technix
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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:28 am

mahjongg wrote:don't think a card detect signal makes any sense, a PI can't boot without a card, and after it has booted it cannot practically speaking be removed. Also, before booting there is no code running that can sense the detect signal.
From my personal experience that removing the SD card during operation properly is possible, as long as you figured out a way to keep it from being used. I pulled off a SD hot swapping after I moved my Raspbian installation to external USB hard drive, in order to use an old 256MB SD card on that headless Pi.

aki009
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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:36 pm

jamesh wrote:
MrBool wrote:I am interested in the electrical schematic. I can't find it. Thank you.
Although it will be made available, it hasn't been published yet. Sorry.

Have you got a specific question that could be answered here?
So it is now 6 months later. Can we now finally have the full schematics?

It's starting to feel like not producing them is because you want to hide the ball. I'm probably not the only one who thinks that this will raise more questions.

Andrei
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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:22 am

It is very strange that there’s still no full B+ schematics available. It goes against open source methodology. Are you planning to release full Raspberry Pi 2 schematics?

jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:02 am

There are no plans at the moment to release the schematics.

Note the Pi has never been an open source HW project, although the schematics for B and some mods for B+ are available.
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toweroff
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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:03 am

Hi
can anyone suggest component values - L4 - L6, Q2, Q5 and U8 for a Pi B+ 1.2 board?

Thanks

malinaPi
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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:51 am

jamesh wrote:There are no plans at the moment to release the schematics.

Note the Pi has never been an open source HW project, although the schematics for B and some mods for B+ are available.
WHAT! I knew that some components on the Raspberry Pi were proprietary, but the "Foundation"'s hardware? What a cheap ploy to mislead people into thinking you have amiable intentions; your company's :mrgreen: name is a misnomer, but you obviously have smart lawyers. Onto the next thing that's actually providing the populous with unchained, non-proprietary solutions and technology. I wish you had started off trying to build a $40 computer running Windows, at least then I'd have never considered this an option even if you had been successful.

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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:19 am

malinaPi wrote:
jamesh wrote:There are no plans at the moment to release the schematics.

Note the Pi has never been an open source HW project, although the schematics for B and some mods for B+ are available.
WHAT! I knew that some components on the Raspberry Pi were proprietary, but the "Foundation"'s hardware? What a cheap ploy to mislead people into thinking you have amiable intentions; your company's :mrgreen: name is a misnomer, but you obviously have smart lawyers. Onto the next thing that's actually providing the populous with unchained, non-proprietary solutions and technology. I wish you had started off trying to build a $40 computer running Windows, at least then I'd have never considered this an option even if you had been successful.
Say, what? When did the RPF *ever* promise "open hardware", and what difference would it make? You can't source the critical parts, and if you could, you couldn't build the boards for what you can buy them for. The Pi is open enough for all practical purposes, the OS *is* open source, and more of the proprietary firmware is being opened up over time, either directly or though more interface information.

Don't make perfect the enemy of pretty darned good.

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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:57 am

malinaPi wrote:
jamesh wrote:There are no plans at the moment to release the schematics.

Note the Pi has never been an open source HW project, although the schematics for B and some mods for B+ are available.
WHAT! I knew that some components on the Raspberry Pi were proprietary, but the "Foundation"'s hardware? What a cheap ploy to mislead people into thinking you have amiable intentions; your company's :mrgreen: name is a misnomer, but you obviously have smart lawyers. Onto the next thing that's actually providing the populous with unchained, non-proprietary solutions and technology. I wish you had started off trying to build a $40 computer running Windows, at least then I'd have never considered this an option even if you had been successful.
Er, what?

The Raspberry Pi name is a misnomer? In what way? It's just a name! (which doesn't contain the words Open Source HW at all, and never has)

As for the proprietary HW, well, yes, of course, its was designed by the Foundation, so its their proprietary HW. So the schematics are not available (at the moment). However, all the GPIO's and HW connectors are fully documented, so I am not sure what the problem is.

Good luck finding an OS HW platform that has the same level of reliability, support and market penetration as the Pi. It's going to be a long search.

Or you can just accept that the schematic isn't available, and use it anyway. That's what I would do, because, you know, sometimes the pragmatic approach is the best one.

You cannot build a $40 device running desktop windows, the HW and licence requirements are too onerous.
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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:17 pm

jamesh wrote:There are no plans at the moment to release the schematics.

Note the Pi has never been an open source HW project, although the schematics for B and some mods for B+ are available.
Jamesh, at the start of this very thread you stated "Although it will be made available, it hasn't been published yet. Sorry.".

As full schematics for previous versions had been published, and along with comments such as your own, many of us had expected that it was just a metter of time.

Frankly I think you should have just explained politely from the outset that you have no intention of publishing the schematics.

That way the community would know how things stand and start up a reverse engineering project, as they do with any other closed source hardware.

Your attitude of 'it's no use to you anyway, if you have a question just ask us' appears to be somewhat pretentious.

Cheers.

