Coburn
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:47 am

Agreed. I'd love to see a hacked copy of Windows 8 running on the Pi. Even if it gives a BSoD due to it failing to talk to the GPU firmware, I'd be happy to say "Hey peeps, we've got Win8 running on the Pi, however it bluescreens at this bootup stage, wanna break out the debugger and hacking tools and make it boot even further?" at the end of the day. Geeks will most likely chip in and chop up the code, find the issue, patch it, and before you know it, you'll have a Raspberry-flavored Windows install on the device. :P

Even if something's not possible, a workaround will be made. There's even the possibility of using a bootloader as the GPU kernel image - one could stick a copy of ARM-compiled uBoot (which is a pretty slick that supports pretty much anything you compile it for) as the bootloader, and go from there. uBoot is what the SheevaPlugs use.

To infinity, and beyond...

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:51 am

Although it has been said many times, even if Win8 would run on the R-Pi, it's just too slow. Why putting so many effort in something that will not work? At the time Win8 gets released MS will have multiple other devices that will have support anyway.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:53 am

Quote from thepanoguy on September 19, 2011, 01:45
If Microsoft has taken a serious interest in this project, expect the Raspberry Pi to sell a million production units with a Windows factory install and we each pay an extra $25 MS tax.

As far as I know they haven't taken any interest whatsoever.

With dev costs of $100k's at least, perhaps $1M, they would need to sell a lot of copies to make any port worthwhile. Not sure there is the market.
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thepanoguy
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:53 am

There have been defining moments that have changed history – Penicillin.

The only market is humanitarian – that requires people power.

With all the technological development in the past 50 years, the poverty trap is getting worse along with the return of the old curable diseases in a mutated incurable form. Poverty not only affects people, it also destroys the Earth’s ecology.

Worldwide; if there was enough people power generating enough noise that the Raspberry Pi project would change the lives of millions of children through education then I would say there is a probability that Microsoft would get involved through the Bill and Melinda Foundation. There would also have to be corporate R&D tax credits from participating governments.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:07 am

Quote from thepanoguy on September 19, 2011, 10:53
There have been defining moments that have changed history – Penicillin.

The only market is humanitarian – that requires people power.

With all the technological development in the past 50 years, the poverty trap is getting worse along with the return of the old curable diseases in a mutated incurable form. Poverty not only affects people, it also destroys the Earth’s ecology.

Worldwide; if there was enough people power generating enough noise that the Raspberry Pi project would change the lives of millions of children through education then I would say there is a probability that Microsoft would get involved through the Bill and Melinda Foundation. There would also have to be corporate R&D tax credits from participating governments.

I guess if there was enough people pressure then they might consider it. (if they thought the HW was up to the job - I don't think it is - not the HW's fault, bloated Windows software fault)

However, we already have a perfectly acceptable O/S on the device, that works, and is free. Free. MS won't give Win8 away for free - there will be some cost somewhere. That immediately makes it a worse option than Linux.

Linux provides all the facilities required - desktops, browsing, languages, Office equivalents - all for no cost, and all OSS. That's not going to happen with MS software. You might get it cheap - you won't get it for free.

And putting Win8 on the device just enhances the MS monopoly. They want people indoctrinated to use MS software, to the point where people will choose it even if it is the worse option. It's been working for them so far. Hopefully projects like this will persuade people that there is an alternative, and a good one at that.
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:15 am

Well said

Coburn
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:19 am

.... I forgot what I was going to say.
I bet some bright sparks will get Windows running on the Pi in some form or another. In the meantime, let's play with Linux on the Pi and go from there. Who knows, we could make a Lindoze 8 Win8 clone... :P

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:24 am

Oh my, are we still going on about that ? Quick recap:
1- It can't run.
2- Even if it could run, MS won't make it.
3- Even if it could run, and MS made it, there are no apps for it.
4- Even if it could run, and MS made it, and there were apps for it, they wouldn't fit with Windows in 256MB.
5- Even if it could run, and MS made it, and there were apps for it, and both could run in 256MB, we're better off using, and, as jamesh said, promoting, free, light, open, lots-of-apps Linux. Windows has none of those 4 advantages.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:32 am

Quote from Coburn on September 19, 2011, 11:19
.... I forgot what I was going to say.
I bet some bright sparks will get Windows running on the Pi in some form or another. In the meantime, let's play with Linux on the Pi and go from there. Who knows, we could make a Lindoze 8 Win8 clone... :P

I think someone is already working on it.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:13 am

Quote from ShiftPlusOne on September 19, 2011, 11:32
Quote from Coburn on September 19, 2011, 11:19
.... I forgot what I was going to say.
I bet some bright sparks will get Windows running on the Pi in some form or another. In the meantime, let's play with Linux on the Pi and go from there. Who knows, we could make a Lindoze 8 Win8 clone... :P

I think someone is already working on it.

