ioudas
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Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:59 pm

Hi All,

I have several pi's that all have several major issues. Freezing, usb key stroke repeating, hdmi dvi resetting, transfers to the pi dropping over wired/wireless ssh drop outs. All products have been directly purchased on adafruit. I would like to know about the warranty/refund policy for pi's. I have tried multiple different power blocks, powered hubs etc.

When i remove wifi devices the pi will freeze and lock up permanently until a forced power reset is started, etc.

I imagine there is no refund policy directly from the pi foundation for these boards?

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joan
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:19 pm

I don't know about the law in the USA. In the UK the contract is with the vendor (in your case Adafruit). So in the UK the vendor has to sort out problems (however much they might try to deny responsibility).

jamesh
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:39 pm

Indeed - your contract is with the person who sold it to you, not with the Foundation.

However, if you are seeing the problem with multiple Pi's is almost certainly something you are doing rather than faults on the Raspi's themselves. You might infrequently get a problem with one, but multiple failed Pi's is very very unlikely.

So what are the exact symptoms, since the ones you quote almost certainly indicate a power supply problem, but you say you have tried multiple power supplies. Did you try multiple USB cables as well? Some of those can be dreadful.

Also, make sure you have the very latest firmware with all the USB fixes.
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ioudas
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:14 pm

jamesh wrote:Indeed - your contract is with the person who sold it to you, not with the Foundation.

However, if you are seeing the problem with multiple Pi's is almost certainly something you are doing rather than faults on the Raspi's themselves. You might infrequently get a problem with one, but multiple failed Pi's is very very unlikely.

So what are the exact symptoms, since the ones you quote almost certainly indicate a power supply problem, but you say you have tried multiple power supplies. Did you try multiple USB cables as well? Some of those can be dreadful.

Also, make sure you have the very latest firmware with all the USB fixes.
Good to know, I was just wondering if the foundation would honor it. I figured this was not the case. In my opinion the power design of the pi is entirely flawed from several angles. As our vendor will most likely not refund us directly and I have no recourse under american law, it sounds like we will have to eat the cost of the 7 pi's. We have only owned 7 different pi's < 1 month total. Lesson learned.

All 7 have the same issues, the issues are common even with the latest kernel 10.36 etc. The issues can be found on all over the internet and in the PI forums here. It is most certainly a design issue entirely.

I have tried with no usb cables, directly wired in ethernet. Multiple power blocks, At this point on 7 separate pi's I can simply hang a pi by disconnecting a wireless device every time.

jdb
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:27 pm

Why is the design flawed?
Rockets are loud.
https://astro-pi.org

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GTR2Fan
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:28 pm

ioudas wrote:In my opinion the power design of the pi is entirely flawed from several angles.
In what way? It relies on being fed a supply voltage that lies within the limits specified for USB 2.0 compliancy (5V +/-0.25V). The fact that many USB PSUs and chargers rated at or above the Pi's current requirements don't do this is surely not to be blamed on the design of the Pi... or are you talking about some other aspect?
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:48 pm

ioudas wrote:
jamesh wrote:Indeed - your contract is with the person who sold it to you, not with the Foundation.

However, if you are seeing the problem with multiple Pi's is almost certainly something you are doing rather than faults on the Raspi's themselves. You might infrequently get a problem with one, but multiple failed Pi's is very very unlikely.

So what are the exact symptoms, since the ones you quote almost certainly indicate a power supply problem, but you say you have tried multiple power supplies. Did you try multiple USB cables as well? Some of those can be dreadful.

Also, make sure you have the very latest firmware with all the USB fixes.
Good to know, I was just wondering if the foundation would honor it. I figured this was not the case. In my opinion the power design of the pi is entirely flawed from several angles. As our vendor will most likely not refund us directly and I have no recourse under american law, it sounds like we will have to eat the cost of the 7 pi's. We have only owned 7 different pi's < 1 month total. Lesson learned.

All 7 have the same issues, the issues are common even with the latest kernel 10.36 etc. The issues can be found on all over the internet and in the PI forums here. It is most certainly a design issue entirely.

