mukhtar
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:26 am

http://www.pcworld.com/article....._cons.html

This is very interesting, could someone look into this and let us know if it is AT ALL possible for the pi B to run it , for windows has already confirmed the minimum RAM is 256 mb. This would be ground-breaking for the pi since many people who are not linux friendly would still be able to use the pi to the fullest extent under windows...just my 2 cents :)

So what are your thoughts?

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:34 am

Not really interested.
- Windows licenses are expensive, paying $100-$200 for the OS to run a $25 computer doesn't really make sense. Even if we can buy Windows 8/ARM for much less, there is still not much point (see below)
- Windows needs more RAM than that to actually work. 1GB is already very iffy, so I strongly doubt 128-256 MB will be anywhere near enough to actually run Apps, on top of the OS.
- Windows x86 main advantage is Apps. Windows on ARM has none. Hopefully Windows 8/ARM will get Office, but there's no prospect at all of that monster running in 256MB-OS.
- Once you get it to run (which will be done for us), there's nothing really wrong with Linux.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:15 am

Oh totally im 100% pro linux but regarding 256 mb microsoft has already said the minimalized interface that they are developing will work under 256 mb of ram , now i think some tweaks will have to be done for it to work WELL but nonetheless this raises some interesting possibilities no? Also who said id pay for a windows license ;)

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:28 am

I've been using windows since 3.1 I'm on win7 now with an amd x-4 645 at 3.2 ghz 8gig ram. and it feels like My old 386 20mhz on win 3.1 I have a bad feeling I'm going to need a super computer to run win 8. For Me the R-pi is going to be a good tool to learn the ins and outs of linux, and hopefully by the time win 8 comes out I will be installing linux on My desktop and lappy.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:49 am

Actually if you watch the keynote from the Build conference over at http://www.buildwindows.com Windows 8 will require very little memory/cpu power at least from the raw bytes/hertz values. The big clincher with Windows 8 and the RaspberryPi would more than likely be drivers and hardware acceleration. While personally I think it would be awesome if someone got Windows 8 running on RaspberryPi I dont think anyone would want to use it for anything more than a novelty. Though when I get my RaspberryPi I'll certainly be giving it a shot ...

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:23 am

Not that I do not agree with what you are saying, But: Windows is what people want. Linux has been around a long time. Linux's prime failure is that it has so many distributions. It has so many File managers. It has so many of everything. The general public sees Linux as a GEEK thing. People feel comfortable with windows because there is only one fille management system. It comes with one internet. It comes with one media player. They understand how winodws works "for them". Is it bloated? YES. Is it slow? YES. Does it gobble up memory? YES. But windows marketed it hard. And even though Apple, next to gave away computers to schools so that the children would grow up with their OS and hardware, Apple (macintosh) still lost the game. Apple is popular with the generation that grew up with it. But price is the point that Windows won on. Apples are still relatively expensive today. They were the only ones you could get a MAC from. PC's were made by many manufacturers. And though windows is expensive, it was on the cheaper computers. The price of the OS was lost in the noise.

So where does this lead us now. I believe ARM could be the answer for most of the public. Rolling a Kernel for the processor is easy the architecture is well documented. The kernel in reference to the GPU a little more troubling. The ARM licensees all or almost all build their own GPU. If they keep there "BLOB" up to date it will not be bad. But redoing the kernel each time the GPU is updated (for performance) is going to put John Q public off of linux.

I have brought the RasPi up to just these kind of people, and they are interested in the price, they are interested in the reported performance, they want one for their kids to learn on, and then they ask "does it run windows"? Then they are not interested.

Put them in schools. Put a vanilla version of linux on them and then keep them inexpensive and RasPi could succeed in a Market that pushed aside the MAC. Keep Linux in the realm of an arcane and mystical GEEK OS and the public will still want windows.

