jamesh
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:34 pm

Quote from obarthelemy on September 14, 2011, 14:18
@jamesh: from my personal experience, CPU speed is never the worst problem: things may take forever to start (I've had PCs take more than 10 minutes to reach a "productive" state, incuding autoloading their apps), but once the OS and 2-3 apps are launched (say, Browser, email, Word, chat, Explorer), the PC spends most of its time waiting on the user anyway.
What really makes a PC unusable is if swapping occurs all the time and a mere alt-tab takes more than 10s. And that is more of a disk IO and RAM (swap) issue, than a CPU issue. Even graphics (windows redraw, scrolling) are probably more of an issue than CPU per se.
YMMV of course, I'm talking about a dumb office use, not even Powerpoint, Excel, Page layout... let alone anything more CPU intensive. That's about 90% of users, but I I understand this is not the Pi's target.

Lots of RAM certainly helps in a lot of circumstances. But as an example, Stellarium on my x86 box takes 10 minutes to compile. On the Raspi, (and I don't think it was swapping), about 6 hours. Now SD card access is a factor, but CPU was running at between 95 and 100% all the time. We are expecting a factor of 30 or so difference between the Raspi and a desktop (my *cheap* desktop is 2 years old, running Ubuntu on twin core Athlon II 215's).
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thesynapseuk
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:43 pm

To be honest, getting Windows 8 available on the R-Pi is a step in the wrong direction in all sorts of ways. True, people use Windows and not Linux. But Linux is a operating system geared towards tinkering and getting under the hood and into the guts of computers. It's also fully customisable and puts power in the hands of the user, albeit not EVERY user.

Considering that the R-Pi is meant to be promoting computer science skills (amongst other things), Windows on the R-Pi would be a retrograde step away from the whole point of the project. In addition, since you are trying to make it clear the the R-Pi, and what it offers, is different to the bland, boring ICT classes of schools (which solely use MS office productivity software) and that computers offer so much more, it's worth emphasising that difference with a different OS - especially one that you can customise to your heart's content.

Incidentally, I'm a Windows User. I used to use Linux a few years ago but was at a point where I just wanted to get on and use software on my computer, rather than spending lots of time just getting something to basically run. Now I'm in a position where I'd actually like to learn programming and the guts of a system, for which the R-Pi will suit me very well!

Svartalf
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:43 pm

Moreover, none of this discussion has hit on another reality of things here.

Even if you get Windows to work on an R-Pi. Absolutely NONE of your applications will work on it. All of the apps are X86 binaries. Your vendor will have to recompile their code for ARM on Windows8 just for you to be able to see things run there. It's not going to work out the way any of the people that get worked up over them getting it over on ARM think it will. This is their classic stalling tactic to get people to "just wait" until they get it all working over on the new platform.

mukhtar
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:51 pm

Yeah , myself I prefer to run Linux whereever I can , but just from a possibility stand of view windows on arm / pi would be awesome! It would have alot of possibilities for people who just close their browsers after seeing Linux , and trust me alot of people are like that. I think the pi community should be more for choice right?

obarthelemy
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:57 pm

<rant>
I don't know of any netbook that has been successful with Linux; most Linux-variant of netbooks have been pulled quickly, or are limping on with confidential sales. Some people who already know how to use Linux have indeed installed or kept it on their netbook too, but almost 0 "linux virgin" people are actually *coping* with Linux on a netbook, let alone actively *seeking* linux.
I think the issue is not so much the OS: the OS is there to launch apps and enable peripherals, and maybe provide a graphical shell.
Well, Linux's shells are different enough to throw off Windows/Mac users. My parents and sister get thrown off when an icon simply moves within the desktop/menu bar, and haven't even mastered the vocabulary, calling "windows", "tables", not finding the tab key...
Above all, the issue is the Apps. Most people *need* Office (I've tried to make do with Open Office while working from home, it didn't pan out, too many import/export glitches even for Word docs); and are also used to a handful of other Windows apps. Alas, there's 0 chance of Windows 8+those apps running satisfactorily on the Pi. Actually, a long-term hope would be for Windows 8 to fail, and smartphone/tablet using people to gradually move to open formats.
An I'm not about to launch into transitioning the 'rents to Linux. IS there even a good Scrabble game for it ? :-p
I may launch into getting my nephew to start with PCs on the Pi, though ^^
</rant>

Svartalf
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:12 pm

Quote from mukhtar on September 14, 2011, 19:51
Yeah , myself I prefer to run Linux whereever I can , but just from a possibility stand of view windows on arm / pi would be awesome! It would have alot of possibilities for people who just close their browsers after seeing Linux , and trust me alot of people are like that. I think the pi community should be more for choice right?

