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ArborealSeer
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What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:44 am

Hi Everyone, peeking out from my hiding place in the woods to throw some conjecture on here!

I've seen a bit of confusion and accidental misinformation out there regarding the existing news about RPI2, and as there's not already a topic out there on this I thought I'd fire one up, specifically targeting the Windows 10 IoT aspect. I've thrown in a few sentences to tie up loose ends for people who casually end up here from Google too.

Windows 10 This is not the Windows 10 that runs on your PC but Windows 10 for IoT. Its at the very least the one that already runs on the Intel Galileo platform. As such it won't run the exact same programs you installed on your home/business PC.

Development This already means that the industry standard Visual Studio (which has an available free edition) can be used to Remote Debug devices.

The UI The screenshots people have seen of a CLI are not taken from on the existing IoT devices, they are of Windows hosts shelling into the Galileo platform, as those platforms have no video support.

Now for the conjecture. I believe that because the RPI2 has video output that it will be at the very least the 'free Windows 10" available for sub 7" arm tablets (no desktop, but with Modern UI (metro) interface). However as arguably a non-headless RPI2 will be connected to a monitor the other, >7" ruling applies, and the desktop will be available. Either way this would mean the RPI2 would support the new Microsoft Universal Application Model which includes DirectX. (or OpenGL ES via the MS Open Tech port of ANGLE project) would be supported.

Further implications.

Now here's what I think is the big plus.

Distribution If either of my two conjectures above is correct the RPI2 will be tied into the eco-system for Arm Windows apps. This is huge. It means a wealth of existing apps, as well as a nice way to distribute you programs to other users.

I guess the wins are easy to see from the Raspberry Pi side. Apps not tied to specific configurations requiring additional hardware can be downloaded on all sorts of Arm phones and tablets.

From Microsoft side this is a win, because, frankly, their app store sucks. big time compared to the Apple App store. (I do use both an iPad and an x86 Windows tablet, they have very different advantages). Microsoft, unlike Apple don't have platform restrictions on their app store submissions, and don't have developer fee's. Aside from requiring a Windows machine to run VS2013+ there is a very very low cost of entry.
Last edited by ArborealSeer on Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:39 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' means for Raspberry Pi 2?

Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:51 am

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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:51 am

Just quick note to possible posters.

Any posts slagging off Windows or MS will be deleted as soon as they are seen. So don't bother.
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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:06 am

Thank you James, I was going to post something similar myself at the foot of my post but refrained :)


I did notice you posted in the FAQ about the UI, or lack thereof but I understand if you don't/can't confirm/deny some of my conjecture.


At the very least my biggest hope is for the Universal Application Model support, with, Direct X. (and therefore ANGLE project).
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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:30 am

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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:30 am

Are you sure about that cost of entry to the Windows App Hub? I thought it was $99 per year (same as Apple) and 30% of paid app revenue. Its free if you can prove student or educational use.

BTW Google offer a much more reasonable $25 one time fee.

Edit: Current Microsoft Pricing: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/librar ... 63494.aspx

Individual accounts can be had for 12 quid per year but have restrictions.
Last edited by ptbw on Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:31 am

ArborealSeer wrote:Thank you James, I was going to post something similar myself at the foot of my post but refrained :)


I did notice you posted in the FAQ about the UI, or lack thereof but I understand if you don't/can't confirm/deny some of my conjecture.


At the very least my biggest hope is for the Universal Application Model support, with, Direct X. (and therefore ANGLE project).
The version on Win10 is the IoT version, which I haven't seen, but I believe is designed for small devices, not desktops, and hence has little or no graphical output.
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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:42 am

The lack of information is the reason for my carefully tiered conjecture :)
ptbw wrote:Are you sure about that cost of entry to the Windows App Hub?
Not entirely. However, you don't have to also invest a couple hundred on Apple hardware (like a Mac Mini) to build the app either!

Overall cost of entry would be a lot lower, which is a good thing (tm).
PeterO wrote:Some useful info here : http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts ... to-expect/

PeterO
Thanks Peter, tha's a great link and still leaves more things asking.

Does make it seem like at the very least the Universal App Model will exist, I'm hoping the GPU is exposed too.

Seems like Build 2015/End of April will be when more is revealed.
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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:58 am

ArborealSeer wrote:Windows 10 This is not the Windows 10 that runs on your PC
I know of at least one person who read that the Pi will run Windows 10 and took that to mean running a traditional Windows OS with a desktop and point and click interface and threatening to take it to trading standards if it wasn't as advertised. I guess that's the first picture "Runs Windows 10" conjures up and why there was so much interest yesterday.

Microsoft's details are pretty thin at this time so it is hard to know exactly what is on offer. I can't imagine it won't have some capability to use a display, even if just access to the frame buffer, perhaps a window manager but whether a desktop ( or you can roll your own ) I don't know.

I guess we just have to wait and see but it's not in Microsoft's interests to deliver something which doesn't appeal to the audience they are targeting.

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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:19 pm

jamesh wrote:The version on Win10 is the IoT version, which I haven't seen, but I believe is designed for small devices, not desktops, and hence has little or no graphical output.
From a tech report I read, Windows 10 for IoT comes in three flavours [ and see Peter O's link earlier ] -

Standard - Pretty much desktop, for POS terminals etc
Mobile - Windows phone style etc
Compact - Traditional embedded; printers, ticket machines, robots etc

It seems that the version for Pi 2 is currently a compact version. That makes sense with respect to the maker audience they seem to be aiming for.
Last edited by hippy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:20 pm

It does tend to illustrate just how desperate Microsoft are getting in their struggle to remain relevant in age of the phone and tablet.
Think about IBM. About a decade ago, the mainframe biz crashed and burned (as it turns out, only temporarily, but that's not particularly germane to this discussion). IBM stock lost 3/4 of its value. It was a real "buy" opportunity (one that I, alas, missed out on).