To bring Linux main stream, Someone is going to have to make the hard choices as to what to roll into a distro by limiting the numbers of everything that goes into the distro. The GEEKS are going to hate this distro because it does not have Gnome, KDE etc. that was their favorite. Someone is going to have to pick a media player that is general purpose. Someone is going to have to make package installation that a 3 year old can understand as well as just clicking a button in windows, because their parents won't be able to. Then this distro that all of you will consider retarded (Developmentally Disabled) will go into contention with windows. Along this course it will become bloated and slow and a memory hog. This is because it will have to load onto everything easy. The public has no patience for rolling a kernel for their hardware.

Some of the netbooks have been successful with Linux which is a good sign. We need to look at why some of them are doing well, in the public, and see if it can be improved upon. RasPi, due to the price, has a lot going for it. Let Windows 8 try it's thing with ARM. My guess is it will be ported to the newest version of ARM available, but ignore any version before that. You will not see Microsoft port it to the RasPi unless it has been sold in the millions by the time Win8 hits the market. as to what size Windows can run on don't put to many bets that it won't run on a 1gig Tegra2 just fine. It probably will. Win7 Basic runs just fine on N270 notebooks with 1GB. Though this is comparing apples to Raspberries you should understand that Win8 is throwing out all of the backward compatibility that has eroded windows performance for years. Your old Win programs are going to run in an emulator instead of a compatibility mode.
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:55 am

I agree with Lob0426 , i thgink this development would make the pi much more appealing to many people..

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:15 am

Regardless of the debate on the worthwhileness of Windows the larger issue here is that the R-Pi will not support Windows (Check the FAQs page :) ) even with an ARM version of Windows it won't be able to work with the binary blob on the GPU.
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:21 am

If a million RasPii are sold, you do not think microsoft would contact Broadcom and see what could be done?
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:45 am

Quote from Lob0426 on September 14, 2011, 04:21
If a million RasPii are sold, you do not think microsoft would contact Broadcom and see what could be done?

Perhaps, if not we should contact them ... many small manufacturers get hardware and driver support not too hard..

Also I dont understand why people here are so anti-windows perhaps its not the ideal OS but having the choice to run windows on the PI is a very good thing , being a open source supporter I really think choice is good , regardless of licensing , type of os , etc ....

Anyone agree?

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:55 am

I would like to see something, heck anything give windows a run for its money, But the more Raspii sold the more the foundation can give to their goal, children. If Microsoft wants to do the work to get it on the RasPi and people will buy it. If that means Win8 gets it's foot in, So Be It. I will not buy it for the Raspi, but many will if it works.
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:02 am

Quote from Lob0426 on September 14, 2011, 03:23
*wall*

Since when is linux a failure? 0_o

The only thing it hasn't manage to get a foothold in is the desktop market. Even then, for what it is and how it started, linux is massive. And it's much, much more suitible for the ras-pi, because its open-source roots allow it and it's software to be ported to different architectures with relative ease. Even if windows did make an OS for ARM processors, people still wouldn't necessarily buy it because of the fact that there would be literally no software for it. At least not proprietary, but then you'd still be better off using linux.

But I see where you're coming from. People don't like change, but some of us don't want to have linux=windows. I hate windows because of most of what you said, and more.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:28 am

I'm sure Microsoft will see the potential to the RasPi and try to force a Windows 8 Starter Edition on the community at some point if (as we hope) it makes a large impact. Look at what happened with Netbooks and the OLPC project!

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:32 am

Disclaimer: I have nothing against Windows. I use Windows and Linux equally and I am not just using this as an opportunity to rant.

If you remember that x86 is not the same as ARM and realise that unless the software was specifically compiled to run on ARM, it will not run, why would you want Windows on ARM?

We have a foundation of hundreds of thousands of different free software projects we can either use directly or port quickly for ARM and Linux. The kernel alone would cost a company over a billion dollars to develop. Instead, it is done for free by community developers and companies like IBM, Intel, Novell, Nokia, Texas Instruments and so on.

What foundation does Windows have? What great software does Windows CE have, for example?
They have a great foundation on the x86/64 desktop, but as far as ARM goes, I think they're doing too little, too late.