I have tried with no usb cables, directly wired in ethernet. Multiple power blocks, At this point on 7 separate pi's I can simply hang a pi by disconnecting a wireless device every time.
There is no way the Foundation (or anyone else on the planet) will offer money back on something they didn't sell - they get a small licence fee for each device, no the entire price, so the economics certainly don't add up there.

By disconnect do you mean remove a wireless dongle? Why do you need to do that? I'm guessing its spiking the power somehow and causing a crash. Have you tied a different wireless dongle? Does the device work fine until you disconnect? Does the dongle work in a desktop when you do the same thing? Why does your use case require disconnection of the dongle whilst in use?

As for 7 Pi's, there is no chance in hell they are all faulty, so clearly something you are doing. The power design is fine btw, as shown by the 2.5M out there that are working. So, is the only fault you are seeing the freeze on disconnect?

I checked all over the internet for this issue, got mostly porn.
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Joe Schmoe
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:17 pm

jdb wrote:Why is the design flawed?
To whom are you addressing this question? Surely, the OP can't know. It's like asking why are oranges orange. But maybe JamesH (or someone else at the Foundation) might know…
jamesh wrote:I checked all over the internet for this issue, got mostly porn.
Lucky you!
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:24 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote:
To whom are you addressing this question? Surely, the OP can't know. It's like asking why are oranges orange. But maybe JamesH (or someone else at the Foundation) might know…
ioudas wrote: In my opinion the power design of the pi is entirely flawed from several angles.
The OP - who made the claim. I am asking that they substantiate their claims.
Rockets are loud.
https://astro-pi.org

Joe Schmoe
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:26 pm

The OP - who made the claim. I am asking that they substantiate their claims.
The OP can't possibly know *why* it is broken. Only that it is.

They could, of course, be wrong in their assertion that it is broken.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

ioudas
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:38 pm

jamesh wrote:
ioudas wrote:
jamesh wrote:Indeed - your contract is with the person who sold it to you, not with the Foundation.

However, if you are seeing the problem with multiple Pi's is almost certainly something you are doing rather than faults on the Raspi's themselves. You might infrequently get a problem with one, but multiple failed Pi's is very very unlikely.

So what are the exact symptoms, since the ones you quote almost certainly indicate a power supply problem, but you say you have tried multiple power supplies. Did you try multiple USB cables as well? Some of those can be dreadful.

Also, make sure you have the very latest firmware with all the USB fixes.
Good to know, I was just wondering if the foundation would honor it. I figured this was not the case. In my opinion the power design of the pi is entirely flawed from several angles. As our vendor will most likely not refund us directly and I have no recourse under american law, it sounds like we will have to eat the cost of the 7 pi's. We have only owned 7 different pi's < 1 month total. Lesson learned.

All 7 have the same issues, the issues are common even with the latest kernel 10.36 etc. The issues can be found on all over the internet and in the PI forums here. It is most certainly a design issue entirely.

I have tried with no usb cables, directly wired in ethernet. Multiple power blocks, At this point on 7 separate pi's I can simply hang a pi by disconnecting a wireless device every time.
There is no way the Foundation (or anyone else on the planet) will offer money back on something they didn't sell - they get a small licence fee for each device, no the entire price, so the economics certainly don't add up there.

By disconnect do you mean remove a wireless dongle? Why do you need to do that? I'm guessing its spiking the power somehow and causing a crash. Have you tied a different wireless dongle? Does the device work fine until you disconnect? Does the dongle work in a desktop when you do the same thing? Why does your use case require disconnection of the dongle whilst in use?

As for 7 Pi's, there is no chance in hell they are all faulty, so clearly something you are doing. The power design is fine btw, as shown by the 2.5M out there that are working. So, is the only fault you are seeing the freeze on disconnect?

I checked all over the internet for this issue, got mostly porn.
James, i figured this was the case.

Thanks for confirmation. While i disagree with your assertion its good to know there is no way that this can be returned. Like I said, lesson learned.

Thanks for your time.

