AlDante
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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 8:35 am

To add some spice to the Jazelle/OpenJDK/Shark debate, here is a blog post from Oracle's Hinkmond Wong, promoting Oracle's (binary, still headless) Java ME Embedded Client for ARM.

https://blogs.oracle.com/hinkmond/entry ... ith_java_a

Well, at least they know about the Raspberry PI…

(On another note - they are also formally in breach of the Foundation Trademark rules, because the logo links to engadget. Potential source of income for the Foundation, anyone )

jamesh
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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 8:44 am

I have to say the use of the Logo with a Java logo superimposed does seem a little naughty considering how pissy Oracle get about this sort of thing.

That said, I do NOT like Oracle, and care not one whit if their Java works or not.
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shirro
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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 10:29 am

@JamesH - no you have it wrong. Raspberry Pi is now powered by Java(R) and if the foundation do not carry the Java(R) logo and pay a royalty to Oracle they will be in breach of Oracle's IP.

I for one welcome our new enterprise ready unbreakable Raspberry Pi(tm) powered by Oracle(R) Java(R). I hear config.txt is moving to XML in the next iteration and will be 2000 lines long which will surely be a big improvement and show Raspberry Pi is a serious enterprise player at last.

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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 10:45 am

shirro said:


@JamesH - no you have it wrong. Raspberry Pi is now powered by Java(R) and if the foundation do not carry the Java(R) logo and pay a royalty to Oracle they will be in breach of Oracle's IP.

I for one welcome our new enterprise ready unbreakable Raspberry Pi(tm) powered by Oracle(R) Java(R). I hear config.txt is moving to XML in the next iteration and will be 2000 lines long which will surely be a big improvement and show Raspberry Pi is a serious enterprise player at last.



XML?

XML is too transparent, anyone with a text editor can read and comprehend it! We at Oracle have determined that the configuration will be embodied in a robust custom data repository that we call "The Register", that will be encrypted in ROT13 for YOUR safety and peace of mind.

This will ensure that the Raspberry Pi (Powered by OracleJava Solutions(tm)) will become the leading scalable enterprise level solution for the modern enterprise!
I'm just a bouncer, splatterers do it with more force.....

Joefish
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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 11:21 am

Do people still use Java? Really? Oh my.

bredman
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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 11:36 am

shirro said:


@JamesH - no you have it wrong. Raspberry Pi is now powered by Java(R) and if the foundation do not carry the Java(R) logo and pay a royalty to Oracle they will be in breach of Oracle's IP.


The price for the Raspberry Pi is now

$35 + tax + shipping + extortionate Oracle licensing fees + your first-born

I'm not exactly a fan of Oracle either.

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Jim Manley
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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 11:37 am

This is from January, long before the Foundation announced its trademark policy.

Java Mobile Edition allows the entire ecosystem of existing mobile device apps to run on the Pi, most of which can run securely in well under 1 MB of RAM each, and a lot of it is Internet-aware.  That's a lot better than most app bloatware that requires mountains of conflicting dependencies that provide little useful functionality, often leaks memory like a sieve, and includes nothing in the way of security, much less network security.

Java Standard Edition running with a just-in-time compiler is essentially as fast and uses the same RAM as functionally-equivalent C since it's compiled to the same object code.  Most apps don't need to be written in C and shouldn't be, especially if the implementers aren't sufficiently experienced in memory management, security, networking, etc.  Java Enterprise Edition is the only way legacy software can be run efficiently and securely on modern hardware, and wrapping it in Java is a piece of cake, vs. impossibly complicated in anything else.  I don't expect that SE or EE are going to be used much on the Pi, but, if the goal is educating students on serious software development in the real world, teaching Python, C, and Java will cover a lot of the professional waterfront.

As for Oracle, they're in business to make a profit just as much as companies like Broadcom (engineers' paychecks have to be paid for somehow), but, they have a long history of offering their commercial products as freeware up to certain sized databases, they've supported open-source for many years (not just Sun projects), and Java can be used without licensing fees for non-commercial purposes.  Here's some of the open-source/freeware projects they support:






Oracle's Linux Projects
OpenJDK
Oracle Unbreakable Linux Support
MySQL
Oracle VM | Xen
VirtualBox
OpenOffice
Enterprise Pack for Eclipse
Apache MyFaces Trinidad
Oracle+PHP




GlassFish Server Open Source Edition
NetBeans IDE
Hudson Continuous Integration
Oracle Database 10g Express Edition
Oracle Berkeley DB
Oracle+Python, Ruby/RoR, Groovy, etc.
InnoDB
Oracle SQL Developer
Oracle SQL Developer Data Modeler
Oracle JDeveloper




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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 11:40 am

Joefish said:


Do people still use Java? Really? Oh my.



It's actually a great language. What's not sp great is the bloated standards some folks keep on creating. I'm glad I never had to deal with the enterprise stuff and enjoyed creating "real" Java applications. I even had good uses for XML..

jamesh
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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 11:42 am

Jim Manley said:



Java Standard Edition running with a just-in-time compiler is essentially as fast and uses the same RAM as functionally-equivalent C since it's compiled to the same object code.


