kme
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:50 pm

And there seems to be as many that feel that it's NOT one of the limiting factors for what they have in mind.Nonetheless it is somewhat disproportional. With the latest optimizations the raspi is on par with a similar clocked P-III in integer performance and a 700 MHz P-III with 128/256 MB RAM would be somewhat odd.

Never mind, it's not feasible to have more than 256 MB on the raspi anyway, so let's just take it as a challenge. To many of us it would be healthy to have to count bytes again. And at least I will have to learn the size difference of the same lib between x86 and ARM.

Svartalf
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:55 pm

Quote from kme on October 14, 2011, 00:50
With the latest optimizations the raspi is on par with a similar clocked P-III in integer performance and a 700 MHz P-III with 128/256 MB RAM would be somewhat odd.

X-Box Classic, anyone? :D


Never mind, it's not feasible to have more than 256 MB on the raspi anyway, so let's just take it as a challenge. To many of us it would be healthy to have to count bytes again. And at least I will have to learn the size difference of the same lib between x86 and ARM.

That's what I've been trying to get people in this thread to realise as much as anything else... :D

WizardOfOZ
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:45 pm

If memory serves, then 256MB would have been a common memory size found alongside 700MHz P-III CPUs. Even when we got to the 1.266 GHz P-III 'Tualatin' models, it was quite hard to find motherboards, which supported more than 1 GB of RAM. Once I found one that did, I built around 20 such machines for an employer. At the time we also had one of the early 1.8 GHz P-4 machines with 1 GB of Rambus RAM. Given how much that one cost us I'd hazard a guess and say that machines with 512MB+ of RAM with a 700MHz P-III wouldn't have been common.

Earlier we also a dual 550 MHz P-III Xeon, a genuine IBM server and the first 'PC' we could get our hands on, which supported 2GB of RAM. Cost us a cool £25'000 back then, so again I guess 512 MB+ wouldn't have been common, even as CPUs got a bit quicker.

Oh, and the 1.266 GHz Tualatins left the 1.8 GHz P-4 in the dust, which is probably why Intel killed that line of CPUs (until it was resurrected in their later mobile offerings).

The Raspi will be fine. :)

WizardOfOZ
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:59 am

For what little it is worth, then I am typing this in the Seamonkey browser in PuppyLinux, running on:

350 MHz P-II.
Asus P2B-DS motherboard, only one CPU slot populated (can try SMP if people desire).
128 MB of Kingston PC-100 SDRAM, as much as I could find in a hurry.
Intel EtherExpress i82Something 100Mb ethernet card.
Matrox Mystique 220 graphics card, 4MB video RAM.
40 GB Seagate Barracuda IV HD, ATA. 7200 RPM.

and I dare say it is quite useful.

- There are some usability and configuration issues, but those can be fixed and tuned if desired. For instance the default menu configuration appear to be intended for technically minded Linux users.
- Graphics are noticeably slower than on a modern PC, as you would expect with the CPU doing all the heavy lifting. The Raspi will be much better, given the integrated GPU.
- Had some issues when I tried doing a full install to HD from the boot CD, but again only wrinkles, which can be ironed out. Works well once I did succeed in installing to HD.
- System is quite useable, though it could use a global 'busy' indicator, showing when the machine is working in the background. Would prevent you from attempting to start a new job while it is already hard at work.
- Currently using 122MB of RAM, and 55MB of swap.

Frank.

Lance Constable Carrot
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:18 pm

In my ARM beagleboard with Ubuntu server, lxde, chromium, a console and the CodeBlocks IDE free gives this:

[email protected]:~$ free
total used free shared buffers cached
Mem: 496992 245020 251972 0 8764 126868
-/+ buffers/cache: 109388 387604
Swap: 524240 0 524240

So I'm sure 256Mb will be enough for children.

jamesh
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:23 pm

Quote from Lance Constable Carrot on October 18, 2011, 13:18
In my ARM beagleboard with Ubuntu server, lxde, chromium, a console and the CodeBlocks IDE free gives this:

[email protected]:~$ free
total used free shared buffers cached
Mem: 496992 245020 251972 0 8764 126868
-/+ buffers/cache: 109388 387604
Swap: 524240 0 524240

So I'm sure 256Mb will be enough for children.


