hippy
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:56 pm

Oakham wrote:The Pi is a great educational tool and at a price for use worldwide, why add features to make it an out-of-the-box computer ? defeats the point of the RPF original goal
Perhaps consider an enhanced Pi as a complement or parallel to the current Pi.

The current Pi is targeted at educating the programmers of the future but there are people out there who would like a Pi which was enhanced for things which are not necessarily educational purposes. There is no absolute reason the Foundation has to limit itself to purely educational use and anything targeted at another sector can still support educational goals.

People like what the Foundation has done and they 'got it right' - over $35 million worth of sales show that - so why not build on that if they can, and they are in a unique position to do so. If they can make a version which may have higher costs but is just as successful even more can be ploughed back into their educational goals.

There's no reason a company that builds cars for the learner driver should be constrained from using their skills and expertise in doing that from building cars for other people. I don't see why it should be any different for the Foundation.

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:18 pm

hippy wrote:
Oakham wrote:The Pi is a great educational tool and at a price for use worldwide, why add features to make it an out-of-the-box computer ? defeats the point of the RPF original goal
Perhaps consider an enhanced Pi as a complement or parallel to the current Pi.

The current Pi is targeted at educating the programmers of the future but there are people out there who would like a Pi which was enhanced for things which are not necessarily educational purposes. There is no absolute reason the Foundation has to limit itself to purely educational use and anything targeted at another sector can still support educational goals.

People like what the Foundation has done and they 'got it right' - over $35 million worth of sales show that - so why not build on that if they can, and they are in a unique position to do so. If they can make a version which may have higher costs but is just as successful even more can be ploughed back into their educational goals.

There's no reason a company that builds cars for the learner driver should be constrained from using their skills and expertise in doing that from building cars for other people. I don't see why it should be any different for the Foundation.
An enhanced Pi already exists, many manufacturers make them but at least twice the price of the Pi, that is my point, making a Pi as a competitor to an existing product would dilute the Pi community. I would rather have as many peiople as possible using, developing supporting what the Pi is now
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:28 pm

There seems to be two major threads going on here:

1) Incremental upgrades to the Pi using the same Soc.
2) A major revision with some new fangled dual/quad core Soc, multiple Gigs or RAM, etc etc.

Seems that 1) is doable and in fact has been going on already.

I can see a problem with 2).

Prior to the Pi there were precious few ARM boards of a similar nature available. I have some, they cost upwards of 200 euro each.

The Pi was a major break through in bringing the price way down. Hence the huge demand, hence distributors wanting to get in on the act and Sony wanting to manufacture them.

That success has spurred on many others to bring out ARM boards a cheaply as possible, having been shown there is a market out there to be tapped.

All of which makes it a very hard act to follow for the RPF. In a year or twos time when a new Pi might make sense the market will have moved on again making it even harder.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Jim Manley
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:26 pm

I continue to see comments that show a complete lack of understanding of the target audience for a Pi. For example, "It makes the difference between something a person will continue to use versus something a person will play with for a bit and then tuck away in a parts bin.", is the thought profile for a die-hard geek who has a parts bin, not a kid who's finally got something they could never have dreamed of before - a digital device that they can fool around with and do more things with than anything else with the same price. Every kid we've managed to get in front of a Pi at our Jams has wound up leaving with raised eyebrows and talking excitedly a mile-a-minute about what projects they want to try out.

I also see comments that reflect socially-inept loners who have somehow lost the ability to find their way out of their parents' basement, not the "normal" people (whomever they are) we're trying to get exposed to the Pi. If someone is having trouble writing to an SD card so that it will boot and can't figure out what some geeks are blathering about on the Internet, they should be seeking out help in their own neighborhood in the form of a Jam, hackspace, coder dojo, or other venues where geeks who speak Human may be found.
hippy wrote:There is no absolute reason the Foundation has to limit itself to purely educational use and anything targeted at another sector can still support educational goals.
Actually, yes it does have to limit itself to purely educational use - it's sorta like pregnancy, either it is or it ain't. If a feature supports an educational goal and can have other uses, that's fine, but anything that can't be traced back to an educational purpose is strictly verboten (for example, if it had hardware encryption built-in that's only used by the financial/business sectors). The Foundation is the equivalent of a U.S. 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation (UK charity) with a self-defined mission of performing an educational service to the public. The Foundation has to be very careful that they toe that line in everything that they do, or what little money they have garnered could all be sucked into some lawyers' already-overflowing coffers. They've already put extreme pressure on the low end of the computing market to the point where we might just see some platforms evaporate at some point. If you don't think the electronics giants aren't watching what the Foundation is doing with a jaundiced eye, you need to spend some time eyeballing them.