Ok... So... What, precisely, will you run on this if they DID manage to make it work on a R-Pi? Office? That'd be about it, other than IE. Seriously.

People would view this with about the same reactions that they had when they found out that WinCE wasn't really Windows like they associated with the "OS" they're used to- namely that they can't run jack of their stuff on a small, portable, cheap computer.

Yes, it's about choice...the thing is...wishing for this isn't really based anywhere in reality.

Svartalf
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:23 pm

Quote from obarthelemy on September 14, 2011, 19:57
<rant>
I don't know of any netbook that has been successful with Linux; most Linux-variant of netbooks have been pulled quickly, or are limping on with confidential sales.


Not to hear Dell tell it. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2....._netbooks/ And, a former inside source I had had confirmed that and confirmed that they had about 1/3rd the sales for Linux versus Windows on their lineup. While it might be based on personal experience, what you're raning on there isn't so.


Some people who already know how to use Linux have indeed installed or kept it on their netbook too, but almost 0 "linux virgin" people are actually *coping* with Linux on a netbook, let alone actively *seeking* linux.


Depends on which computer branding and WHERE they're buying it from. Most of the "disasters" have been due to highly unscrupulous sales people and clueless people associating "Windows" with a "PC". The intersection of this sort of stuff is where the pain began there.


I think the issue is not so much the OS: the OS is there to launch apps and enable peripherals, and maybe provide a graphical shell.


Okay...what possesses you to think that there will be ARM apps there other than Office, if that?


Well, Linux's shells are different enough to throw off Windows/Mac users. My parents and sister get thrown off when an icon simply moves within the desktop/menu bar, and haven't even mastered the vocabulary, calling "windows", "tables", not finding the tab key...


Heh... Microsoft already did the SAME thing with Vista/Win7 and people flogging this tale keep missing that little detail. Sorry, not buying it. It's the excuse they keep coming up with- but they're doing it because they're telling themselves it's "Windows" so it's easier to pick up, because they've been told so. Seriously.


Above all, the issue is the Apps. Most people *need* Office (I've tried to make do with Open Office while working from home, it didn't pan out, too many import/export glitches even for Word docs); and are also used to a handful of other Windows apps. Alas, there's 0 chance of Windows 8+those apps running satisfactorily on the Pi. Actually, a long-term hope would be for Windows 8 to fail, and smartphone/tablet using people to gradually move to open formats.


<rant>
Sorry, but people don't "need" Office. If you're not doing idiot "fancy" things, OpenOffice/LibreOffice does quite well. Sometimes even with your doing it. I should know, in the large, I've managed to do things just fine with OpenOffice/LibreOffice in a MS dominated office for over a decade now.

Worse, there's no assurances they'll give you an Office that'd FIT on this machine.
</rant>


An I'm not about to launch into transitioning the 'rents to Linux. IS there even a good Scrabble game for it ? :-p
I may launch into getting my nephew to start with PCs on the Pi, though ^^
</rant>

No, but there's really not a "good" Scrabble game on Windows either... ;)

Other games, perhaps...but that's a different rant.

obarthelemy
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:21 pm

1- You're assuming everyone that bought a Linux netbook kept it that way. Everyone but one I know who did it, rushed off to install a bootleg (or, sometimes, company-supplied legal) Windows. I know, I did many reinstalls for these cheapskates.

2- I finally recently had to upgrade my parents' Windows to 7 for some printer driver. Windows 7 "classic" look with a few extra tweaks is basically undistinguishable from XP. I gave up on pinning apps to the taskbar, and put them back on the desktop....

3- Regarding OpenOffice, I'm not talking about features (which are almost fine for me in OOo, printing in "revision" mode is much better with Word though), but import/export filters messing things up. And it's basically all or nothing: even if about 70% of docs travel back and forth fine, the remaining 30% make import/export a no-go, especially because the more complex the layout, the more important and work-intensive the document (in my case, product brochures and business plan). I've had to remote onto my boss's Office-equipped Mac to finish some of that stuff up.

Svartalf
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:33 pm

Quote from obarthelemy on September 14, 2011, 22:21
1- You're assuming everyone that bought a Linux netbook kept it that way. Everyone but one I know who did it, rushed off to install a bootleg (or, sometimes, company-supplied legal) Wfrindows. I know, I did many reinstalls for these cheapskates.