I cannot be sure, but I think you might be taking the mick there....
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:24 am

Ok... So... What, precisely, will you run on this if they DID manage to make it work on a R-Pi? Office? That'd be about it, other than IE. Seriously.

How about C# or VB.NET? I know Project Mono is suppose to run on this but not all the API's are the same. How about other languages like FreeBasic (which does not have a ARM port), ThinBasic, or IWBasic. Also VB6 or old C++ programs that ran well on Win 3.1 and 95 that could get a new life here.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:32 am

Erv, it doesn't work that way.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:21 pm

HAHAHA-LOLOLOL no matter how much you kick this thread in the teeth it just keeps kicking back. Believe me, if this device is picked up by rip-offs and produced in the millions, as you say you hope it will Microsoft will look at it. They are probably horrified at the drop in the desktop and laptop markets. I do not believe any of them fore-saw the takeoff of the tablets or the fact that people are living their Internet life on their phones. The major manufacturers and Microsoft are looking for "leverage" in a market environment that they just did not look at well enough. Intel is scrambling to bring Atom processors into the mobile market.

Someone will bring RasPi clones into the mobile market. Even though we pay a couple hundred dollars to buy a Microsoft OS the manufacturers pay less than a hundred for all versions.

Kick it some more Lol! OH and I will say it again RasPi and Linux make sense.
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:37 pm

Ok then there are numerous probelms with using windows as an o/s.

But what about apples o/s. Surly thats got to work, Right ;) (this is a joke, not to be taken serious).

stuporhero
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm

Will not happen. If somehow it does, it will run like a dog. You're comparing a 1-core ARMv6 processor against a dual-core ARMv7 Cortex processor.

I guess the next question is what's wrong with Linux and why must you require Windows/Mac OS? You're not going to be able to fix it if it breaks (no source code).

I apologize to everyone in advance if I've just started a flame war.


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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:55 pm

iOS was slow on the iPhone 3G. It was the same ARMv6 (1176JZ(F)-S same family at least) at 620Mhz underclocked to 412Mhz. So you would get a little more out of the ARM in the RasPi (700MHz). As to the GPU, I do not see broadcom opening up to Apple since Apple is producing their own SoC. In the 3GS they switch to an A8 which was snappier than the 3G even though it was underclocked also (600 MHz instead of 833). The 3G only had 128MB of RAM. I find my iPhone4 is a bit slow after iOS 4 and later. So iOS would work ok if you could get a driver for the BCM2835 GPU.

There is nothing wrong with Linux. People are just trying to clarify their options. It all comes down to the GPU drivers. If Apple wanted to use the BCM2835 then it might be possible. Apples primary processors are the A4 and A5.

In the end it is the same problem as Windows!
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:02 am

There is no such thing as 'the ARM processor', individual systems are just too different. Our friends from Redmond are supporting a small number of specific hardware designs (processor, GPU, and peripheral chips). So I have some doubts that you A) will find this particula Broadcom SoC supported, and B) that Windows 8 for ARM will even be available retail. You can't buy a boxed version of iOS either.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:14 pm

In actuality the ARM side of the SoC is the least of the problems for the any OS. It will always be the GPU and other proprietary parts of any manufacturers SoC. This is not just a Broadcom issue. There is an ARM in the works for "ARM". A more likely candidate for the RasPi would be Windows Mobile. But you are correct that it is unlikely that they will support the BCM2835 at this point. When the winows 8 for ARM does appear it will support the Tegra 2 for sure. There will be others in that class that wil be supported also. Broadcom will most likely have a SoC in that class with their videocoreIV in it.
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:42 pm

Microsoft is a software company trying to break into the embedded consumer market.

