jran1216
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Maths and computers

Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:43 pm

OK so I just bought my Mathematics dictionary after starting to learn numbers. My thoughts where that if we can store lists then we can atleast store usefull numbers.
Now Ive got stuck on differentiation for a while now. Whilst inbetween buying the book and walking home I slowly began to realise that I should consider it as a whole and this may not surprise you, realised it was finding the gradient of a point on a line in the y axis :oops: . Still this is not the full explanation and can for now only speculate that the value in powers gets diminished by one as x is the horizontal and therefore to remove a power you need to spread the same direction (not fully complete). Basicly it is finding another language from a summarisation to a point to to point language.
However my point is that Maths becomes more vague in computing rather than working the other way. We have to find simple abstractions that wont always work. My problem is I'm stuck.
To compute a difference in python we could use a subtraction if numbers are specified. Suppose they're not. How would we display a difference and propperly use the equation. Could it be a combination of logic and numbers, I want to say strings but I know that they're are only recognised mathematically really.
Is there a way to make a computer recognise strings mathematically in a command like way without specifying numbers?

Anyway is anyone else thinking about inputting equations using simpler equations, anyone think this is barmy and unacomplishable. If so why? And what problems can you speculate. Does further maths become more vague? If we shut the abstractions off then why is it a summarisation of a whole in mechanisms forming it? etc. etc.

Thanks

ame
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Re: Maths and computers

Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:51 pm

I hear Wolfram Alpha is available on the Pi.

jran1216
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Re: Maths and computers

Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:09 pm

I can only dream of a Kernel like that.
Seriously though its not open source meaning for people to make sense of it, equations still need to be computed and available via open source. On a plus not though this needs to be looked at mechanically. Oh where are the systems engineers?!

Ill defos look Wolfram up. Could be cool.

jran1216
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Re: Maths and computers

Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:30 pm

I think if we just hack into the storage of a motherboard and store probabilities rather than numbers it might be possible. I know that not precisely true because machines have to run 1's and 0's but say we where to store an empty one, or rather use an empty one but the things that store actual numbers in computing still read that electrical component then surely the addition and subtraction could be stored without numbers. it must be able to be done otherwise how would python be able to subtract and add?

ame
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Re: Maths and computers

Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:37 pm

jran1216 wrote:I think if we just hack into the storage of a motherboard and store probabilities rather than numbers it might be possible. I know that not precisely true because machines have to run 1's and 0's but say we where to store an empty one, or rather use an empty one but the things that store actual numbers in computing still read that electrical component then surely the addition and subtraction could be stored without numbers. it must be able to be done otherwise how would python be able to subtract and add?
Cool story, bro'.

Ravenous
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Re: Maths and computers

Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:29 pm

jran1216 wrote:Anyway is anyone else thinking about inputting equations using simpler equations, anyone think this is barmy and unacomplishable.
Is the following any use to you? ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_approximation
(See also taylor series, power series)

I'm not sure what you need, but I think you might want to build a polynomial approximation to a more complex function, or something like that...

jran1216
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Re: Maths and computers

Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:01 pm

Just figured out difference in python. (Well kinda)

Code: Select all

def difference(n, n1):
             for x in range(0, n - n1)
                          print(x)
greeting(5, 2)
Prints 0,1,2 . Which is kinda it.


Anyway I cant really say more just incase im wrong, but this is quite cool because you can define more inputs than one into a function.

Algebraically at least this could be quite cool.

Cheers ravenous I'll give it a read.

jran1216
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Re: Maths and computers

Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:02 pm

whoops wrong last line:

Code: Select all

def difference(n, n1):
             for x in range(0, n - n1)
                          print(x)
difference(5, 2)

jran1216
Posts: 87
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Re: Maths and computers

Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:36 pm

Thats great, thats positional right?

So the first part calculates the gradient and second finds its position?
Thats just from the definition.

And pythons positional right so it should atleast be able to create a graph? Not what I was hoping for but really your spot on. If I'm right that is. But surely from this you are creating the tangent first? If you're trying to plug numbers into a machine that is.

Heater
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Re: Maths and computers

Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:37 pm

jran1216,
Now Ive got stuck on differentiation for a while now
Yep. It's tricky.

At some point you have to get the idea that differentiation is a way of dividing zero by zero and getting a meaningful result. It's brilliant. Which is why it took a Newton and a Leibnitz to think of it after the human race had been thinking about numbers for millenia.

As for the computers and numbers thing. Think about this: In any normal high level programming language you can write expressions like "x = y + z". The language compiler will translate that into code that does what you want. Notice how there are no actual numbers in there!

At a higher level people have written symbolic equation solving systems.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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DaveDriesen
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Re: Maths and computers

Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:57 pm

OK so I just bought my Mathematics dictionary after starting to learn numbers. My thoughts where that if we can store lists then we can atleast store usefull numbers.
Maybe you can also find a use for a normal dictionary seeing as you lost me at "usefull".. :O

Dave Driesen
Linux Dev and Oldskool Elite

jran1216
Posts: 87
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Re: Maths and computers

Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:05 pm

Do you know the time it would take to replenish my english? Not complaining though, I can think.

And basically differentiation made it possible to get the true meaning of values in relationships. If you keep differentiating it. The guy must have thought a lot and realised maybe everything is the same. But in reality a lot of relationships. Anyway I said a while back its because powers all exist around one, inline with the origin of maths being a collection of one. And im still adamant thats true.

Liamthe1st
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Re: Maths and computers

Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:34 pm

:oops: enigma was a problem for Bletchley Park in world War 2.
Alum Turin was a math and Physics person how did they solve the Enigma ?
Dit Dah Dit Dah Dit

jran1216
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Re: Maths and computers

Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:51 pm

The weather wasn't it.

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jackokring
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Re: Maths and computers

Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:53 pm

Mathematics never becomes vague. It can be used to make estimates, but this is not vague, as the exact nature of the error in the estimate is part of the maths. Pade approximation is an interesting area of maths. :D :D

The use of binary to represent maths without number using formal symbolic maths is very possible. This is part of maths known as representation theory, followed by the applied creation of an isomorphic symbol representation.

It is true that further maths can seem overly complicated, but this is not the a problem with the maths, but is a problem with representing abstract ideas in a simple enough way while still having a consistent maths meaning.

In some ways, group theory is the simplest form of maths without numbers. And if the concept of a number is abstracted, strange number forms can be made. Some interesting work by Godel was done on computing maths proofs, but it can be quite difficult to understand the complete work.

Don't give up on maths, it has an advanced logic in it's representation. Understanding it helps with understanding many things.
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jran1216
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:45 pm

Re: Maths and computers

Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:25 pm

Yup its that step closer, to, the inner workings of a brain. The world is numbers and the workings are signs. We give signals right, its a move forward. A computer just works but what passes through it and what is interacted with.

That being said theres a right and a left side of an equation so the logic comes from external and the right side is its creation. What are we really doing. Summing things up, but really we are explaining things to ourselves. And thats whats so amazing about maths. And thats why maths should be in computing.

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AndrewS
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Re: Maths and computers

Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:40 am

jran1216 wrote:And thats whats so amazing about maths. And thats why maths should be in computing.
http://computerbasedmath.org/

http://www.raspberrypi.org/documentatio ... /README.md

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