We're closing in on two million boards in the wild by the end of this year and we all know people who have hoarded upwards of a dozen in their evil-genius headquarters in their parents' basement. However, somewhere around 20% have found their way into the hands of students, according to Eben's TED interview earlier this year posted above, so there is still hope for Humanity. Obviously, once we have Pii in classrooms in significant numbers, those will become another venue where help can be obtained.

No one can use Gigabit Ethernet on a Pi for Internet access except for the lucky few who have Googlenet (e.g., the two Kansas Cities in Missouri and Kansas). Even then, you won't be able to write to either the SD card or a USB flash/hard drive at GB/s speeds due to their data rate limitations, even if the 1.8-volt mode were available on the SD card interface. If you're having contention issues on your LAN, you need to learn about network segmenting - oh, you're in luck, the Pi is meant for learning - congratulations!

I do have to say that the SD card connector is brittle - I've now joined the Broken Slot Club ... twice. However, it was at least as much my fault because I had left an SD card in and put the board in a backpack worn while biking, and the card wound up getting torqued enough to snap off the card guide on one side. It's easy enough to fix by gluing a piece of plastic over the top to constrain the card, but I need to be more careful in the future.

The reboot-upon-insertion-of-a-USB-device is definitely a power supply issue - I've been warning everyone about having a suitable power supply since April 2012, but people just refuse to listen. Go ahead, keep doing the same thing, expecting the outcome to change.

If you want quality audio, take it from the HDMI port, as the stereo analog audio port is really more for bleeps and bloops in games, not streaming philharmonic orchestral performances at performing arts center levels of reproduction.

If you want a minimal case, either "borrow" some Lego blocks or go print, cut out, and fold up one of these:

http://elinux.org/RPi_Cases#Raspberry_P ... e_.28PP.29

http://elinux.org/RPi_Cases#Printable_M ... ld-up_Case

http://elinux.org/RPi_Cases#Tape_Case

http://elinux.org/RPi_Cases#DiscPi_Case

If you're going to put on heat sinks, then go whole-hog and put on big automobile fins - they're so much more obnoxious and just as functional! :lol:

I wish we could have 1.8 volts for the SD card interface to enable highest-speed SD card access, but it looks like that's not in the (printed-circuit) cards for the foreseeable future.

While Broadcom might continue production of the BCM2835 indefinitely as long as the sales run rate remains near a million units per year and covers their costs, I wonder if the same is true of the RAM manufacturer - that might be the limiting factor. At least 512 MB is still a viable quantity for smartphones, although many tablets have much moved on to at least 1 GB.

For the history-challenged among us who think that the continuous march of technology today makes things obsolete overnight, you should be aware that the Apple ][ and ][e series of systems sold for 16 years! I don't expect that the current Pi models will have quite that longevity if for no other reason than that some of the connectors may no longer be available 15 years from now.

A real challenge that a new Pi model will face is whether the volume of sales will continue, regardless of what improvements it might have over the current models. I hope that the educational market will start to become significant in size in time to ensure that demand continues after the Nerdocracy has been lured away by The Next Shiny Bauble that becomes a gotta-have Internet craze. The bad news is that the educational acquisition process is glacial, but the good news is that the educational acquisition process is glacial. It's so slow to react that if it does start buying Pii in quantity, it will take years for it to stop buying them, even if someone were to order that to happen immediately. This is due to the fact that most acquisition decisions are made at the district level in the U.S., and there are 13,809 
districts governing 132,656
 schools across the U.S. alone.