The Raspberry Pi may be a low volume not for profit product. Broadcom Corporate is a Fortune 500 company. A percentage of Windows licensing royalties on $6.82 billion manufacturing turnover is serious small change income even for Microsoft to overlook.

http://www.broadcom.com/
http://www.broadcom.com/company/

Broadcom Corporation (NASDAQ: BRCM), a FORTUNE 500® company, is a global leader and innovator in semiconductor solutions for wired and wireless communications. Broadcom products seamlessly deliver voice, video, data and multimedia connectivity in the home, office and mobile environments. With the industry's broadest portfolio of state-of-the-art system-on-a-chip and embedded software solutions, Broadcom is changing the world by connecting everything.

Worldwide Employment: Approx. 9,460
2010 Revenue: $6.82 Billion
Q2 2011 Revenue: $1.8 Billion

IP Innovation:
U.S. Patents: 5,350
Foreign Patents: 2,300
Patents Pending: 7,650

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:57 pm

Quote from thepanoguy on September 20, 2011, 13:42
Microsoft is a software company trying to break into the embedded consumer market.

The Raspberry Pi may be a low volume not for profit product. Broadcom Corporate is a Fortune 500 company. A percentage of Windows licensing royalties on $6.82 billion manufacturing turnover is serious small change income even for Microsoft to overlook.

http://www.broadcom.com/
http://www.broadcom.com/company/

Broadcom Corporation (NASDAQ: BRCM), a FORTUNE 500® company, is a global leader and innovator in semiconductor solutions for wired and wireless communications. Broadcom products seamlessly deliver voice, video, data and multimedia connectivity in the home, office and mobile environments. With the industry's broadest portfolio of state-of-the-art system-on-a-chip and embedded software solutions, Broadcom is changing the world by connecting everything.

Worldwide Employment: Approx. 9,460
2010 Revenue: $6.82 Billion
Q2 2011 Revenue: $1.8 Billion

IP Innovation:
U.S. Patents: 5,350
Foreign Patents: 2,300
Patents Pending: 7,650

Broadcom are not expecting to make any (real) money on the Raspi project.

By real, I mean the sort of money they make when selling in high volumes (1M plus) to big customers. Raspi are NOT a big customer. Yet......

Edit : Just read you email again. That 6.8B is spread over a *lot* of different product, bluetooth, wireless, GPU, SoC, networking.
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:22 pm

I should clarify my previous email.

All large corporations get involved in commendable humanitarian charitable activities. Let’s separate the charitable activities of Broadcom’s involvement in the Raspberry Pi project from their commercial activities.

Worldwide; in first world countries, the purchase of commercial mainstream computer sales have reached saturation level. That means Microsoft’s main revenue stream will eventually stagnate or slide into the red. Microsoft’s future growth stream is embedded or portable consumer devices.

Considering Broadcom’s investment portfolio and turnover; if Broadcom, as a Fortune 500 company, decides to introduce a new commercial consumer product in the market place, it would be in Microsoft’s commercial interest to evaluate that product for commercial viability. Not investigating the long term growth and sales potential in that product would be committing corporate suicide.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:37 pm

Except Broadcom don't make commercial consumer product - they make components. It would be quite a leap for them to move in to commercial product.

That said, nowadays, selling SoC's you need to be able to build reference platforms for people (even if you don't sell to customers), and if someone wanted MS software to run on one of those them I suppose it might be considered. It won't be cheap though. Some man years of work - some millions of $. However, MS don't (AFAIK) go to component people to build stuff, and even if they did, unless there is a cast iron big money sale at the end of it for the component manufacturer, the component people are unlikely to do any porting to MS. They won't do it just because MS ask.

Android tends to be the areas where companies are putting time and effort in because that what manufacturers want - not Microsoft O/S.
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:02 pm

Also, don't forget MS are in no rush to push the price of desktop/laptop PCs lower and make their own OS and software appear so much more expensive in the process.
They're doing it for tablets and phones because those are actually more expensive than PCs, and because they are selling so well that MS basically has no choice.
For a smarttop such as the Pi, the equation is different: smarttops are selling in negligible numbers, even though they have been around for a few years; and they are less expensive than PCs (the Pi a lot less, others somewhat to not really ^^). If I were MS, I'd try to avoid the platform, if not worse.

ErvKosch
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:03 pm

There is no such thing as 'the ARM processor', individual systems are just too different.

At Linuxcon Linus Torvalds spoke on this exact issue:
http://www.theinquirer.net/inq.....s-torvalds

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