Within a year or two, it had bounced back to its previous value. And, nowadays, IBM has done a good job of re-inventing itself as a modern, service oriented company. I could easily see MS doing likewise.

I'd like to see MS's stock go down quite a bit more, then it looks like a good buy.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:11 am

All the big players, including Apple have been through paradigm shifts and reinvention. Its a must-do for a successful modern company. This is why investment in research programs and labs by global companies allows them to be ahead of the game by investigating, and driving the innovation in emerging tech. (As a side note, Microsoft have one of its seven worldwide research labs at Microsoft Research Cambridge , which has strong links to Cambridge University which of course itself has very strong Raspberry Pi related links)
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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:34 am

PeterO wrote:Some useful info here : http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts ... to-expect/

PeterO
That's the most interesting source I have seen so far. Thank you.
One of my sources who knows quite a bit about Windows 10 says Athens is the more likely answer.
And from the slide on that page:
Athens
Built on ARM or x86
An optimised version of Windows for resource and cost constrained devices with the full power of modern application development to run Universal Apps
According to that job post for IoT China, which is part of the Beijing-based arm of Microsoft's Operating System Group, Microsoft was looking for an engineer "to help defining and delivering a set of cross platform technologies for migrating Windows Embedded Compact applications to run on Windows 10 based Athens platform." So it sounds as if Athens may be the intended successor to Windows Embedded Compact.
Universal Apps

Windows Embedded Compact
Windows Embedded Compact 7 is a componentised, real-time operating system designed for small-footprint devices at the edge of enterprise networks. With support for x86 and ARM architectures, Windows Embedded Compact 7 allows devices to leverage the latest innovations in hardware, and equips developers and device manufacturers with the tools they need to create nimble, enterprise-class intelligent system solutions, while reducing time to market.


Rich user interface

Includes XAML for Windows Embedded, a powerful technology which allows you to build interfaces that incorporate touch and gesture support.
Last edited by PiGraham on Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:54 am

Very interesting link , PeterO .
Thanks.

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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:01 pm

For anyone wondering why their posts keep disappearing, can I suggest they read the third post in this thread.
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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:03 pm

jamesh wrote:For anyone wondering why their posts keep disappearing, can I suggest they read the third post in this thread.
Oh, we're not wondering. We're just greatly amused by it.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:08 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote:
jamesh wrote:For anyone wondering why their posts keep disappearing, can I suggest they read the third post in this thread.
Oh, we're not wondering. We're just greatly amused by it.
I'm amused that people seem incapable of reading comprehension. I'm not amused that I keep having to moderate stuff that I really shouldn't have to - see previous sentence.
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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:16 pm

jamesh wrote:I'm amused that people seem incapable of reading comprehension. I'm not amused that I keep having to moderate stuff that I really shouldn't have to - see previous sentence.
Frankly, if these people were banned (no, not Joe), I wouldn't miss 'em. It's just wilful time wasting after the warning that was given - though to be fair, probably not the cause of yesterday's server meltdowns.

Anyway it's not up to me, but I wish people would take the hint to take their rants against certain companies elsewhere. Most of us just come here to hear how the Raspi's doing.

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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:35 pm

People who can't, rant? :lol:
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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:38 pm

ArborealSeer wrote:People who can't, rant? :lol:
Brilliant. Post of The Year, 2015.

Remember where you heard it first! :)

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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:46 pm

For heaven's sake, it's just a computer. It runs software, who cares what software?

And why does 3000 posts give you the right to be correct?

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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:16 pm

pluggy wrote:Us old hands with 3000+ posts reserve the right to make scathing comments about a certain Redmond based company, and a certain charity founder "drinking the kool aid".
Er why? You aren't forced with your arm held up your back to use any product created by Microsoft.
Personally I'm happy with Win81 and I just don't get the hostility to Microsoft. How have they ever harmed you?. Hostility to Facebook is a completely different issue.

When it comes to spreadsheets you can't beat Excel, I've been a fan of that since V2.0. OpenOffice and LibreOffice are total **** compared to Excel.

I can't wait for the Windows Developer program to get running. I may have to buy a second RPI2 for that.
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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:22 pm

jamesh wrote:Just quick note to possible posters.

Any posts slagging off Windows or MS will be deleted as soon as they are seen. So don't bother.

Slag Slag -> MS <-- Slag Slag Slag
You Brits have speak funny.

I think its good that RPi has MS's support.
Can't wait to download it. Can't wait to get the new pi 2. Actually, I can wait. I have too many pis already. Two of them, pi B+s are still in their anti-static bags. I guess I can give them to schools.
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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:27 pm

pluggy wrote:I've nothing against Windows, cleaning malware from pensioners laptops and giving Windows IT support in a school pays the bills.

The Pi had too many operating systems last month, offering another one that is "windows" that isn't windows is doing nobody any favours.

It doesn't give the right to be correct, god knows I've made screw ups , but I think it excludes me from "People who can't"

Of apple, android, und vindows phones...windows phones and tablets are the least restrictive.
I still prefer linux though there aren't any mass linux phones and tablets.
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Re: What Windows 10 'IoT' could mean for Raspberry Pi 2

Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:33 pm

To bring this back to topic...

What does Windows 10 'IoT' actually do? What type of applications will we be able to run on it?
Is it similar to Ubuntu Snappy?
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