Kuja65
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My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:57 am

Hello,

My first post here...

My 13 year old son has saved money from his allowance to buy a Raspberry Pi.

He has bought a model B+ only a couple of weeks ago.
He made this decision after much planning ...and hours of reading spent on the raspberrypi.org site and the forums.

Today he saw the Pi2 coming out of the blue, and that his brand new Pi is now discontinued!
Now he feels cheated and not being told the truth. :(

This is what the raspberrypi.org FAQ page was saying only two days ago (courtesy of the Internet Archive Wayback Machine):

https://web.archive.org/web/20150203193 ... help/faqs/
7. WHEN WILL THE NEXT MODEL OF THE RASPBERRY PI BE RELEASED?

As of the July of 2014, an updated version of the Model B, the Model B+, has been released. Beyond this revision, which updated certain pieces of hardware without changing the main processor on the board, there are no immediate plans for the next model; a new model may be released in 2-3 years, but this is not a firm schedule. A new model would inherently undo much of the community work that has been done to date on the Raspberry Pi, which would be counter-productive to our educational aims. We concentrate our engineering effort on making the software that runs on the Raspberry Pi faster and better all the time – which is why you should always be running the most recent firmware.
This gave him a feeling of security, that he is buying a computer that will be current for a longer time, etc...

Is he right? Was he cheated?

Ok, I understand that some secrecy is expected, because of the remaining stocks of the older model, etc, etc.

But... having this text on raspberrypi.org site, telling that no new version is coming in 2-3 years,
because it (quote) "would be counter-productive to our educational aims",
only two days (!) prior to releasing a MAJOR update, is not OK in his (and my) book! :(

I could say to him:
Look son, this is charity, Raspberry Pi is not that expensive,
you can save some more money from your allowance and just buy the current model too,
the B+ is still a fine machine on its own, etc, ...

...but I doubt that it would make him feel good about this.


.

simpex
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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:08 am

Raspberry Pi 2 is so different from the previous models and so new that likely it could have some issues. Let other people discover them and buy a stable Raspberry Pi 2, with all bugs fixed, next year.

ktb
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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:23 am

Kuja65 wrote:his brand new Pi is now discontinued!
Not true, as far as I know.
Kuja65 wrote:the B+ is still a fine machine on its own, etc, ...
Correct.
Kuja65 wrote:...but I doubt that it would make him feel good about this.
That is an understandable reaction.

ceteras
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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:43 am

Kuja65 wrote: Now he feels cheated and not being told the truth. :(
.
My son is 13 too, I can understand how they see the world right now, that is how he would feel. Especially if it's his purchase from his own allowance.
I think it's your opportunity to explain to him some things about economics and how the world works right now, it's a lesson he will remember. Also you can make a nice gesture and buy a PI2.0 for him, after all it's not that expensive. So in the end all will be great, after all what can be better than a Raspberry Pi? Having two of them! Let him use the saved money for accessories and peripherals.

gmc
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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:06 am

He shouldn't feel cheated - that is just part of life.

The older versions as far as I know have not been discontinued. They are still more than capable of running most projects and is still a good platform to learn and play around on. I've been messing around on Pi's since day 1 and am still learning new things every day.

nobbit
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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:23 am

A few years ago my wife bought a MacBook Air. The week after she did the new model came out. The new model had a faster processor, USB 3.0 connectors and more RAM. All for the same price.

This happens all the time in the computer world. To feel cheated and/or disappointed is entirely natural when it does; especially if it's taken you time to save up for the thing you buy. But it is - for good or bad - a very common course of events. (As is the lag in documentation, sadly). C'est la vie. You just have to learn to shrug, chuckle at the bad luck/timing and move on.

Does he have any specific plans for his Pi? Any plans that the B+ can't handle? Or is it just to learn more?

The B+ is very versatile. If he's a beginner it will be enough for him for a long time; and definitely good enough to be a learning platform until he's saved up for a Pi2, by which time he could be a linux expert if he wants to.