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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:27 pm

Bellisarius wrote:Your attitude of 'it's no use to you anyway, if you have a question just ask us' appears to be somewhat pretentious.
OK. Humour us. What possible advantage does having the schematics give to any end-user when everything they need to know about interfacing with the Pi from the outside world is already in the public domain?
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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:29 pm

Bellisarius wrote:
Your attitude of 'it's no use to you anyway, if you have a question just ask us' appears to be somewhat pretentious.

Cheers.
James isn't the one with the bad attitude problem. Maybe you'll stay long enough to find out how this community and the Foundation work, but somehow I doubt it.

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Bellisarius
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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:25 pm

GTR2Fan wrote:What possible advantage does having the schematics give to any end-user
Well as the device is primarily targetting students, the obvious answer would be to see how it all works and try to understand it :D

Another answer (with some credit to L.Torvalds) would be 'So we can fix the errors' :D

But that's not my answer. I'm not an end user either. I develop commercial products. My company does not publish schematics. I've got nothing against the RPi foundation if they don't want to publish them.

It's common in the electronics world for manufacturers and consortiums to produce reference designs as a starting point for developers who are wanting to make something similar.

There are also open source platforms (notably the Arduino, but there are are others) where it is common practice to publish designs so others can use them as a reference design.

RPi is a registered charity, a not for profit organisation. That is perhaps why some people, myself included, assumed that this is an open platform. Perhaps this is mixed up, after all, commercial SoC manufacturers generally DO publish reference designs and sell modules. Nonrtheless, It's difficult to understand why a non-profit want's to keep trade secrets, but I'm sure you have your reasons.

However, given the potential for confusion (clearly many of us are), perhaps it would be better to come clean about this and state clearly that the Pi is NOT an open platform.

And if you do want to keep it closed then you certainly should NOT say that schematics will be published (as was stated at the start of this thread).

And finally, as a point of interest, what does the Pi foundation think about commercial use of it's products? Is it welcome?

Cheers.

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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:29 pm

PeterO wrote:
Bellisarius wrote:
Your attitude of 'it's no use to you anyway, if you have a question just ask us' appears to be somewhat pretentious.

Cheers.
James isn't the one with the bad attitude problem. Maybe you'll stay long enough to find out how this community and the Foundation work, but somehow I doubt it.

PeterO
As noted schematics are not so useful for building your own Pi because the parts are not available. However, schematics are more often used to learn how something works: this can either be for pure education and curiosity of because hardware and software modifications are required for a particular project. As it is was impossible to predict all the uses for the Pi until it was available, it is likewise impossible to predict the uses for the B+ schematic.

For the record, I too had expected this schematic to eventually be available. While it is likely there aren't many people, especially children, who have the literacy skills to read and understand such a schematic. As far as I understand, one of the goals of the foundation is to increase such literacy. Providing schematics makes material available for the few who know to teach the many who don't.

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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:36 pm

It is hard to understand this continuing interest (demands ?) in the schematics when there already exists hundreds of projects that have made successful interfaces to the PI with the information that is already available.
PeterO
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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:37 pm

Bellisarius wrote:as a point of interest, what does the Pi foundation think about commercial use of it's products? Is it welcome?
Yes. As long as you follow their trademark rules.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/trademark-rules/

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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:43 pm

PeterO wrote:
James isn't the one with the bad attitude problem.
PeterO
I wouldn't call it a bad attitude, but it is strange.

Your right though, I think I'm in the wrong place...Beagle Board is perhaps more appropriate for me, I thought Pi was similar but even cheaper. But that cheapness has it's cost!

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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:10 pm

I think it's a small fraction of a percent of people who are interested in the Raspberry Pi that actually feel that they need schematics.
It's not like it's a huge job to reverse engineer if you have the capabilities, HardKernel managed to do it, so there are no secrets.
But the RPF is a charity/NFP and there is no automatic assumption that because an organisation is charitable then it must be open source. Open source is an ideal that matters to a few people but sometimes the real world and hard pragmatism has to take priority over dreamy, quixotic idealism.

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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:25 pm

for educational purposes the available schematics are quite enough, its not as if the schematics of later models are fundamentally different from the first ones. its just a different SoC (black box) anyway.
any changes are mostly inside the SoC, and perhaps how the SDRAM is connected to it, not interesting for education.
The educational aspects are about Programming it, or how to interface to it, using the fully documented GPIO header.
I do expect the full B+ schematic to be released, when doing so does not impair the economic advantages of not releasing them anymore.
As said may times before from the very beginning the PI is NOT an open hardware design! It has never has been, anyone telling any different is deluding himself, perhaps because of wishful thinking.

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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:27 pm

Bellisarius wrote:
PeterO wrote:
James isn't the one with the bad attitude problem.
PeterO
I wouldn't call it a bad attitude, but it is strange.
no its not strange at all, probably the lawyers of Farnell and RS are preventing the release of the full schematics.

