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LemmeFatale
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Re: Your daily head/desk

Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:51 pm

jamesh wrote:And if he isn't, well, he's a bit dim it seems to me.
Or has an agenda, perhaps?

The poor article comes off as very deliberately misleading, to me.
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Re: Your daily head/desk

Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:09 pm

I guess we will know if next week he comes out with an article on the Beagle Bone Black or similar, and gives it a rave review....
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OtherCrashOverride
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Re: Your daily head/desk

Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:23 pm

If we are going to do conspiracy theories:

All the links to Raspberry Pi products he mentions have Amazon referrer ID's. So 'someone' is making money off them! :D

As for the qualifications of the author, everyone keeps telling me the Pi is for for kids who do not have computer skills. So I would think his experience is more applicable to them than those who are well versed in the technical issues and 'in the know' of where to shop. I would take the article as more of constructive criticism .

In the interest of illustration and contrast, here is something that is not constructive criticism:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/11 ... designers/

Ravenous
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Re: Your daily head/desk

Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:27 pm

OtherCrashOverride wrote: All the links to Raspberry Pi products he mentions have Amazon referrer ID's. So 'someone' is making money off them! :D
That's a very good point - because the recommended items he lists are pretty flippant items in most cases (wireless keyboard/touchpad, battery pack, etc.)

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Re: Your daily head/desk

Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:43 pm

OtherCrashOverride wrote:As for the qualifications of the author, everyone keeps telling me the Pi is for for kids who do not have computer skills. So I would think his experience is more applicable to them than those who are well versed in the technical issues and 'in the know' of where to shop. I would take the article as more of constructive criticism .
I take the point, but I think it is in most people's zone of competence to look for the cheapest prices. It would certainly be in his.
In the interest of illustration and contrast, here is something that is not constructive criticism:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/11 ... designers/
Yep. Linus goes off on one now and again. Nobody ever said that uber-nerds had good social skills.

Although I would disagree. Linus's post clearly says how to make things better: do not use non-discoverable buses. One assumes that translates as "make all buses discoverable" with a note to the effect that not doing so is really rather irritating in certain quarters. On the other had our dear journalist gives no hint how we might make him happy unless it is to give him $200 worth of computer hardware for $25.

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Re: Your daily head/desk

Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:50 pm

rurwin wrote:
OtherCrashOverride wrote:As for the qualifications of the author, everyone keeps telling me the Pi is for for kids who do not have computer skills. So I would think his experience is more applicable to them than those who are well versed in the technical issues and 'in the know' of where to shop. I would take the article as more of constructive criticism .
I take the point, but I think it is in most people's zone of competence to look for the cheapest prices. It would certainly be in his.
In the interest of illustration and contrast, here is something that is not constructive criticism:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/11 ... designers/
Yep. Linus goes off on one now and again. Nobody ever said that uber-nerds had good social skills.
If Torvalds really knew how SoC dev went he might not be so harsh. The engineers do what they are told, which is "Get It Out Of The Door As Soon As Possible", "Make The Die As Small As Possible", ""Reduce The Power Consumption As Much As Possible". All three of those compete with what Torvalds wants (and what he wants is sane). So it's not the engineers fault, its the market that is forcing it to happen like that
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OtherCrashOverride
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Re: Your daily head/desk

Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:14 pm

rurwin wrote:Linus's post clearly says how to make things better: do not use non-discoverable buses.
My take away was that he said to make things better: kill all ARM SoC designers.
rurwin wrote:On the other had our dear journalist gives no hint how we might make him happy unless it is to give him $200 worth of computer hardware for $25.
My impression was that the point of the article was that you get "nickle and dimed to death" before you have something that you can actually turn on and use. The counter argument presented in this thread is that these additions are either unnecessary or should be common household items ...
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Re: Your daily head/desk

Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:24 pm

OtherCrashOverride wrote:
rurwin wrote:Linus's post clearly says how to make things better: do not use non-discoverable buses.

My take away was that he said to make things better: kill all ARM SoC designers.
BTW: eben and jamesh - I will put u guys up in a hotel if you end up on the run from the linux kernel mafia! ;)

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Re: Your daily head/desk

Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:24 pm

OtherCrashOverride wrote:
Douglas6 wrote:This is a limited edition raspberry Pi case and is a beta version, future editions will include fingernail clippings for additional structural integrity.

Parts list:
A recent haircut
Lots of hair gel, I used L.A. Looks Absolute Styling Sport
(That post really made my day. Thanks Douglas6!)
Yeah I thought that hairy thing was the new Raspi mascot! Or a Tribble escaped from Star Trek. :geek: Douglas should do a build post on the Cases forum!