KenT
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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:27 am

Pi2 is not the new model cited in the FAQ as it is 99.9% compatible with the old model, also B+ will be available while there is demand.

There will almost certainly be some bugs in the P2 which will require ironing out, a couple have emerged already. Your son will be very frustrated if he had waited and hit one of these bugs with his new acquisition, best to have fun with a tried and tested solution. Frustration will probably be worse as he will likely have to wait for delivery. I'm holding off buying a Pi2 until all the brave early adopters have found and fixed the bugs for me.

For the programs he will initially write there will be very little difference in speed as multiple cores need special programs.

Unfortunately we live in an age of hype whipped up by marketeers and aimed at teenagers. A grown up son is one who sees through this. I've had 3 year so of enjoyment just writing a single program.
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jamesh
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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:39 am

He shouldn't feel cheated. You bought and received exactly what you paid for. It's tough, I know, but that's the world around us all.

There are very specific reasons why companies keep product launches very quiet - Apple are the same, as referenced above - and they have been explained elsewhere. As far as I can tell, and I have spoken to the RPF Foundations CEO on this very subject, there seems no other option. If there were, they would use it, to avoid situations exactly like this.

As for the comments on the website about 2-3 years - those have been there for some time, and at the time they were made, were fairly accurate. However, things change, and sometimes, website updates don't reflect that.
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EtonMess
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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:49 am

It's understandable that he should feel a bit let down. The Raspberry Pi world is going to be doing loads of new exciting stuff that has been made possible by the capability of the more powerful design. The B+ is going to be left behind in that respect, and if his
peers can do thing with the Pi that he can't then I can see why that would feel a bit deflating.

Raspberry Pi foundation were between a rock and a hard place though, the decision to do it that way would have been to protect the charity, suppliers and retail channels from having thousands of pounds of slow moving stock.

I would see what I could get for a almost new B+ on Ebay or CEX and put that towards a new Pi2.
.G6FIR

Heater
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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:04 am

When I was 13 I felt cheated a lot.

One of the ways I was cheated is that despite dreaming about and reading about computers starting from around age 10 I did not actually get to use a computer at all until age 17. There were no computers one could buy and take home for another 4 years after that. And when there were I could not afford them.

Anyone feeling "hard done by" following the Pi 2 launch should stop to consider how lucky they are to have a machine as capable and cheap as the Pi in their hands.

Or let's look at this another way:

If one actually really needed the extra 3 cores, 200Mhz, and 512MB of RAM of the Pi 2 to do whatever it is they want to do, they would not have bought the Pi 1 now would they.

So clearly all that was not required by your son, the Pi he has fits the bill for his original plans. That Pi still works and will continue to work. He should be very happy. The launch of a new model should and does not affect any of that.

If he starts saving now, by the time he has exhausted the limits of his current Pi he will have enough for a Pi 2. Of course when he has that the Pi 3 will come out the following week.

In short, tell him to stop whining, man up and realize that life is full of hard knocks and surprises. It only gets worse as time goes by:)

Sorry to sound so hard, but life is like that.

EtonMess
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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:10 am

It's true that sometime s hit happens in life and we take a few knocks and they are good lessons to learn.

And it's fine if you have a purpose in mind for a B+, the B+ is capable of doing it, then the new Pi2 is not relevant.

But a 13 year who wants to get involved in the community projects with other people, doesn't want to be left out of the exciting stuff because their kit isn't up to it. Especially if peers are running with Pi2.

I would actively be looking for ways to upgrade asap.
.G6FIR

joseaplaza
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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:17 am

Your son's reaction is understandable. As i see it, many of the new developments will be aimed towards the Pi2, and surely he was expecting he would be able to run every piece of Pi software on his brand new B+.