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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:05 pm

Pithagoros wrote:I think it's a small fraction of a percent of people who are interested in the Raspberry Pi that actually feel that they need schematics.
It's not like it's a huge job to reverse engineer if you have the capabilities, HardKernel managed to do it, so there are no secrets.
But the RPF is a charity/NFP and there is no automatic assumption that because an organisation is charitable then it must be open source. Open source is an ideal that matters to a few people but sometimes the real world and hard pragmatism has to take priority over dreamy, quixotic idealism.
Hi Pithagoros,

There would be thousands of electrical/electronics engineers making up part of the Raspberry Pi community. To an engineer, the language of hardware is the schematics. Thousands of confusing posts are not a suitable substitute. It's more like misinformation.

I don't think reverse engineering is really a problem. People will do this regardless of the schematics being available. Not releasing the schematics would only slow the process a couple of months.

RPF is a charity, but their goal was to educate the children. Software is only one half of a computer, we need hardware engineers as well as software engineers. Both are equally very important. I think the RPF is missing a great opportunity.

But I do respect that the RPF has the right to make their own policies, if I like them or not.

regards
Greg
* Raspberry Pi is a trademark of the Raspberry Pi Foundation

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PeterO
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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:14 pm

Greg Erskine wrote: There would be thousands of electrical/electronics engineers making up part of the Raspberry Pi community. To an engineer, the language of hardware is the schematics.
Greg
An engineer knows that all he needs is the interface specification. What is on the other side of the GPIO pin is of little interest.
PeterO
Last edited by PeterO on Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ejolson
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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:15 pm

mahjongg wrote:for educational purposes the available schematics are quite enough, its not as if the schematics of later models are fundamentally different from the first ones. its just a SoC (black box) anyway.
any changes are mostly inside the SoC, and perhaps how the SDRAM is connected to it, not interesting for education.
The educational aspects are about Programming it, or how to interface to it, using the fully documented GPIO header.
Compared to industrial uses, educational uses are more flexible and open ended because they are not constrained by profit. Consider the following school assignment:

Compare the schematic of the original model B with the schematic of the B+. Summarize the differences in design. Make an analysis why the changes were made and how those changes impact power consumption, functionality, reliability and cost. Think of a possible design change that wasn't made and explain the advantages and disadvantages of making that change in a future model.

Pithagoros
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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:23 pm

Greg Erskine wrote:
Pithagoros wrote: There would be thousands of electrical/electronics engineers making up part of the Raspberry Pi community. To an engineer, the language of hardware is the schematics. Thousands of confusing posts are not a suitable substitute. It's more like misinformation.

RPF is a charity, but their goal was to educate the children. Software is only one half of a computer, we need hardware engineers as well as software engineers. Both are equally very important. I think the RPF is missing a great opportunity.

But I do respect that the RPF has the right to make their own policies, if I like them or not.

regards
Greg
OK. Fill yer boots: https://www.raspberrypi.org/wp-content/ ... herals.pdf

jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:23 pm

Greg Erskine wrote:
Pithagoros wrote:I think it's a small fraction of a percent of people who are interested in the Raspberry Pi that actually feel that they need schematics.
It's not like it's a huge job to reverse engineer if you have the capabilities, HardKernel managed to do it, so there are no secrets.
But the RPF is a charity/NFP and there is no automatic assumption that because an organisation is charitable then it must be open source. Open source is an ideal that matters to a few people but sometimes the real world and hard pragmatism has to take priority over dreamy, quixotic idealism.
Hi Pithagoros,

There would be thousands of electrical/electronics engineers making up part of the Raspberry Pi community. To an engineer, the language of hardware is the schematics. Thousands of confusing posts are not a suitable substitute. It's more like misinformation.

I don't think reverse engineering is really a problem. People will do this regardless of the schematics being available. Not releasing the schematics would only slow the process a couple of months.

RPF is a charity, but their goal was to educate the children. Software is only one half of a computer, we need hardware engineers as well as software engineers. Both are equally very important. I think the RPF is missing a great opportunity.

But I do respect that the RPF has the right to make their own policies, if I like them or not.

regards
Greg
I can certainly see why some people might want schematics, but as others have said, I don't really see why they would NEED the schematics, since everything that can be plugged in is already covered by the GPIO specs. For teaching computer science, the Pi is a perfectly fine platform, for teaching electronics, there are clearly other more suitable boards (Arduino). So I disagree with the 50:50 split mentioned above, software isn't one half of a computer. I see it more like 99.9:0.1 in favour of software, simply because of the time involved to produce a) The HW, about 10 man years vs b) The software, many many many many time more than that (actual figures I cannot find, but is 10 of billions of $ of development effort)
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rpdom
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Re: Raspberry Pi B+ schematic

Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:24 pm

ejolson wrote:Compared to industrial uses, educational uses are more flexible and open ended because they are not constrained by profit. Consider the following school assignment:

Compare the schematic of the original model B with the schematic of the B+. Summarize the differences in design. Make an analysis why the changes were made and how those changes impact power consumption, functionality, reliability and cost. Think of a possible design change that wasn't made and explain the advantages and disadvantages of making that change in a future model.
That sounds like a very contrived example. It has nothing to do with the use of the Pi which is what the real educational value of it is.

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