Perhaps...but when there's no price difference, which is really the case with the Dell Netbooks in question... ;)


2- I finally recently had to upgrade my parents' Windows to 7 for some printer driver. Windows 7 "classic" look with a few extra tweaks is basically undistinguishable from XP. I gave up on pinning apps to the taskbar, and put them back on the desktop....


It still doesn't work like XP in many ways...and if you're being honest about it, there's loads of things that're different in the same manner as the gripes I keep seeing about Linux and MacOS... The thing is...when I challenge the people about their gripes about Windows...they tend to be flummoxed when they start thinking about what they're saying about all of it... It's because they're thinking it's "familiar", regardless of whether it is or not that makes it "familiar".


3- Regarding OpenOffice, I'm not talking about features (which are almost fine for me in OOo, printing in "revision" mode is much better with Word though), but import/export filters messing things up. And it's basically all or nothing: even if about 70% of docs travel back and forth fine, the remaining 30% make import/export a no-go, especially because the more complex the layout, the more important and work-intensive the document (in my case, product brochures and business plan). I've had to remote onto my boss's Office-equipped Mac to finish some of that stuff up.


Your mileage may vary. I've only ever really had 10-15% problems...and they were problematic even for WIndows machines...

Besides, all of your remarks are still evading the one I made... You claim all of this stuff...but in reality, what honest assessment will give you all of this stuff with Windows 8, since they're already changing it up even further and the apps you allude to will basically NOT be there?

THAT is the point I'm making here.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:51 pm

Guys you're literally arguing about whether or not Schrodinger's cat is dead or alive! The features of Windows 8 are meaningless because it can't run on the R-pi ;)
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luw
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:57 pm

obarthelemy: o.O do you have a time machine? it's like this post was made in 2003. i have 3 older IBM laptops, newer lenovo ones, dells, toshibas and an EEPC that all run linux fine? driver support is now there and haven't been even maintenanced since april 2010. my parents have been on it since 2007 for just basic internet and openoffice and have helped them work around any export issues with openoffice (i know what you mean about that).

as for windows on this...i wouldn't really care. well actually i do, i would rather the time be spent developing linux and linux applications. i'm glad it wont happen!

Svartalf
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:59 pm

Quote from abishur on September 14, 2011, 22:51
Guys you're literally arguing about whether or not Schrodinger's cat is dead or alive! The features of Windows 8 are meaningless because it can't run on the R-pi ;)

Heh... I KNOW this. I'm just trying to convey the reality of things if it were even able to run on it. :D

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:22 pm

lol: in fact I have ran into people that were Linux virgins that left Linux on their netbook. Their main complaint, Flash videos wouldn't play. Their main comment was on how fast it loaded compared to windows. Smart phones have helped also in both Linux and ARM. Again the refer to the title of this thread "Windows 8 to support ARM". Obviously Microsoft sees something in ARM.

I will be using Linux on RasPi. I will continue to run Windows on my gaming machine! The netbook has both. The iPad has iOS as does my iPhone. By the way smart phones introduced me to ARM. I never had an ARM device before.
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mukhtar
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:41 am

Meh supported or not , I think should the oppertunity arise later on for the rpi to support windows, we should jump on it .... CROSS PLATFORM ALL THE WAY!

ShiftPlusOne
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:52 am

RPi can't support Windows, that's 100% up to Microsoft.

iAreNewb
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:03 am

It's not up to Microsoft at all -- Microsoft is definitely incapable of making Win8 run on a 700 MHz single-core last-generation ARM processor with 256MB of RAM. It's impossible. Running MicroXP (an optimized and renamed [unofficial and discouraged by Microsoft] copy of XP) took around 100 MB of RAM and over 500 MHz of CPU power.

Considering the trend of Windows, I'd assume that the vanilla Win8 (even considering ARM) has a recommended spec. of at least 1 GHz and 1 GB of RAM. Maybe their "requirements" are lower, but running it just with the "required" hardware results in a choppy, lag-prone, and generally useless working environment.

Smartphones, tablets, and netbooks in the next few years will be using the more powerful ARM dual-core or quad-core CPUs. It'd be rather overly optimistic to think that Microsoft would go to such extreme lengths to optimize Win8 when it's likely that the R-Pi will upgrade to sufficient hardware in a year or two after the first release.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:20 am

Quote from Lob0426 on September 14, 2011, 03:23
...The GEEKS are going to hate this distro because it does not have Gnome, KDE etc....
No.

Geeks will be using the CLI and will love it.