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Re: Your daily head/desk

Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:31 pm

OtherCrashOverride wrote:
OtherCrashOverride wrote:
rurwin wrote:Linus's post clearly says how to make things better: do not use non-discoverable buses.

My take away was that he said to make things better: kill all ARM SoC designers.
BTW: eben and jamesh - I will put u guys up in a hotel if you end up on the run from the linux kernel mafia! ;)
I'm software, so should be safe...it's Eben who need to look out!
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Re: Your daily head/desk

Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:04 pm

Ravenous wrote:
Yeah I thought that hairy thing was the new Raspi mascot!
You mean Babbage mk.1 :-)
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Re: Your daily head/desk

Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:00 pm

rurwin.
Yep. Linus goes off on one now and again. Nobody ever said that uber-nerds had good social skills.
Clearly Linus has very good social skills. I suggest it's impossible to manage the biggest software project in the world for so many years with out those skills.

Many complain that he "goes off on one now and again". Having lived and worked in Finland for some time all I can say is that this might be a cultural thing. As far as I can tell Finns will be honest, speak their mind, and speak it straight. No pussy footing around and tying to be oh so polite like the Brits or politically correct like the Yanks. No, if you are wrong you are wrong, better to come out with it straight away and fix the problem.

This level of honesty seems to be a shock to many. Better get used to it if you want to get anything done.
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Re: Your daily head/desk

Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:48 am

jamesh wrote:
rurwin wrote:He's up to date on Linux, Windows and OSX. There's no way he's that much of a heavy-iron zombie.

And unless he's an air-headed millionaire, it would appear that he decided to buy the most expensive gear he could get his hands on.

Maybe they said he could put it on expenses and keep it.
He *says* he is up to date on those things... He's obviously not a developer - more system admin from my reading, and therefore entirely the wrong person to be doing this sort of thing. It is rather a woeful effort of an article, full of cheap jibes, misconceptions, and downright idiocy. Like someone above said, he's trolling for page hits. Which is pretty sad really. And if he isn't, well, he's a bit dim it seems to me.
Well, my main role for the last 30-odd years has been sysadmin (Linux, Unix and various proprietary mainframe OS), and I reckon I could write a much fairer article than that one.

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Re: Your daily head/desk

Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:28 am

jamesh wrote:
If Torvalds really knew how SoC dev went he might not be so harsh. The engineers do what they are told, which is "Get It Out Of The Door As Soon As Possible", "Make The Die As Small As Possible", ""Reduce The Power Consumption As Much As Possible". All three of those compete with what Torvalds wants (and what he wants is sane). So it's not the engineers fault, its the market that is forcing it to happen like that
I'm pretty sure Torvalds was one of the engineers of the Transmeta Crusoe. Not quite a SOC but a processor none the less so he may have some kind of idea what it's like. Unless Transmeta was operated differently.

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Re: Your daily head/desk

Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:56 am

Jessie wrote:
jamesh wrote:
If Torvalds really knew how SoC dev went he might not be so harsh. The engineers do what they are told, which is "Get It Out Of The Door As Soon As Possible", "Make The Die As Small As Possible", ""Reduce The Power Consumption As Much As Possible". All three of those compete with what Torvalds wants (and what he wants is sane). So it's not the engineers fault, its the market that is forcing it to happen like that
I'm pretty sure Torvalds was one of the engineers of the Transmeta Crusoe. Not quite a SOC but a processor none the less so he may have some kind of idea what it's like. Unless Transmeta was operated differently.
Transmeta didn't have many customers like Samsung.....
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Re: Your daily head/desk

Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:22 am

Heater wrote:.... Having lived and worked in Finland for some time all I can say is that this might be a cultural thing. As far as I can tell Finns will be honest, speak their mind, and speak it straight. No pussy footing around and tying to be oh so polite like the Brits or politically correct like the Yanks. No, if you are wrong you are wrong, better to come out with it straight away and fix the problem....
Likewise, that's my experience over several years working occasionally mainly in Tampere & Helsinki. I met some very bright engineers there.

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Re: Your daily head/desk

Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:23 am

When I did my Pi I did buy it a separate power lead, out of choice, but I could have used the one from my Mobile phone. I have HDMI leads coming out of my ears, they came free with the various set top boxes I've had. I could have used my various SD cards and USB sticks easily, but I wanted dedicated ones for the Pi, just because it makes life easier IMHO, but again this was a choice. I already had wireless/USB keyboards/mice spare and ethernet cables by the ton.

That article was an exceedingly poor piece of journalism.

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Re: Your daily head/desk

Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:35 pm

If you can stand to read the comment thread, he is certainly getting a lot flack for several things he wrote. One commenter directed him to the Foundation's Facebook page to find projects done with the Pi. (Of course, that won't get his advertisers "eyeballs"...)