If you want a closed source program (as most Windows programs are) to run on ARM, you have no choice but to complain to the developer and hope they listen. But why would they? They already have their software compatible with 90% of PCs out there, why bother supporting little niche devices and entering a market where all of their competitors provide the same sort of software for free?

What is Windows 8 going to ship with? A browser, paint, minesweeper and solitaire? That's what you want Windows on the raspi for?

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:18 am

People seem to be fixating on the 256MB RAM. That's not the problem. The problem is the 700MHz Arm processor simply won't be powerful enough to run a Windows 8 desktop, even with help from the GPU (well, it might run it but sloooooow)

More modern Arm devices are twin core Cortex A8's running at over a GHz. That a lots of extra power (and cost of course) over the Arm11.

Also, for teaching programming, email, browsing, Linux command line + LXDE (or similar) is really all you need - no need for complicated desktops, memory and CPU hungry Windows IDE's etc.

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eggn1n3
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:23 am

And don't forget you would need the Windows8 drivers as well. Who would develope these (for free)?

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:29 am

Don't forget that Win8 is going to be designed to have different editions to run well on everything from high-end desktops to mid-range tablets / phones, so I suspect the mobile edition of Win8 will run OK on an R-Pi. OK, you're not going to be able to run the latest games on it, but I suspect ARM optimised versions of Office and IE will work fine.

Also Re applications needing to be compiled for ARM, this shouldn't be a problem for .NET applications, as you should just be able to change the target CPU in Visual Studio to ARM and then compile your existing app.

I don't see this as a bad thing at all. There will be people who will want to run Windows on an R-Pi, even if it does quadruple the overall cost. A lot of people just seem to be uncomfortable with Linux for some reason. Also, it would be good for schools, who probably already have a windows domain and educational licences for all their computers, so they could kit out an entire IT lab pretty cheaply. From my point of view as a developer I think this is great, because I'll be able to install the phone / tablet version of win8 on a cheap device and use it to test mobile applications without an emulator. Plus I get development-usage OS licences for free, as I have an MSDN subscription.

P.S. Another news story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/busi.....s-14908568

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:42 am

But could you run a Win8 development environment on your R-Pi, or would you need a full blown PC for this? This is something the R-Pi can with Linux....

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:50 am

Here's a comment on the first Windows Tablet running Win 8.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2.....s8_tablet/

Now that has a VERY powerful processor in (probably 30x-40x faster than the one in the raspi). I think it highly unlikely that Windows 8 will run at an acceptable speed, if at all, on a Raspi.
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:08 am

Quote from jamesh on September 14, 2011, 09:50
Here's a comment on the first Windows Tablet running Win 8.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2.....s8_tablet/

Now that has a VERY powerful processor in (probably 30x-40x faster than the one in the raspi). I think it highly unlikely that Windows 8 will run at an acceptable speed, if at all, on a Raspi.

Yes it does but that's an x86 (x64, I believe) processor, not ARM. They were demoing the ARM version, but have not yet released it to anyone as they don't think it's quite ready yet.

I am interested in whether it can be done or not, but my interest is from a purely nerdy point of view. For the mainstream RasPi, a slimline Linux distro is the way to go - no question. I would be interested in running Win8 (if at all possible) on a RasPi, but that's because I like tinkering and using things in an unconventional way - such as running OS X on a regular PC (moral/legal questions aside), or playing with BeOS/Haiku, BSD, etc. I'm looking forward to the first previews of the ARM version, as I'm really interested in giving it a whirl on my tablet (which, with it's dual-core Tegra 2, should have more than enough grunt).

For what it's worth, apps for Win8 ARM should not be a problem. It's unclear whether Win8 ARM will be backwards compatible with existing x86 software, but I seriously doubt that will happen; even if it does happen, the RasPi hasn't got a hope in hell of running that kind of compatibility layer - the processor just does not have the grunt. However, Microsoft have advised that any app written for the new 'Metro' framework (the fancy "tiles" thing) will work on both x86 and ARM with no cross-compiling or separate versions needed. What that means in terms of ARM hardware requirements is yet to be revealed. I doubt you'll see full versions of heavyweights such as Office or Outlook on ARM though - that just doesn't strike me as the target market for the Windows 8 ARM platform.