It's the Fanboys who will be complaining about the lack of Gnome/KDE/twm/whatever and arguing over which GUI is the best/easiest/most appropriate in exactly the same way they do at the moment for every single other platform.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:21 am

It's not up to Microsoft at all -- Microsoft is definitely incapable of making Win8 run on a 700 MHz single-core last-generation ARM processor with 256MB of RAM.

Yes, so how do they expect raspberry pi to be able to do anything to support their software? It seems like people who want Windows on rpi should be asking microsoft developers about it, not the rpi community.

What I meant by that statement was that it's not up to us... we don't have the windows source code, we don't have any useful specifications, we have absolutely no information. Microsoft has access to pretty much all the information they need to get Windows running on rpi, so yeah that's where I was going with that.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:56 am

My personal take (not opinion of Raspi themselves) is that if you want Windows, then the Raspi is not for you. There are loads of cheap PC's out there designed to run Windows. If you want Windows get one of those.

I like Linux - use Ubuntu with Unity, use LibreOffice at home. Apart from some occasional weird printing issues (over the network via a Vista machine, so its probably that!), I does everything I need. And more TBH.

I use WIndows XP on desktop and laptop at work. That works fine too. But I don't pay for the licences, so that's OK.

Horses for course. And the horse on the Pi course is Linux.
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:58 pm

Just to add to ShiftPlusOne's comment above, I'll personally be attempting to build a few small operating systems on my RasPi (with memory checks so it works on A and B), building a few light interfaces in Python/PyGame and moving over to C/SDL when I'm happy with it. This geek will be making the most of every flop the RasPi can give!

Andius
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:54 pm

Maybe it would be better to get Google to compile Chrome OS for it instead :D

mukhtar
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:12 pm

Again , I use windows , AND linux , depending on the task at hand ofcourse..but..if at all possible windows on the pi would be one more thing this little beast would be able to do. If not , i wouldnt care ... I wouldnt run it anyways .. maybe for a day to test it but thats about it.

Svartalf
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:58 pm

Heh... Hopefully the news of ARM Win 8 not being able to EVER run X86 binaries will mostly put an end to things here... None of your apps will run on it, even if it could be made to run on an R-Pi, unless the vendor makes an ARM11 or better port of the app.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2....._x86_apps/

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:34 pm

Quote from Svartalf on September 16, 2011, 14:58
Heh... Hopefully the news of ARM Win 8 not being able to EVER run X86 binaries will mostly put an end to things here...

Probably not, because running x86 binaries was never really the issue. Windows running on ARM, and particularly the potential of that Windows running on R-Pi is what's interesting. Whether Microsoft make that possible or even produce a Windows which can run in an R-Pi footprint remains to be seen.

As Microsoft intend to support ARM Windows it seems likely they will produce tools which can generate binaries which run under ARM Windows. Hopefully that will just mean ticking a checkbox in Visual Studio and, "bingo!", out pops a binary ready for copying to the ARM board.

That opens the door for programmers who want to use Windows PC, are familiar with Windows development and also want to target ARM and, in our case, R-Pi.

There's a lot of negativity about Windows, but to me ( wearing my programmer's hat ) it's just a tool; doesn't matter if the R-Pi is running Linux, BSD, OS/2, RISC-OS or Windows, as long as I can create programs which will run on the platform. The more familiar the programming paradigm, the more familiar the tools, the better that is for me ( and I would guess others also ). I previously developed Palm Pilot apps using MobileVB with VB6 and that was a doddle because I'm very familiar with VB6, it was far easier than having to understand Palm specific SDK's and tools using an unfamiliar development environment.

Arguing Linux versus Windows is almost as pointless as arguing over whether gas or electric cookers are best when all you want to do is boil an egg. Maybe Linux is better than Windows, but if people want Windows, and it's possible to have Windows, makes them happy, then let them have it. After all the primary focus for the R-Pi is on Programming, not what's in the box which facilitates that.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:06 pm

Quote from hippy on September 16, 2011, 17:34
Arguing Linux versus Windows is almost as pointless as arguing over whether gas or electric cookers are best when all you want to do is boil an egg.

Clearly the gas cooker wins, it's cheaper and gets the job done just as well. Also, a flame is more aesthetically appealing than a hot plate. So yeah, obviously Linux wins.

Anyway, someone on slashdot (rabun_bike) made a good point. Microsoft has had a very long and close partnership with Intel. It's hard to see them giving ARM equal attention. It's much more likely that they'll ensure that Intel is still the processor of choice for desktops and ARM support is mainly aimed at a few select Windows phones and tablets. So yeah, they're not going to do more than they have to to keep up.

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