256MB? That's even enough for REAL MEN! Like Samuel Vimes.
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WizardOfOZ
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:51 pm

Compared to home PCs running Linux, then desktops haven't really added anything beyond bloat and eye candy since the mid 90'ties or so. A Pentium 133 running X back then could do the same as a modern desktop, save for any application actually requiring current day amounts of RAM or CPU power.

If we limit ourselves to code development and text editing/typesetting, or include professional UNIX workstations, then the cutting date for no noticeable improvements to function is pushed even further back, to at least 1990. Sun X workstations running 1280x1024 monochrome on a 21" monitor, 68020 CPU @ 20 MHz with 8MB of RAM were old hat even then.

I for one intend to get, make or assemble a lightweight desktop environment on the Raspi specifically for my own personal enjoyment. Suspect I am by far not alone in having these thoughts...

kme
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:24 pm

...desktops haven't really added anything beyond bloat and eye candy since the mid 90'ties or so.I couldn't agree more. So true.

However a few things have actually appeared through time that is a sort of useful - like drag'n'drop and I have a really hard time to find a small Linux DE with this (no - XFCE is NOT light, and LXDE is on the heavy side too). In my dreams: iceWM with native icons and drag'n'drop.

nullstring
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:29 pm

I do wonder if it'd be best to have 256MB on model A and 512MB on model B.
I wonder what the price difference for these modules is.

Although you can argue that 128MB should be fine based on history, I think that in the windows 98 days of 128MB we also heavily used disk swapping, which I think is something to avoid on our SD cards.

jamesh
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:49 pm

Quote from nullstring on October 18, 2011, 15:29
I do wonder if it'd be best to have 256MB on model A and 512MB on model B.
I wonder what the price difference for these modules is.

Although you can argue that 128MB should be fine based on history, I think that in the windows 98 days of 128MB we also heavily used disk swapping, which I think is something to avoid on our SD cards.

The problem is that there are no acceptably priced 512MB POP packages available.
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WizardOfOZ
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:49 pm

Quote from kme on October 18, 2011, 15:24
However a few things have actually appeared through time that is a sort of useful - like drag'n'drop and I have a really hard time to find a small Linux DE with this (...)
ROX ? Haven't tested this myself though, please let us know how you get on. ;)

I'm 85% certain my P133 desktop in 1995/6 had at least limited support in X for Drag & Drop in some form, though I no longer recall how it was implemented. The wm was - IIRC - fvwm, but that part of X isn't responsible for doing the dragging and dropping. Amiga OS had D&D in the late eighties, though the functionality only became seriously useful once harddisks were in common use.

tufty
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:48 am

Quote from WizardOfOZ on October 18, 2011, 15:49 Amiga OS had D&D in the late eighties
Berkley Softworks' GEOS had drag and drop in 1986. On the Commodore 64, no less.

As for X support for DnD, Motif does it (badly) and has done for some time. Motif looks like shit, though. Otherwise, there's XDND which is supported by (at least) iceWM, Enlightenment and WindowMaker. If you want an environment that uses DnD pervasively under Linux, you probably want GnuStep. And yes, it runs (or at least, used to run) quite nicely in under 128M on a less-than-powerful machine (last time I ran it was Linux 2.4.mumbledy on a PowerPC G4/350 upgraded Powermac 8600 with a meagre 96MB of memory).

vladhed
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:47 pm

Quote from WizardOfOZ on October 18, 2011, 15:49
I'm 85% certain my P133 desktop in 1995/6 had at least limited support in X for Drag & Drop in some form, though I no longer recall how it was implemented. The wm was - IIRC - fvwm, but that part of X isn't responsible for doing the dragging and dropping. Amiga OS had D&D in the late eighties, though the functionality only became seriously useful once harddisks were in common use.

In 1992-ish I had a 386DX33 machine with 16M RAM running Linux 0.99 with X and TWM (Tom's Window Manager). I believe that was working even before telnet was - I remember I could rlogin to other hosts, but not telnet from the Xterm. And I could remote xterms from other UNIX machines.