Personally, i think it's great to keep the hw the most updated, as it allows getting more juice out of it, but it has been a really bad idea keeping the development a secret, and not updating any of the FAQs&Info to allow the knowledge of the new model design. There was no need to keep that information from the community, after all, they are supposed to be a Foundation, not a Business.

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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:17 am

HE may feel cheated, but he is not.
he has a raspberry that can do a shed load of stuff it does everything that it was going to do before , and I've just checked and my RPi's are still doing what they did before - they have not stopped working
lessons have been learnt
you could feel a bit generous and buy him a Pi2 - as an upgrade / spare -
there are a lot of mileage in seeing what the differences are between the 2
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EtonMess
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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:24 am

"I've just checked and my RPi's are still doing what they did before - they have not stopped working"

This is true, and I am happy with all my Pis for the same reason.

But it's not really relevant to a 13 year old just starting out.
.G6FIR

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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:33 am

Your son got a valuable lesson: Even when he did the research and the best choice based on that research, he made a suboptimal choice. He got the valuable lesson to not trust what people write on the Internet. "Business is business", even when it is from a charity. The Foundation denied him a rational choice because it wants to protect the interest of the 'ingroup' at the expense of the 'outgroup'. Your son - being a part of the 'outgroup' - was fed misinformation.

In my opinion it is very understandable to feel cheated when being fed misinformation by people that you imagined you could trust. You'll notice that the discussion will be taken to the direction that your son is emotionally immature and whining because he is not happy what he got - and that this was a good lesson on the road to maturity. Really, it is also a lesson in more than that - and I don't think it is a good lesson. You could discuss with him about the 'Osborne effect' and see if he accepts that protecting the Foundation and its allies from it by misinforming their customers is justified. Personally I don't think that it is. Most companies are able to give their customers some 'road maps' of what is coming without leaving themselves or their allies in trouble. The choice is really is not between telling everyone everything at once or keeping the 'outgroup' deliberately totally in the dark until the last minute. There are other motivations for this kind of surprise releases: Making a big splash gives free press and build up the 'hype train'. Competing business will get more damage when the surprise release changes the landscape where they just released or are about to release a new product.

I probably would remind him, like many suggests, that newly released products do have unforeseen problems and bugs that can cause frustration for early adopters and that waiting until the problems are ironed out is often prudent. You could also promise to buy him the Pi 2 after he first gets started with his Pi B+ and the Pi 2 matures, after a few months.

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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:37 am

KenT wrote:Pi2 is not the new model cited in the FAQ as it is 99.9% compatible with the old model
Seriously ?

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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:44 am

jamesh wrote:There are very specific reasons why companies keep product launches very quiet - Apple are the same, as referenced above - and they have been explained elsewhere. As far as I can tell, and I have spoken to the RPF Foundations CEO on this very subject, there seems no other option. If there were, they would use it, to avoid situations exactly like this.

As for the comments on the website about 2-3 years - those have been there for some time, and at the time they were made, were fairly accurate. However, things change, and sometimes, website updates don't reflect that.
I have to agree with the OP that this website published false information. That goes beyond keeping things quiet.

There clearly is another option: The ethical approach, consistent with commercial realities would be to make no official statements about future product schedules that not likely to honoured. Taking the OP quote from the FAQ as accurate, it is either a mistake, or deliberate misinformation.

It makes sense not to disclose new products before they launch, and there will be people who feel disappointed that they ordered the old model the day before the new model launched. That's just life.

To actually tell people the day before launch that there is no new product for more than a year is deception. This is so even if the statement was posted 1 year earlier stating "not for 2 - 3 years". Having made such a statement you can't remove it for fear of giving the game away.

I suggest the RPF avoids making any statements of the "not for x years" form. What purpose does such a statement serve?

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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:52 am

There's not a lot more to say, apart from perhaps giving some background in to the previous statements about when the Pi2 might be coming out.