I don't believe that.


Most apps don't need to be written in C and shouldn't be, especially if the implementers aren't sufficiently experienced in memory management, security, networking, etc.


You can also write bad code in Java if you are not sufficiently experienced. Minecraft comes to mind.
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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 11:57 am

Joefish said:


Do people still use Java? Really? Oh my.


Yeah, Google made quite a good tablet and phone OS based on it.

Oh, wait the original post was about Java ME? In which case, no, nobody uses it.

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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 12:00 pm

JamesH said:


Jim Manley said:


Java Standard Edition running with a just-in-time compiler is essentially as fast and uses the same RAM as functionally-equivalent C since it's compiled to the same object code.


I don't believe that.


You really need to take off your blinders and realize that software is not a religion, it's a technology, and doesn't exist subject to your beliefs, thank goodness.  Try being a little bit scientific, just once.  Java is implemented in C and assembly, the underlying libraries are linked to the same object code that the C you write is, and therefore the efficiency is the same.  BTW, are you aware that the Mars rovers are running on software linked with FORTRAN libraries that were debugged long ago and work just perfectly fine, and that some of the upper-level code is written in, yes, Java.  Professional software engineers know when to use the right tool, and if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.  For your information, the world is made up of a lot more than nails.



Most apps don't need to be written in C and shouldn't be, especially if the implementers aren't sufficiently experienced in memory management, security, networking, etc.


You can also write bad code in Java if you are not sufficiently experienced. Minecraft comes to mind.


Oh, please, are you trying to tell me that all of that virus/worm/Trojan-ridden C code containing things like buffer-overflow vulnerabilities, memory leaks, pointer errors, etc., that's been in existence going back to the 1970s wasn't written by experienced programmers?  Riiiiight.
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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 12:23 pm

Just to remind eveyone, Java was developed by Sun as a sort of closed/open project and at least showed that Sun had a little bit of heart.

Oracle, on the otherhand……

Well let's just say that a corporation that feeds of some off the most morally bankrupt organisations in the world and gets fat on it surely must be the spawn of Satan. Or something like that.

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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 12:37 pm

Jim Manley said:


JamesH said:


Jim Manley said:


Java Standard Edition running with a just-in-time compiler is essentially as fast and uses the same RAM as functionally-equivalent C since it's compiled to the same object code.


I don't believe that.


You really need to take off your blinders and realize that software is not a religion, it's a technology, and doesn't exist subject to your beliefs, thank goodness.  Try being a little bit scientific, just once.  Java is implemented in C and assembly, the underlying libraries are linked to the same object code that the C you write is, and therefore the efficiency is the same.  BTW, are you aware that the Mars rovers are running on software linked with FORTRAN libraries that were debugged long ago and work just perfectly fine, and that some of the upper-level code is written in, yes, Java.  Professional software engineers know when to use the right tool, and if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.  For your information, the world is made up of a lot more than nails.



Most apps don't need to be written in C and shouldn't be, especially if the implementers aren't sufficiently experienced in memory management, security, networking, etc.


You can also write bad code in Java if you are not sufficiently experienced. Minecraft comes to mind.


Oh, please, are you trying to tell me that all of that virus/worm/Trojan-ridden C code containing things like buffer-overflow vulnerabilities, memory leaks, pointer errors, etc., that's been in existence going back to the 1970s wasn't written by experienced programmers?  Riiiiight.


No Jim, you're the one with the blinkers.
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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 12:37 pm

markb said:


Just to remind eveyone, Java was developed by Sun as a sort of closed/open project and at least showed that Sun had a little bit of heart.

Oracle, on the otherhand……

Well let"s just say that a corporation that feeds of some off the most morally bankrupt organisations in the world and gets fat on it surely must be the spawn of Satan. Or something like that.


You are giving the Spawn of Satan a bad name....
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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 12:49 pm

Jim, Java may very well be a good language but the owners are litigious. There are plenty of languages which are just as good which don't suffer from that problem.

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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 12:54 pm

shirro said:


Jim, Java may very well be a good language but the owners are litigious. There are plenty of languages which are just as good which don't suffer from that problem.


what are these other cross-platform, type safe, compile once (not once per target architecture) languages?

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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 1:18 pm

Compile once per target is not an issue in open source where source code is available and people would prefer to optimise per target. There are dozens of languages that can can compile to cross platform bytecode if you really need that for some reason.

Scratch ships on the Pi if you want to look at a project written in a high level , cross-platform, garbage collected, compile once language (it is called smalltalk - you may have heard of it).

I didn't address the type thing since there is the whole static vs dynamic thing which doesn't have a whole lot to do with how strongly typed a language is really.

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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 1:39 pm

I wasn't necessarily talking about the Pi, and sometimes compile once, deploy to many diff architectures is important. Its important in my job for example.

And you'll find that type safe languages are a necessity in many MOD projects which is one reason why Ada is still used.

I don't know 1 person that knows smalltalk. It might be ok for small projects or hobbies but its not even a consideration for large scale projects as far as i'm concerned

I'm yet to find a language that could adequately replace java for my uses no matter what i think about Oracle.