This was not "limited" support for X - it was the same X11R4 server the SCO UNIX (SVR3.2 based) 386 boxes were running.

kme
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:08 pm

In 1992-ish I had a 386DX33 machine with 16M RAM running Linux 0.99 with X and TWM (Tom's Window Manager). I believe that was working even before telnet was Yeah, right. In '92 an i386DX33 was anything but new, X11R4 at least tree years old, TWM is from 1987, and telnet is from 1969. Really.

WizardOfOZ
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:55 am

Quote from vladhed on October 19, 2011, 23:47
This was not "limited" support for X - it was the same X11R4 server the SCO UNIX (SVR3.2 based) 386 boxes were running.
You may wish to read again what I actually wrote. *Closely*. ;)

I said I was 85% certain my P133 machine had limited support *for Drag and Drop* - in - X, not that it had limited support for X, which I hope you agree is ever so slightly different. :D

I specifically stated that this very machine did everything a modern desktop do, so yes, it was a 'full' X installation, complete with video playback from CD-ROM etc. (Had/have a converted copy of both Star Trek VI and Black Rain, both of which had been published a few years earlier in Philips CD-I format for the Amiga CD32 - with the full motion video MPEG hardware accelerator. Which I also have.)

And I didn't mention my UNIX clone machine before then, because it was a bit of an oddity: Amiga A-2000 with GVP 68040/33 accelerator with 16MB of RAM plus EGS/24 VGA card, running NetBSD. Didn't have X support for the EGS/24 card, so only console mode on this machine.

Prior to this I only had access to UNIX machines at the university, not at home.

Edit: It could probably be argued that calling even the P133 a modern desktop equivalent may have been a bit of a stretch, as it could only do video playback in the native resolution of the video stream from CD (PAL). Neither CPU and certainly not the graphics card had the horsepower to scale the video up to full screen resolution (which at the time was limited by the monitor more than the graphics card).

daveshah
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:54 pm

About 4 years ago, I was running full Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Win2k/WinXP (I couldn't dualboot because my harddrive only had 10gigs of space, so had various installs at different times) at a very good speed doing stuff like browsing the web, doing my homework, simulating circuits with ktechlab and using my oscilloscope (that's all I use the computer for now, because it is the only one I own with a parallel port.)
This computer had a PIII at 600MHz and 256MB of RAM, so the Rasberry Pi beats it at CPU. The only limitation I ran into was hard drive space :D - at that time Ubuntu was a lot lighter.

At the time, I also had cheap Vista laptop with a 1.something GHz Celeron and 1GB of RAM, which ran a lot slower and was nowhere near as good.

obarthelemy
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:27 pm

This seems eerily relevant: http://developers.slashdot.org.....aller-than
at 39,731 bytes, the entire Turbo Pascal 3.02 executable (compiler and IDE) makes it less than 1/4th the size of the image of the white iPhone 4S at apple.com
Visicalc, the granddaddy of all spreadsheet software which celebrated its 32nd birthday this year, weighed in at a mere 29K

subminiature
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:05 pm

More RAM is critical - the board is hugely flexible and storage can easily be off loaded but fast RAM can not be.

jamesh
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:10 pm

Quote from subminiature on November 2, 2011, 20:05
More RAM is critical - the board is hugely flexible and storage can easily be off loaded but fast RAM can not be.

It cannot be critical and impossible. One has to give way!

(There is no PoP package > 256MB at a affordable price point. Yet)
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abishur
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:58 pm

Wit that I'm going to go ahead and close this thread. We can rest assured that as PoP ram becomes more and more affordable the r-pi will begin to implement larger ram packages. Until then we'll either have to adapt or use a different product ;)
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

obarthelemy
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Re: [Request] Please add some more Ram, they are really cheap right now.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:12 pm

Any hint what the extra cost for 512 MB would be ? I'm wondering if a quite a few crazy geeks wouldn't be willing to pay up to $50 for a 512 MB Pi. Unless I'm mistaken it would be almost 0 extra work for you(no board changes), and you could make it part of a lopsided BOGO exclusive, buy one 512, give one A or B deal ?

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