Two years ago, 2017 would have been the best date for a new Pi, but the technology world changes quickly. Things like the ODROID-C1 mean that for the same price there was much more competent device, and something needed to be done. Broadcom had been working on the 2836 and even though the team was small, this work came to fruition much faster than expected (the chip worked first time!) , so there was an opportunity to catch up with the other SBC's out there, earlier than expected. Also worth noting that although the Foundation is a charity, they are still a business, and need to keep going as a business. With the education team running full tilt, and some expensive engineers to pay for, they need a steady income stream, and the P2 is how that revenue stream is maintained.
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Heater
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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:00 am

I'm appalled by all these accusations of "lying", "cheating", "deception" etc on the part of the Foundation. "ingroups", "outgroups", WTF?

Makes it sound like the Foundation is some big, bad, evil, predatory organization out to screw people over. Crazy.

Good grief this is a minor upgrade to an existing product. Happens all the time. It's provided at the same old price. It's nice but not essential.

Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps even the Foundation did not know if this would happen and or when? Better not to shout about something until you know it works. Then there is the oft mentioned Osborne effect.

Now imagine what happens when you announce a new product, your current product sales drop to zero as everyone knows the new mode is available next month. Then you hit problems in the design, development, production, or supply of the new model that delays it for 6 months or a year! Oops, disaster all round. And everybody is miserable.

So stop it everybody. The Foundation has served us proudly on this. Go forth and buy more Pi.

Note: I said "minor upgrade" on purpose. Not to denigrate the Pi 2 in any way. But really, I'm sure that for most things we currently use Pi's for you won't be seeing massive speed boosts. Sure it will enable some new things to be done that make use of vector floating point or more RAM, but basically it's the same machine. Which by the way I think is an excellent thing to be.

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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:09 am

Kuja65 wrote:Hello,

My first post here...

My 13 year old son has saved money from his allowance to buy a Raspberry Pi.

He has bought a model B+ only a couple of weeks ago.
He made this decision after much planning ...and hours of reading spent on the raspberrypi.org site and the forums.

Today he saw the Pi2 coming out of the blue, and that his brand new Pi is now discontinued!
Now he feels cheated and not being told the truth. :(

This is what the raspberrypi.org FAQ page was saying only two days ago (courtesy of the Internet Archive Wayback Machine):

https://web.archive.org/web/20150203193 ... help/faqs/
7. WHEN WILL THE NEXT MODEL OF THE RASPBERRY PI BE RELEASED?

As of the July of 2014, an updated version of the Model B, the Model B+, has been released. Beyond this revision, which updated certain pieces of hardware without changing the main processor on the board, there are no immediate plans for the next model; a new model may be released in 2-3 years, but this is not a firm schedule. A new model would inherently undo much of the community work that has been done to date on the Raspberry Pi, which would be counter-productive to our educational aims. We concentrate our engineering effort on making the software that runs on the Raspberry Pi faster and better all the time – which is why you should always be running the most recent firmware.
This gave him a feeling of security, that he is buying a computer that will be current for a longer time, etc...

Is he right? Was he cheated?

Ok, I understand that some secrecy is expected, because of the remaining stocks of the older model, etc, etc.

But... having this text on raspberrypi.org site, telling that no new version is coming in 2-3 years,
because it (quote) "would be counter-productive to our educational aims",
only two days (!) prior to releasing a MAJOR update, is not OK in his (and my) book! :(

I could say to him:
Look son, this is charity, Raspberry Pi is not that expensive,
you can save some more money from your allowance and just buy the current model too,
the B+ is still a fine machine on its own, etc, ...

...but I doubt that it would make him feel good about this.


.
Let your son learn to drive a Ford ,
Before driving a Lambogrhini.
Let the Pi2 prove it's self for a while
Probely still in the Beta stage.
Reed a few revues on it first
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PiGraham
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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:09 am

I have absolutely no problem with the RPF keeping release dates secret.

