cashaw
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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:12 pm

VBT wrote:accept the small loss of the purchase price.
....and be content that you have supported a charity with the intention to teach others how to programme and learn more about computing. !

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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:18 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote: Here, just for reference, is what they should have done.

*) Made it clear that this is a development release by charging $100 for the board. There is certainly precedent for, and it is entirely normal for, the "development release" of a tech product to cost more than the intended eventual retail price. The benefits (win/win/win for literally everyone involved) are so obvious, that I need not re-iterate them here.
In your opinion. Which I disagree with, because that would make it more expensive that Beagles and Arduino's, so there would be no point in it. There would also be no '$25' strap line, which immediately loses you all the publicity - no point in saying "This little device will be $25/$35, but not yet., At the moment it's $100" - you would be laughed at . Thing is, no-one can know what using a different scheme would have resulted in. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that it would have disappeared without trace if ANYTHING had been different. Price, form factor, feature set etc. Butterfly effect applies.
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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:26 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote:I think the "spilt milk" argument is BS - and sounds like someone (or some organization) trying to avoid facing unpleasant truths.

Even if the Foundation itself never faces this situation again, which is unlikely, because there's always another time - either there's going to be other products from the Foundation in the future or the Foundation is going to cease to exist. One or the other, and I think we all hope it is the former, not the later. But, as I say, even if the Foundation never faces this situation again, the fact is that many of us will continue to evolve and grow in the tech field, and how we deal with situations like this will make or break careers.

Here, just for reference, is what they should have done.

*) Made it clear that this is a development release by charging $100 for the board. There is certainly precedent for, and it is entirely normal for, the "development release" of a tech product to cost more than the intended eventual retail price. The benefits (win/win/win for literally everyone involved) are so obvious, that I need not re-iterate them here.
First of all Joe, I'm not and never will be part of the foundation or any other organization that is officially, directly or indirectly involved with the Raspberry Pi in any fashion other than being a member of this forum.

As for the "spilt milk" being BS, I gotta disagree with you. I myself hashed that out at first in a few threads before I realized the futility of beating a dead horse, since it has been a much repeated topic on these forums for months now. If the powers that be here haven't realized the mistakes that happened at this point in time and worked to correct them from happening again (which I doubt, but anything is possible I suppose) then it's just as futile and a waste of time anyway.

Better to move on and adapt to what it is than to just continue belaboring a point that has been made many times before. What if's get you nowhere, they didn't happen then, but hopefully will be the target of any further releases.

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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:57 pm

Does anyone else think of the ouroboros every time they see this topic crop up *again*?

I don't think increasing the price point of the Pi would have gotten it through the majority of people's head that this is a development board. Indeed based on how people have reacted to learning that shipping/vat/tax aren't free, I think that evidence show that increasing the price to $100 would have caused the community to go nuclear (and rightly so)
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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:14 pm

VBT wrote: As for the "spilt milk" being BS, I gotta disagree with you. I myself hashed that out at first in a few threads before I realized the futility of beating a dead horse, since it has been a much repeated topic on these forums for months now. If the powers that be here haven't realized the mistakes that happened at this point in time and worked to correct them from happening again (which I doubt, but anything is possible I suppose) then it's just as futile and a waste of time anyway.
Of course, you are assuming that mistakes were made. And yes, mistakes were made, but probably not the ones you are thinking of!

You are also presupposing that nothing has been learnt when mistakes have happened, which is rather an odd thing to assume, and that the Foundation members just sit back and watch what's going on, not bothering correct issues when they turn up. Which is couldn't be further from the truth. A colossal amount of stuff goes on and is still going on behind the scenes that for various reasons cannot be made public, just to make everyone's experience of Raspi's better. Eben and Liz and the rest of the involved people haven't just sat back and basked. This is full on stuff.

Also, please don't assume that the people running the project are stupid, just because it isn't being run the way YOU think it should be run. TBH, most people would have given up months ago given the amount of crap Liz and Eben et al have had to get through just to get to this stage.
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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:25 pm

VBT - it sounds to me like we're really on the same page (*). That is, there's two aspects to this (as there is to every contentious topic that arises in any online forum): 1) The underlying reality and 2) the wisdom of discussing it here (in front of God and everybody). I think we agree on the underlying reality, but maybe disagree on the wisdom part. Maybe I should just hold my tongue every time this topic comes up, but somehow, I just can't.

James, Abishur: It sounds like we disagree as to whether or not there is precedent for "developer" releases costing more than the "intended, eventual, retail price". Obviously, there's nothing we can do or say to convince each other to change our views on this, central-to-the-discussion, point. I will just say that it seems to me that a lot of the problems were caused by "retail" customers (read: non-hackers) getting on the bandwagon too soon.