EDIT: PS, MS have also confirmed that the only way you'll get apps on to Win 8 ARM will be through the new app store they're creating. In that regard, it'll probably be much more like the locked-down walled-garden of the iPad than the developer/hacker/nerd-friendly Android.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:26 am

MS works with the platforms it'll be supporting to port their software - we're not one of those platforms. And Win 8 doesn't work on *all* ARMs - I don't believe we have the processing power.

Quite apart from all that, who on earth is going to be prepared to pay many times the price of their base device for a software licence?
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:28 pm

The question of windows on RasPi has came up more than a few times here in this forum. And though I believe that Linux IS the proper choice for RasPi. The question will keep coming up. As to the question as to who would pay many times the cost of the base device for windows? Why most likely the people who keep asking about it!

Will Win8 run on RasPi Model A and B. Ask Microsoft when you have sold and or gave away 1 million+. But still I do not see A or B ever seeing windows on them. But A and B probably will, hopefully not be the end of the Raspberry Pi foundations contribution to a new paradigm in computing devices.

I also believe that as the RasPi becomes popular that your buying power will increase. And so do you by what I have seen in other threads. So you will at some point transition to a more mainstream ARM core, which will make it even more likely that a "future" RasPi will be supported by Windows. Windows will never be the foundations choice, for any RasPii, as it cannot ever be brought to a usable price point that will meet the foundations goal.

Next week, and the week after, and probably the week after that, someone else will start a thread asking if RasPi will run windows. They want to be in their comfort zone and that means Windows to them. The answer right now is no it will not run any current version of windows! It runs Linux.
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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:18 pm

@jamesh: from my personal experience, CPU speed is never the worst problem: things may take forever to start (I've had PCs take more than 10 minutes to reach a "productive" state, incuding autoloading their apps), but once the OS and 2-3 apps are launched (say, Browser, email, Word, chat, Explorer), the PC spends most of its time waiting on the user anyway.
What really makes a PC unusable is if swapping occurs all the time and a mere alt-tab takes more than 10s. And that is more of a disk IO and RAM (swap) issue, than a CPU issue. Even graphics (windows redraw, scrolling) are probably more of an issue than CPU per se.
YMMV of course, I'm talking about a dumb office use, not even Powerpoint, Excel, Page layout... let alone anything more CPU intensive. That's about 90% of users, but I I understand this is not the Pi's target.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:58 pm

According to ZDNet, here’s how much RAM is consumed on a fresh build of Windows 8 compared with Windows 7:

Windows 7 Preview Release
RAM usage: 540MB
34 processes

Windows 7 SP1
RAM usage – 404MB
32 processes

Windows 8 Preview
RAM usage – 281MB
29 processes

That's on x86, I don't know if ARM code will be tighter or more verbose, and how much MS will manage to trim that before launch... but my guess is they'd need to cut off 50% for Win8 to be anywhere near usable (with actual apps running) in 256 MB of RAM, and that's not gonna happen.

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Re: Windows 8 to support ARM!

Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:28 pm

Quote from obarthelemy on September 14, 2011, 14:58
According to ZDNet, here’s how much RAM is consumed on a fresh build of Windows 8 compared with Windows 7:

Windows 7 Preview Release
RAM usage: 540MB
34 processes

Windows 7 SP1
RAM usage – 404MB
32 processes

Windows 8 Preview
RAM usage – 281MB
29 processes

That's on x86, I don't know if ARM code will be tighter or more verbose, and how much MS will manage to trim that before launch... but my guess is they'd need to cut off 50% for Win8 to be anywhere near usable (with actual apps running) in 256 MB of RAM, and that's not gonna happen.

Arm code, being RISC, is more verbose. Commonly 25% or more I've read somewhere.
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