I have a problem with this being in the FAQ:
As of the July of 2014, an updated version of the Model B, the Model B+, has been released. Beyond this revision, which updated certain pieces of hardware without changing the main processor on the board, there are no immediate plans for the next model; a new model may be released in 2-3 years, but this is not a firm schedule. A new model would inherently undo much of the community work that has been done to date on the Raspberry Pi, which would be counter-productive to our educational aims.
Why post that?

What it a true statement for RPF as an organisation at the time?

Even assuming it was true at the time, was it a wise thing to post it, given the acknowledged problem of making development schedules public?

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piglet
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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:11 am

Reading the posts so far I quite understand the "tough luck, got over it" comments - however they miss the quite sensible and clearly articulated point being made by the OP:

The official site said "there are no immediate plans for the next model; a new model may be released in 2-3 years" at a time when the new model was already planned, tested, produced at industrial volumes and readied by retailers for retail sale.

I don't doubt for a minute that this FAQ was correct when written, and probably remained on the site because nobody "in the know" about the new release remembered it was there. However it was clearly misleading and incorrect at the point in time the OP's son read it.

There is a clear difference between maintaining secrecy of product and having a factually incorrect and misleading statement on an official website.

I personally don't think the OP's son is being unreasonable at all.

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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:12 am

jamesh wrote:There's not a lot more to say, apart from perhaps giving some background in to the previous statements about when the Pi2 might be coming out.

Two years ago, 2017 would have been the best date for a new Pi, but the technology world changes quickly. Things like the ODROID-C1 mean that for the same price there was much more competent device, and something needed to be done. Broadcom had been working on the 2836 and even though the team was small, this work came to fruition much faster than expected (the chip worked first time!) , so there was an opportunity to catch up with the other SBC's out there, earlier than expected. Also worth noting that although the Foundation is a charity, they are still a business, and need to keep going as a business. With the education team running full tilt, and some expensive engineers to pay for, they need a steady income stream, and the P2 is how that revenue stream is maintained.
I don't think any of that is at issue. I agree that RPF have good reasons for not publicising their product development schedules.

Maybe they should refrain from publishing false or misleading development schedules.

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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:15 am

PiGraham wrote:
jamesh wrote:There's not a lot more to say, apart from perhaps giving some background in to the previous statements about when the Pi2 might be coming out.

Two years ago, 2017 would have been the best date for a new Pi, but the technology world changes quickly. Things like the ODROID-C1 mean that for the same price there was much more competent device, and something needed to be done. Broadcom had been working on the 2836 and even though the team was small, this work came to fruition much faster than expected (the chip worked first time!) , so there was an opportunity to catch up with the other SBC's out there, earlier than expected. Also worth noting that although the Foundation is a charity, they are still a business, and need to keep going as a business. With the education team running full tilt, and some expensive engineers to pay for, they need a steady income stream, and the P2 is how that revenue stream is maintained.
I don't think any of that is at issue. I agree that RPF have good reasons for not publicising their product development schedules.

Maybe they should refrain from publishing false or misleading development schedules.
The problem is I think the website doesn't get updated as much as it should. If you go back to earlier blog comments, then there is clearly wrong information in them that has never been updated. But I will flag this up for better handling, it could be done better.
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Re: My 13 year old son feels cheated

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:17 am

Heater wrote:I'm appalled by all these accusations of "lying", "cheating", "deception" etc on the part of the Foundation. "ingroups", "outgroups", WTF?

Makes it sound like the Foundation is some big, bad, evil, predatory organization out to screw people over. Crazy.

Good grief this is a minor upgrade to an existing product. Happens all the time. It's provided at the same old price. It's nice but not essential.

Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps even the Foundation did not know if this would happen and or when? Better not to shout about something until you know it works. Then there is the oft mentioned Osborne effect.
Better not to post about when it isn't going to happen on an official FAQ.

It seem rather unlikely that in July last year nobody at RPF knew of plans for Pi2.

Better not to shout about not doing something you then do.

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