(*) Although if you disagree with this, I don't think it would do either of any good to continue to debate it here. The bandwidth for that conversation doesn't exist (on an online forum).


P.S. James, you managed to "slip in" a response as I was composing. Let me just say that I take your meaning, and do not in any way disagree with what you've said (specifically, about there being a lot going on that we, in the peanut gallery, aren't privy to). To put it another way, there's always a fine line between wanting to have an open forum and the need to keep some things private.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:38 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote: James, Abishur: It sounds like we disagree as to whether or not there is precedent for "developer" releases costing more than the "intended, eventual, retail price". Obviously, there's nothing we can do or say to convince each other to change our views on this, central-to-the-discussion, point. I will just say that it seems to me that a lot of the problems were caused by "retail" customers (read: non-hackers) getting on the bandwagon too soon.
I can't speak for James, but I wasn't saying I disagreed with you about the developer's release pricing idea. I was saying it wasn't a practical option. That the very people who are buying the pi, getting pissed that it won't do what they want it to out of the box (and therefore asserting that the device was "overpromised"), also wouldn't have understood that the price increase was temporary as this was meant for developers even if they had plastered every page with blurbs explaining that it was a developers release. That they would have (understandably) gone insane.

All things considered, while it has made for a bit a bumpy ride, I'm somewhat glad that so many no hackers are trying to use the board. More often than not, it has encouraged them to join the community and learn to go deeper than they would have if they only got the "finished" product. True it has made for some vocal discontents, and I'm positive it has also resulted in people just throwing the board in a junk electronic drawer, but the anecdotal evidence on the forum would suggest that it has result in a net positive result, such addressing the power and SD card issues. Things that have only really been brought to light due to how many Pis were out there in the hands of people who don't always bother to read instructions or wiki articles ;-)
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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:42 pm

We would not have had the developers making the gains they are making with a higher price point.
A higher price would certainly have eliminated me.

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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:57 pm

In case it's not obvious, it's also worth pointing out that the "extra-cost developer version" of a product typically comes with many extra features - documentation, programming examples, debugging interfaces, extra support, etc. etc. that the "final end-user version" doesn't. But in the case of the Raspi there's no difference between the developer version and the end-user version (in fact the end-user version will actually come with "more" by having a case ;) )

Although thinking about it, given that the aim of the RPi is to teach programming, I guess you could classify all versions of the Raspi as the "developer version" :lol:

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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:00 pm

jamesh wrote:
VBT wrote: As for the "spilt milk" being BS, I gotta disagree with you. I myself hashed that out at first in a few threads before I realized the futility of beating a dead horse, since it has been a much repeated topic on these forums for months now. If the powers that be here haven't realized the mistakes that happened at this point in time and worked to correct them from happening again (which I doubt, but anything is possible I suppose) then it's just as futile and a waste of time anyway.
Of course, you are assuming that mistakes were made. And yes, mistakes were made, but probably not the ones you are thinking of!

You are also presupposing that nothing has been learnt when mistakes have happened, which is rather an odd thing to assume, and that the Foundation members just sit back and watch what's going on, not bothering correct issues when they turn up. Which is couldn't be further from the truth. A colossal amount of stuff goes on and is still going on behind the scenes that for various reasons cannot be made public, just to make everyone's experience of Raspi's better. Eben and Liz and the rest of the involved people haven't just sat back and basked. This is full on stuff.

Also, please don't assume that the people running the project are stupid, just because it isn't being run the way YOU think it should be run. TBH, most people would have given up months ago given the amount of crap Liz and Eben et al have had to get through just to get to this stage.

Sounds like you took my post the wrong way James. If you read it correctly it supported them and didn't assume anything or presuppose anything.

You assumed that I thought the people running the project were stupid and that I thought I had a better way to run it.

Nothing of the sort. The foundation members were just as much victims as the rest of us by the flood of popularity that accompanied the pre-launch and launch. Could it have been handled better in some ways? I suppose so, but that too is in the past and it was a learning experience for everyone involved from the person that purchased through forum member to the foundation itself.

Learning from the past is fine and a normal method of learning. Over-defending to the point of accusing supporters and re-iterating things to death is not.

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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:44 pm

VBT wrote:
jamesh wrote:
VBT wrote: As for the "spilt milk" being BS, I gotta disagree with you. I myself hashed that out at first in a few threads before I realized the futility of beating a dead horse, since it has been a much repeated topic on these forums for months now. If the powers that be here haven't realized the mistakes that happened at this point in time and worked to correct them from happening again (which I doubt, but anything is possible I suppose) then it's just as futile and a waste of time anyway.
Of course, you are assuming that mistakes were made. And yes, mistakes were made, but probably not the ones you are thinking of!