-Greg

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Jessie
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:21 pm

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein
So you bought 7 pi and didn't suspect one of your perephreals was suspect? Power supply, SD card, usb plugged stuff?

Most American retailers will take it back and charge you a 25% restocking fee. But if they refuse just call your credit card company (most of the time they will just have you call Visa or MC) fill out the proper form and they will get your money back.

I see where your comming from on the power but its been over a year since I had a power issue other than high draw devices causing brown out conditions. Are there design choices that would have mitigated this? Yes, but then the device would have launched at higher than $35.

There are people here that would like to help you get your Pi working (assuming your expectations are in check). But I get the feeling you are just here to stir up drama.

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blachanc
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:34 pm

To the OP:
If you live in north America:
If they are model B and they all boot, I would be willing to give you $125 for the lot.

Ben
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http://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=70191

ioudas
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:58 pm

Jessie wrote:
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein
So you bought 7 pi and didn't suspect one of your perephreals was suspect? Power supply, SD card, usb plugged stuff?

Most American retailers will take it back and charge you a 25% restocking fee. But if they refuse just call your credit card company (most of the time they will just have you call Visa or MC) fill out the proper form and they will get your money back.

I see where your comming from on the power but its been over a year since I had a power issue other than high draw devices causing brown out conditions. Are there design choices that would have mitigated this? Yes, but then the device would have launched at higher than $35.

There are people here that would like to help you get your Pi working (assuming your expectations are in check). But I get the feeling you are just here to stir up drama.
This kind of attitude is frankly unacceptable.

Best of luck.

-Greg

ioudas
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:59 pm

blachanc wrote:To the OP:
If you live in north America:
If they are model B and they all boot, I would be willing to give you $125 for the lot.

Ben
Ben, I will talk to the company and let you know once we decide where we are going.

Thanks.

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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:03 pm

ioudas wrote:
jamesh wrote:
ioudas wrote:
Good to know, I was just wondering if the foundation would honor it. I figured this was not the case. In my opinion the power design of the pi is entirely flawed from several angles. As our vendor will most likely not refund us directly and I have no recourse under american law, it sounds like we will have to eat the cost of the 7 pi's. We have only owned 7 different pi's < 1 month total. Lesson learned.

All 7 have the same issues, the issues are common even with the latest kernel 10.36 etc. The issues can be found on all over the internet and in the PI forums here. It is most certainly a design issue entirely.

I have tried with no usb cables, directly wired in ethernet. Multiple power blocks, At this point on 7 separate pi's I can simply hang a pi by disconnecting a wireless device every time.
There is no way the Foundation (or anyone else on the planet) will offer money back on something they didn't sell - they get a small licence fee for each device, no the entire price, so the economics certainly don't add up there.

By disconnect do you mean remove a wireless dongle? Why do you need to do that? I'm guessing its spiking the power somehow and causing a crash. Have you tied a different wireless dongle? Does the device work fine until you disconnect? Does the dongle work in a desktop when you do the same thing? Why does your use case require disconnection of the dongle whilst in use?

As for 7 Pi's, there is no chance in hell they are all faulty, so clearly something you are doing. The power design is fine btw, as shown by the 2.5M out there that are working. So, is the only fault you are seeing the freeze on disconnect?

I checked all over the internet for this issue, got mostly porn.
James, i figured this was the case.

Thanks for confirmation. While i disagree with your assertion its good to know there is no way that this can be returned. Like I said, lesson learned.

Thanks for your time.

-Greg
I would have thought there was every chance of them being returned, but to return something means to send it back where it came from, not some one completely different. You need to contact adafruit, or take advantage of the offer above.
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ioudas
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:09 pm

James, adafruit has a 14 day policy, sadly and we have tried that route. I would. We most likely will take you up on your offer Ben.

-Greg

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blachanc
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:22 pm

ioudas wrote:James, adafruit has a 14 day policy, sadly and we have tried that route. I would. We most likely will take you up on your offer Ben.

-Greg
Hi Greg,

I will send you a PM.
I assume we can use PayPal......

