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Wed May 16, 2018 4:13 pm

hippy wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:04 pm
jamesh wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:21 pm
I would hope that customer facing devices would never ever have this happen anyway. I would also expect that customer facing devices will be likely to have some sort of custom software on them, and that customisation could include modification to this functionality if it really is a problem (for example, simply dropping the kernel logging level used for the message would remove it from display).
Well, yes, that's what this entire thread is about: how to drop those messages, remove them from the display.
And the answer is the same as it ever was, don't kill the messenger, but solve the problem.
solve the problem and the messages will disappear automatically.
If an ATM starts to display error messages, no sensible user would continue using it.

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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Wed May 16, 2018 9:59 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:21 pm
I would hope that customer facing devices would never ever have this happen anyway. I would also expect that customer facing devices will be likely to have some sort of custom software on them, and that customisation could include modification to this functionality if it really is a problem (for example, simply dropping the kernel logging level used for the message would remove it from display).
Nice idea, sadly not a reality.

We've all seen Windows stop conditions (aka BSOD or GSOD) happen to public screens - often with a flight info screen at an airport. I've even seen aircraft in-flight entertainment systems reboot with a small penguin logo and lots of kernel messages when it happens. It's mostly a big laugh and a subject for that gloating photo on Twitter - because that stuff happens & you can't avoid it.

The bigger problem we've seen here in the UK was when a customer facing Spanish-owned bank screwed up their migration off an ancient old working IBM mainframe system on to a large Linux/Unix/Windows server. When that stops a Bank dead in its tracks it becomes an enormous problem. As soon as payroll payments, direct debits and standing orders get delayed that failing bank is going to have lots of ruffled customers baying for blood. They're also going to have The Bank of England/Financial Conduct Authority on their case.

Ancient old systems that should have been retired years ago are all over the place. Lots of ATMs are still running WINXP or WIN7 - while they can read your chip'n'pin card and dish out the odd tenner nobody cares. Those Self-scan tills in supermarkets are running WIN7 - again if it scans a four pack of baked beans, demands £2.00 from you, then prints a receipt and gives you your clubcard/nectar points nobody cares. Hospitals are still running unpatched WIN7 (as we saw with WannaCry killing X-ray machines). You can't fix everything - the process of fixing one small bug could introduce a whole raft of unknown new bugs in the process.

The choice between corrective maintenance (fix a bug when you find it), preventative maintenance (fix all the known bugs to a chosen date) or introducing a new release (which could install a whole collection of old & new bugs unless you also include a preventative maintenance package) is interesting, each has a cost vs risk vs reward - making those choices is part of what I get paid for as my day job.
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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Thu May 17, 2018 12:27 am

mahjongg wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:13 pm
solve the problem and the messages will disappear automatically.
And we're going in circles again.

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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Thu May 17, 2018 12:28 am

hippy wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:27 am
mahjongg wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:13 pm
solve the problem and the messages will disappear automatically.
And we're going in circles again.
It is kind of hard for a cyclic argument like this to end when two of the main players on the opposing side are mods.

You can't just turn them off like you can with normal posters.
"L'enfer, c'est les autres"

If a post offends you, just put that poster on your foes list, and be done with it (and with them).

To do otherwise, risks being banned.

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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Thu May 17, 2018 5:19 am

jamesh wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:01 pm
That's really a kernel logging question. All we do is put a critical message in the kernel log. What the kernel does with it after that is down to the kernel.
Some guys also access pointers to unallocated zones & ask kernel guys to fix this because the message they see is from the kernel. 2 decades ago (was working on vxWorks at the time), a guy from the applicative side asked me to increase the stack side because he could not declare some (very) big arrays locally inside functions: "I didn't learned malloc exists, kernel team, please fix this!" On a embedded system!

The way the kernel works is supposed to be known. If you use it's services in a way that cause problems, just fix your stuff, don't ask others to change their side.

Here, users report about systems that were running since years without any problem until they got this heavy logging. So, again, choice could have for instance been made to make first message log-levelled high and further ones low.

+ again, if you have a true power problem, your system will be immediately down with no time to log. This is exactly why this status is made sticky in the hardware design: To make early startup check, after console is availlable but before other power hungry hardware is setup/enabled (GPU...), to give clues to users if their system sometimes experience such sudden death.

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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Thu May 17, 2018 9:14 am

n67 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:28 am
hippy wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:27 am
mahjongg wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:13 pm
solve the problem and the messages will disappear automatically.
And we're going in circles again.
It is kind of hard for a cyclic argument like this to end when two of the main players on the opposing side are mods.

You can't just turn them off like you can with normal posters.
?? I think all the mods are in agreement? This logging is pointing out a specific and possibly critical issue. Fix the problem, not the warning.

We've already reduce the amount of logging being generated to a maximum of three messages every 5 minutes. If you system is STILL filling the log up with warnings, then its oscillating between good and bad power states. If you are happy for that situation to continue (you shouldn't be - it could lead to early SD card failure for example), then you are perfectly entitled to modify the logging code to turn it off - all the source is available.

But don't expect us to provide a facility to turn off a critical warning.

Would you turn off a smoke detector that was sounding, rather than leave the building?
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n67
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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Thu May 17, 2018 9:19 am

Would you turn off a smoke detector that was sounding, rather than leave the building?
Actually, yes.

Every time I've had a smoke alarm sound, it's because of something I did in the kitchen (cooking something). Just turn it off and continue making dinner.

And the analogy is apt. 99.99 (insert as many 9s here as you like) percent of the time, when a smoke alarm goes off, it's a false alarm. Just as when the lightning bolt shows up on a Raspberry Pi.

But every once in a while, of course, it actually means something...
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If a post offends you, just put that poster on your foes list, and be done with it (and with them).

To do otherwise, risks being banned.

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Re: Under-voltage detected! (0x00050005) ... how to disable?

Thu May 17, 2018 9:59 am

News at 10. Person ignoring smoke alarm killed in fire. (never EVER turn off a smoke detector)

Had enough of this thread, my point is made. We are not changing anything, but others, since they have the source, are perfectly able to do so should they wish.
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