You are also presupposing that nothing has been learnt when mistakes have happened, which is rather an odd thing to assume, and that the Foundation members just sit back and watch what's going on, not bothering correct issues when they turn up. Which is couldn't be further from the truth. A colossal amount of stuff goes on and is still going on behind the scenes that for various reasons cannot be made public, just to make everyone's experience of Raspi's better. Eben and Liz and the rest of the involved people haven't just sat back and basked. This is full on stuff.

Also, please don't assume that the people running the project are stupid, just because it isn't being run the way YOU think it should be run. TBH, most people would have given up months ago given the amount of crap Liz and Eben et al have had to get through just to get to this stage.

Sounds like you took my post the wrong way James. If you read it correctly it supported them and didn't assume anything or presuppose anything.

You assumed that I thought the people running the project were stupid and that I thought I had a better way to run it.

Nothing of the sort. The foundation members were just as much victims as the rest of us by the flood of popularity that accompanied the pre-launch and launch. Could it have been handled better in some ways? I suppose so, but that too is in the past and it was a learning experience for everyone involved from the person that purchased through forum member to the foundation itself.

Learning from the past is fine and a normal method of learning. Over-defending to the point of accusing supporters and re-iterating things to death is not.
I did wonder when I was writing the reply whether I'd aimed it at the wrong person but I couldn't tell from your post which way it went! I guess I guess wrong. Apologies.
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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:41 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote: James, Abishur: It sounds like we disagree as to whether or not there is precedent for "developer" releases costing more than the "intended, eventual, retail price". Obviously, there's nothing we can do or say to convince each other to change our views on this, central-to-the-discussion, point. I will just say that it seems to me that a lot of the problems were caused by "retail" customers (read: non-hackers) getting on the bandwagon too soon.e.
What has "precedent" got to with it? We're talking about inovation. Not the law. Inovation, by its nature, precludes precedent.

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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:43 am

dom wrote:
ullix wrote:The keyboard is from DELL, model SK-1825, which has a built-in hub, to which the mouse is connected.
That's going to be the problem. Keyboards with built in hubs rarely work. They are likely to exceed the 100mA limit for Pi's USB ports. Can you try with a hub-less keyboard?
dom, you did read the remainder of the post, from which you quoted? The power supplies were higher than required, the voltage at TP1/TP2 was well in the specified range, and the keyboard issues happened even when it was connected via an additional, powered hub!

I have now measured the current drawn by the kb/mouse combo: worst case is 75mA. This is reduced by 40mA when the mouse is not moved, because the mouse LED is reduced from brightly lit to dimly lit. Keypresses do not result in extra power draw, unless the keypress results in switching on the keyboard LED indication (like Num), in which case current is increased by 5mA per LED.

So even 75mA is less than the spec of 100mA, and when entering from the command line - with no mouse moves - current demand is further reduces to 25mA, and although the TP1/TP2 voltage is at least 4.9V, the keyboard repeats and/or non-responses remain.

It does seem to be getting worse when the raspi has warmed up.

I also upgraded the firmware using rpi-update to version 321374, but found no improvement.

Something is not working according to specs.

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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:15 pm

ullix wrote: I also upgraded the firmware using rpi-update to version 321374, but found no improvement.

Something is not working according to specs.
If that's the case contact your supplier, they should ship a replacement if you return this one.

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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:35 pm

Drew wrote:
ullix wrote: I also upgraded the firmware using rpi-update to version 321374, but found no improvement.

Something is not working according to specs.
If that's the case contact your supplier, they should ship a replacement if you return this one.
I doubt it's a hardware problem. Many people had problems with repeating keys. I had it on one install myself. Just about everyone has been able to solve the problem in software or with a better PSU. I can't help but believe that anyone who can't, just isn't trying very hard.

Just look at the thread title. Think maybe someone wants the Pi to fail?

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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:18 pm

See... That's it, exactly. Us hackers see no problem (and, in fact, revel in): Oh, you fix this, you fix that, you buy a new PSU, you can't use that keyboard, because it has a built-in hub, you can't use that HDMI cable, because it isn't quite the right kind, you can't do that, you can't do this, and, Oh, Yeah! You had to do *what* with the seat???

You might have to re-solder that component; oh, you might have to order some special cable from China that takes 3 weeks to deliver (and charges as much or more for shipping than the price of the component)

And so on.