Ben
Autism/Asperger syndrome: what is your score on this quiz?
http://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=70191

ioudas
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:57 pm

blachanc wrote:
ioudas wrote:James, adafruit has a 14 day policy, sadly and we have tried that route. I would. We most likely will take you up on your offer Ben.

-Greg
Hi Greg,

I will send you a PM.
I assume we can use PayPal......

Ben
Yes, i will know about our direction this tuesday.

-Greg

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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:58 pm

At the risk of sounding pedantic, could you answer my original question:

Why is the design flawed?

While it may not help you in particular, user feedback is important in discerning what, if any, bugs exist in the design.
Rockets are loud.
https://astro-pi.org

ioudas
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:01 pm

jdb wrote:At the risk of sounding pedantic, could you answer my original question:

Why is the design flawed?

While it may not help you in particular, user feedback is important in discerning what, if any, bugs exist in the design.
jdb,

I am not entirely comfortable based on my experience on the forums saying that out loud here. If you like I can send you a typed up email/message of my findings and discuss further with you if you desire.

I would be comfortable doing that.

-Greg

jdb
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:09 pm

Ordinarily I would say that if you make the claim in public, then back it up it in public.

However, if you would prefer to keep it off forum postings then feel free to PM me.
Rockets are loud.
https://astro-pi.org

jamesh
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:53 pm

I'm quite interested in knowing the specific problem being seen, because it's still unclear. If there was a serious problem with the design, I'm sure we would have heard about it since wireless adapters are used extensively. I use one all the time, never have a problem, so it must be this specific use case, so would be interested in the actual process that causes the issue. Is it as simple as just removing the wireless adapter whilst the device is powered up causing the lockup?
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:09 am

I can add my experience:
jamesh wrote: By disconnect do you mean remove a wireless dongle?
Connecting/wiggling (not removing) a wireless dongle cause a crash (reboot).
Dongles used are standard and mini Digitech brand.
jamesh wrote: I'm guessing its spiking the power somehow and causing a crash. Have you tied a different wireless dongle?
Several of the same brand. Only two different models of the same brand. A blue tooth dongle of the same brand does not cause a crash.
jamesh wrote: Does the device work fine until you disconnect?
The devices all work fine.
jamesh wrote: Does the dongle work in a desktop when you do the same thing?
The crashing problem does NOT occur in either desktop or laptop. It also does NOT occur when using the wireless dongle in a usb hub (not powered) that is connected to the pi
jamesh wrote:Why does your use case require disconnection of the dongle whilst in use?
There are plenty of occurrences when there is a need to remove the dongle. If you don't have a hub and only two usb ports.
The pi's are also connected to robots where kids are constantly picking them up a moving the dongle enough to cause a reboot.

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Jessie
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Re: Locking issues/Refund.

Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:48 am

ioudas wrote:
Jessie wrote:
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein
So you bought 7 pi and didn't suspect one of your perephreals was suspect? Power supply, SD card, usb plugged stuff?

Most American retailers will take it back and charge you a 25% restocking fee. But if they refuse just call your credit card company (most of the time they will just have you call Visa or MC) fill out the proper form and they will get your money back.

I see where your comming from on the power but its been over a year since I had a power issue other than high draw devices causing brown out conditions. Are there design choices that would have mitigated this? Yes, but then the device would have launched at higher than $35.

There are people here that would like to help you get your Pi working (assuming your expectations are in check). But I get the feeling you are just here to stir up drama.
This kind of attitude is frankly unacceptable.

Best of luck.

-Greg
When you have a problem with a cisco router do you call cisco and ask for a refund? If you go to a Lowes, Home Depot, or Walmart and buy a Samsung microwave and it fails to work out of the box do you return it to Samsung? If I buy a gallon of milk at the grocery store get it home and find out it is spoiled do I return it to the farm? No.

I'm sorry logic and simple common sense are unacceptable to you.

There is another variable to your 7 Pis not working and that is you.

Now if you want to get these working cut the crap and provide enough information for people to help you or close your pie hole.

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