No one seems to have mentioned Liz's wheels and a sandwich lately - guys, ya gotta keep yer ladies happy or you're going to lose functionality, not gain it! Of course I was talking about the Pi, what were you thinking you old codger, or was it you old geezer? :lol:
The best things in life aren't things ... but, a Pi comes pretty darned close! :D
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:56 pm

Heater wrote:All of which makes it a very hard act to follow for the RPF. In a year or twos time when a new Pi might make sense the market will have moved on again making it even harder.
These threads are fun, but sometimes miss the point a bit. The RPF is a charitable organisation founded to promote, simulate and facilitate education in computer science (off the top of my head). The official version is here...

"THE OBJECT OF THE CHARITY IS TO FURTHER THE ADVANCEMENT OF EDUCATION OF ADULTS AND CHILDREN, PARTICULARLY IN THE FIELD OF COMPUTERS, COMPUTER SCIENCE AND RELATED SUBJECTS"

It just happened that making a small cheap computer was a step on the way to achieving that goal.

In so doing, they became the fastest growing computer company of all time, but that was not their goal or aim.

The hardware is already there, although no doubt there will be incremental improvements from time to time. As MahJong mentioned above, we have yet to see the full extent of the "other stuff" that's no doubt going on in the background for the educational release.

As Eben says in his talks "we're only just getting going" (paraphrased from memory).

There will also, no doubt, be "better versions" released at some point in the future, to facilitate the RPF goals, but the hardware as it is is sufficient to further the goals. And there's so many add-ons available, and lots more in the pipeline, that any hardware gaps will be filled by others.

What is currently "not quite there yet, but might be a lot closer than we know" (zero insider knowledge here) is the educational materials needed to help kick-start the "education-wave". It's coming. Can't you feel it? :lol:
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:23 pm

Jim Manley wrote:I continue to see comments that show a complete lack of understanding of the target audience for a Pi.
Its a device, not a religion.
Jim Manley wrote:I also see comments that reflect socially-inept loners who have somehow lost the ability to find their way out of their parents' basement, not the "normal" people (whomever they are) we're trying to get exposed to the Pi.
This is why conflict follows you on the forum. It is expected as a grown up that you should be setting an example for the kids, not calling people names like a child.

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:26 pm

@alexeames.

Actually Alex you are quoting some of my previous posts almost word for word.

I did not really state my perspective about "hard act to follow" very well. Seems to me that in a year or two or whenever, the current Soc and or RAM will become untenable.
Thus demanding a major revision to continue the Pi path.

But if by that time we are tipping free ARM boards out of our cornflake packets in the morning, provided by a market stimulated by the Pi it self, then it may not be worth the RPF's resources to try and make a major Pi revision.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:47 pm

Heater wrote:But if by that time we are tipping free ARM boards out of our cornflake packets in the morning, provided by a market stimulated by the Pi it self, then it may not be worth the RPF's resources to try and make a major Pi revision.
I think we've seen comments in recent interviews that alluded towards that scenario. I think the RPF guys are a pretty 'on the ball' bunch as regards what next. It must be frustrating for them to not be able to reveal their plans (unless they enjoy watching us speculate - laughing at how badly we're getting it wrong, but when someone actually strikes a chord, wondering if they've got any leaks).
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:17 pm

Jim Manley wrote:
hippy wrote:There is no absolute reason the Foundation has to limit itself to purely educational use and anything targeted at another sector can still support educational goals.
Actually, yes it does have to limit itself to purely educational use - it's sorta like pregnancy, either it is or it ain't. If a feature supports an educational goal and can have other uses, that's fine, but anything that can't be traced back to an educational purpose is strictly verboten (for example, if it had hardware encryption built-in that's only used by the financial/business sectors). The Foundation is the equivalent of a U.S. 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation (UK charity) with a self-defined mission of performing an educational service to the public.
Congratulations Jim, it's twins!

http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/sea ... foundation

http://opencorporates.com/companies/gb/08207441

Arguing about the finer points of a piece of hardware is all fine and dandy (it's what people are good at, after all), but in an education context I'd venture that things like bundled software, peripherals, supplementary learning materials and provision of walk-on-water support is mebbe an order of magnitude more important if one is to successfully augment a computer engineering curriculum. The $35 cost of the board is only a small part of the cost of the per-seat package and if it needs a revision in order for the package to suit the customers' requirements then that's what will happen - assuming that the raison d'être is still to aid teaching of computer science in UK schools. Who's to say that an "educational box set" would include the same hardware as the "consumer" version anyway?