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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 2:19 pm

My server experience of it is that it's a mess of duplicated types, and my desktop experience of it has been that it's run more unpatched exploits than useful applications.  As for mobile apps – well, there are 'ecosystems' I'd liken a lot of them to, but let's not go there…

shirro said:


Yeah, Google made quite a good tablet and phone OS based on it.


I suppose the real question is, given the choice, would they do the same again?

As you say, the new owners have demonstrated themselves to be litigious, so personally I"d be very cautious of commissioning any major projects based on Java.

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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 6:24 pm

shirro said:


Jim, Java may very well be a good language but the owners are litigious. There are plenty of languages which are just as good which don't suffer from that problem.


I'm constantly amused by people who have no sense of context.  We're talking about the Pi here in a primarily educational context.  I seriously doubt anyone is going to ever develop serious commercial software products for the Pi, especially for educational applications.  In that context, there are no licensing fees, lawyers, or any of that other corporati (emphasis on the "rat" ).  None.  Zero.  Nada.  Zilch.

In other contexts, Java can often be licensed with no fees also, especially for smaller businesses.  For those who want to become intimate with lawyers, try violating the licensing of any profitable corporation - including Broadcom if you were to breach an NDA or attempted to reverse-engineer any of their protected intellectual property.  Corporate lawyers don't care who they're working for, as long as their billing gets paid - playing picky-choosy is folly with them.

Learning Java is just putting another arrow in your software development quiver, and when getting something developed that's secure, memory-conserving, UI-consistent, cross-platform, etc., in a reasonable amount of time is important, it's a good choice.  Students should be exposed to that option, probably after Python and before C, if they're going to pursue software development beyond just the educational context.

I've never said Java is the only programming language worth learning, as some apparently believe is the case for other languages.  The days of programming language bigotry are long passed, and the sooner the uninformed learn that, the better off the entire software development community will be.  Getting the wrong answer at the speed of heat, or not completing a project because of massive debugging being needed is not a very productive endeavo(u)r.
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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Wed May 09, 2012 11:21 pm

Jim Manley said:


shirro said:


Jim, Java may very well be a good language but the owners are litigious. There are plenty of languages which are just as good which don't suffer from that problem.


I'm constantly amused by people who have no sense of context.  We're talking about the Pi here in a primarily educational context.


Correct. And in that context there is hardly any Java code of significance. So not a lot is lost by avoiding it for me. It is a pointless argument really. If you want to use Java, then use it. Nobody is stopping you. Nothing is stopping me choosing not to install it.

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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Thu May 10, 2012 12:14 am

shirro said:


Correct. And in that context there is hardly any Java code of significance. So not a lot is lost by avoiding it for me. It is a pointless argument really. If you want to use Java, then use it. Nobody is stopping you. Nothing is stopping me choosing not to install it.


What people are completely missing is that the Pi isn't about you, me, JamesH, or anyone else who's already a software professional.  It's about what should be available to students, and not making up excuses for them to not be exposed to all of the most commonly-used development tools that each lead to varying levels of well-paying, self-confidence-building employment opportunities.  There are a lot of students who could never become crack system-level assembly or C software engineers, but they could certainly be gainfully employed developing in Java, Python, and other higher-level languages - the vast majority of opportunities will always be application and service oriented, not system-level.

That's not to say they shouldn't be exposed to system-level development, they most certainly should, and in depth if they demonstrate the interest and aptitude for it.  Heck, I encourage teaching binary at the gate level while, ironically, some here pooh-pooh getting into the deepest, darkest secrets of the GPU and blob code because ohhh, that would be very illegal without an NDA and not interesting to anyone anyway, no sirree - just keep moving along, nothing to see here!  Very amusing, indeed
The best things in life aren't things ... but, a Pi comes pretty darned close! :D
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Joefish
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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Thu May 10, 2012 10:57 am

Jim Manley said:

What people are completely missing is that the Pi isn't about you, me, JamesH, or anyone else who's already a software professional.  It's about what should be available to students...
It's more about what a commercial but non-profit organisation can afford to bundle in a distribution.  And when the rights holders have demonstrated that they're happy to tell you everything is free, but once you take them up on it they send you a bill, then there's reason to reconsider.

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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Thu May 10, 2012 11:24 am

Jim, Java may very well be a good language but the owners are litigious. There are plenty of languages which are just as good which don"t suffer from that problem.

yes, they are litigious, but in this case they are also pretty justified, as google knew several years before the current case.
noone has had a legal problem using java, google have a legal problem for knowingly reverse engineering javas API and copying their private IP

this is effectively what google do, copy other peoples stuff, this time they got caught.

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Jim Manley
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Re: Oracle support for Raspberry PI

Thu May 10, 2012 2:10 pm

Google's new motto after being found guilty of violating copyright law: "Do not get caught doing evil".
The best things in life aren't things ... but, a Pi comes pretty darned close! :D
"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire." -- W.B. Yeats
In theory, theory & practice are the same - in practice, they aren't!!!

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