And so on.

As I said, us hackers love this sort of stuff! We live for it. We enjoy it. We get personal satisfaction out of solving these sorts of puzzles.

But, and here's the thing, the typical retail customer doesn't. In fact, as far as he is concerned the thing doesn't work, and since it cost less than a tank of gas, it just goes in the junk drawer.

All of which underscores perfectly what I've said all along, and which I re-iterated recently a few responses back: The way this was handled, the retail customers got on the bandwagon way too soon.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:20 pm

cashaw wrote:I can agree with the overhype at the launch of the Pi, at the same time the foundation did little to dampen it with their main FAQ stating "It’s a capable little PC which can be used for many of the things that your desktop PC does, like spreadsheets, word-processing and games." which of course means different things to different people, and again there is no mention in the FAQ about it being a development release. So it is not a surprise when people are a little underwhelmed when they finally discover what they've received and do not have the energy to make it do something useful.

Myself, I have had great fun in the past month, re-learning Unix, understanding how to compile kernels, setting up shares to other computers.
.
Great post Cashaw, I've often thought (That's all so far) of trying Linux from Scratch, maybe this is the device to try it in ;)

Geffers

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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:59 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote:All of which underscores perfectly what I've said all along, and which I re-iterated recently a few responses back: The way this was handled, the retail customers got on the bandwagon way too soon.
Maybe they did, but the kind of people you described ought to stick to apple products for those "who do not like to tinker" (the bit in quotes is a polite rewrite of what I really wanted to say).
Alex Eames RasPi.TV, RasP.iO

cashaw
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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:06 pm

...... and that is exactly the attitude which scares people off from buying Linux based devices such as the Pi. Infact Linux has always suffered from the attitude "If you don't know how to use it, buy Windows" when the Pi is supposed to be encouraging people to learn something new!

I don't want to sound unfair , but other than the helpful people on this forum, there is little official Foundation supporting information for the Pi which is unfortunately turning it into a hacker tool rather than a learning tool...

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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:31 pm

geffers wrote: Great post Cashaw, I've often thought (That's all so far) of trying Linux from Scratch, maybe this is the device to try it in ;)
I agree it would be great to do Linux from Scratch on a Pi. But I get the impression this might involve some extra complications. (eg can a Pi cope with everything in the LFS toolchain, or would compilation on an emulated Pi be necessary?)

I'm hoping someone figures out how to do it (& documents it...)

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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:47 pm

Hi I have been reading this thread with interest, there are many good points made for and against the OP hypotheses, I tend to agree with the OP and most of the comments about the momentum from an energised following making this a sought after devise built up expectations that would inevitably let some people down, but I was told ( as I am too young to experience this :lol: ) that Frank Hornby's Mechano assembly instructions was always published with a deliberate mistake to encourage the user to solve the problem themselves.

I would think that the people who succeeded were 'glad' of a challenge and the people who could not beat it put the set away under their beds and never became structural engineers when they grew older.

Re Hacking: I never met a hacker that has never broke anything before making it better! thats the risk we take but I don't have many hacking friends so it may only be me :D

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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:55 pm

I am not sure what the LFS toolchain is, but I attempted to compile XBMC and the complete toolchain on my Pi, it worked well for FOUR days but crashed at the end due to a GCC issue with compiling on ARM devices. It wasn't an Rpi issue as my more powerful Arm computer failed at the same point. But I learnt a lot by doing this and really understanding what the Pi was and could do,

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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:07 pm

cashaw wrote:I am not sure what the LFS toolchain is, but I attempted to compile XBMC and the complete toolchain on my Pi, it worked well for FOUR days but crashed at the end due to a GCC issue with compiling on ARM devices. It wasn't an Rpi issue as my more powerful Arm computer failed at the same point. But I learnt a lot by doing this and really understanding what the Pi was and could do,
Maybe if you write up what you tried here (or in the wiki?) someone more familiar with the issues will be able to suggest a solution? And the LFS on RPi chimera will gradually take form...

cashaw
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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:25 pm

Yep, will do, but what does LFS mean? From a hardware perspective the Rpi should be able to compile anything that an ARMv6 device can (but slowly).

My XBMC compile failed with a -mes option on the GCC compile for the library libsquid. Googling I found that this was an ARM issue and all solutions recommended cross-compiling on a i586 platform.

rasbeer
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Re: Overpromised and Underdelivered?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:32 pm

cashaw wrote:Yep, will do, but what does LFS mean? From a hardware perspective the Rpi should be able to compile anything that an ARMv6 device can (but slowly).
LFS = Linux From Scratch - sorry!

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