He did reply in a comment that he was targeted the "parts list" for people who *don't* have a lot of miscellaneous parts about the house. Presumably for the virtually non-technical household (Yes! We DO have A computer! And, FYI, having done Tier 2 Tech Support for a major ISP, I assure that most people do *not* have a spare Cat-5 cable in their houses.), or--I guess--people who discard spare bits and pieces. You know the type... They have a couple of coffee table books, kept in pristine condition on display (they certainly don't *read* them), spotless homes, and the cars are never more than 2 years old. The household computer is chosen for having a color that matches the decor.

That still doesn't explain why he bought a kit containing a pre-loaded SD card and a power block, and then bought another SD card and power block.

I have no idea *what* he intends to do with the USB-to-RS-232 cable or the modem. Time travel back to the 1970s so he can show off a REALLY FAST computer? I suppose we should be grateful that he didn't include a brand new, top of the line monitor (like the one MaximumPC used for this years "Dream Machine"...32" 3830x2160 for $3500). By comparison, my most recent monitor purchase was $10 for a 17" 1280x1024. But it is probably beneath his dignity to make periodic sweeps through second hand stores.

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Re: Your daily head/desk

Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:42 pm

Just to point out that the Maplin Raspberry Pi Board and Starter Kit (R45PI) is normally £80 or $127 USD. Their Raspberry Pi Advanced Kit (N34QG) is £110 or $175 USD.

Is that blatant rip-off or justifiable ?

I've built complete PC's for under £10 including monitors from bits I have lying around, but for those who aren't computer buffs, don't have their back bedroom kitted out like a warehouse, and don't accumulate bargains whenever they spot them, it's a bit more difficult to find things one needs. Cables and the like may be had for a quid each but, unless the local Poundland stocks them, there's usually postage to add on as well, and invariable you can't buy everything in one place.

So what is the real price of a Pi for a typical person ?

For people like myself it should not be much more than the cost of the board plus P&P, for others it is whatever Maplin and vendors charge. If they are lucky enough to have bits lying around or willing to bargain hunt; somewhere in between. Let's assume a mid-point to the Maplin starter kit; £55 or $87.

Obviously there's no single definitive answer, but it doesn't to me feel unreasonable to say the price of a Pi for the typical person is about twice the price of the Pi board itself and more if they want to get fancy.

Instead of saying it's not that expensive, when we don't know what it is costing people, we perhaps need a survey to find out exactly how much people have spent - the minimum they needed to get going, and what they spent to get what they desired ? A poll here is going to be tilted towards the techie and hardware literate but it might still be useful to see if theory matches reality.

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Re: Your daily head/desk

Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:27 pm

I think the lowest cost setup I have is a model B, plus a $10 case, Cat-5 cable (on hand), Speaker cable (on hand), speakers (on hand), power supply ($5), power cable (about $1).

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Re: Your daily head/desk

Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:48 am

I have only bought SD cards. Since they must on occasion pull double duty in a high end Canon camera they aren't the cheapest. About $18 to $25 USD. I bought a KB mouse combo with a unified dongle for $30 but I don't count that cost because I have plenty of corded USB KB and Mice that I could have used instead but chose the wireless option. The rest of the HDMI cable I had laying around. Later I bought a 3 pack of USB drives because I liked the speed and reliability better.

There are projects where all I needed was a cat 5 and an sd card and I would ssh through a computer or phone. So the setup can be quite inexpensive.

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Re: Your daily head/desk

Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:02 pm

Though I have a back room full of bits it seems I'm a bit of a luddite and most is old technology; PS/2 mice and keyboards, VGA monitors, almost any ISA and PCI card you could imagine and numerous PATA drives. Plenty of network and USB cables, routers, hubs and switches, video and audio cables, USB multi-port adapters, Wi-Fi adapters, USB-to-Serial, USB-to-Ethernet, USB HDD, USB memory sticks, but they are all non-essentials for a Pi.

Loads of stuff but not quite the right stuff and I still needed to acquire a fair number of bits to get a Pi up and running -

USB keyboard £2
USB mouse £1
SD Card £5
Micro-USB power cable £1
3A/5V PSU £5
HDMI cable £1

So all-in about £42 or $67.

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Re: Your daily head/desk

Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:58 pm

The Pirmoroni Start kit is £75 (which includes a RPi) could pretty much be used as a "standard" price for the "average" person/child/parent.

This does assume that they'd have access to an HDMI capable device(the composite TV out is really only a tool of last resort) and its this "free" access that either makes the RPi a cheap computer or not.

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