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:39 pm

Lob0426 wrote:Sorry but a couple of more points after W.H. Heydt's comments.

The tweaks like "to regulators" would probably require a new PCB.
There aren't better regulators that could be substituted for the existing ones without changing the board? Heck...at a production rate of 1 to 2 million Pis per year, some enterprising company might decide to *make* a regulator to fit the bill.
Rounding corners (similar to the Beagle Bone Black) would need a new PCB. That's a pretty good sized radius.
Fair enough. There are connectors too close to the corners to do that, and it would "break" all the current case designs.
How much effort, time and money would just these small changes cost? A new BOM for sure, Testing and a change at the production lines.
All true, but it was done last year...three times. Once switch from polyfuses to zero ohm resistors. Once to switch to Rev. 2 boards. Once to switch to 512MB RAM. All in all, it's not impossible to do if it is a genuine improvement.
Sorry but it is likely the next Revision or Model will have a different SoC. Memory size is a moot issue as it will have at least 512MB, they are not going to take a step back there if I am guessing correctly. The performance benefits of a newer ARM core, if it can be had, will drive the design. Overall cost is going to be the biggest consideration of all. I think we can bet on the $25 to $35 range is likely written in stone. It comes down to what is the work, cost and time worth?
I agree on all points. You'll notice that one of the poits I made about a new board was "512MB RAM, with the *ability* make it more". Cost is going to be the primary driver, but so will parts availability. If there are no more BCM2835s to be had, a new SoS will be needed, and that--automatically--means a new board design, with all that that implies.
What I think we may see. My best guess that is!
A newer ARM core not much faster in MHz. The newer ARM cores are faster at the same MHz anyway.
Yes. I would expect the "not much faster" to be 1GHz, possibly overclockable to somewhere between 1.2 GHz and 1.5GHz.
The Video Core IV GPU in the SoC. A lot of their time was in developing for the GPU.
If any new GPU is "upwardly compatible" with the VC4, then there is no need to lock in VC4 use. Besides, the RPF isn't going to dictating SOC features. That would be far to expensive at the Pi price point. They'll take what they can find that keeps costs in line.
I think they will try for a SoC with a native Ethernet. That way they can ditch the LAN9512 chip. Gain board space
A single USB. Again will let them ditch the LAN9512 chip and its cost and board space.
From what I am given to understand, there will still be another chip needed, as the PHY circuits aren't normally built onto the same chip with the MAC circuits. So likely no space gained there.

I disagree with the "one USB", though. The ability to set up a complete Pi (video, internet, k/b, mouse) with no external devices is a real plus. Thus, I think 2 USB ports on the $35 model is pretty much a given. It'd be a real plus if the SoC itself can handle both, though.
Probably still 512MB but possibly a faster type. Future possibility of more RAM. Future availability will be the factor for change.
Again, I agree. But having a chip that *can* handle more is--I suspect--a given. As soon as prices come down *enough*, it would be possible to move to more memory. Along with this "don't go backwards" on memory, I would expect a future model to stick with 100Mb/s Ethernet. There isn't really enough to be gained for the target market to justify 1Gb/s Ethernet as a requirement.
Keeping the GPU means they can keep the current camera. And it would reduce the time to bring the new board to market.
Again, I think this is an "upward compatibility" issue, not a requirement.
The problems I see with my own prediction.
That "native" Ethernet is going to require OS changes. Probably can be fixed at recompile.
Finding a SoC that has those specs.
Yep! a whole new PCB and BOM.
If the BCM2835 goes away--and eventually it will--then the RPF ought to have a new design in hand, and in production as the last original Pis roll off the line. I would expect that the RPF will get enough advance notice of the end of the BCM2835 to be ready for that day when it comes.
And I can guarantee that the Foundation is not going to tell us until they have dropped it into their distributors hands. :lol:
You betcha. The PRF is scared of the Osbourne Effect...though one wonders what kind of price "the last Raspberry Pi ever made" will fetch.

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:48 pm

Voice #1 Die Hard; The Pi is all it needs to be and only an educational tool. Your stupid to think it will change, and the parts will be available forever (well at least a few years is forever in electronics): Ecstatic with the Raspberry Pi and believe it is the only board to buy for everyone. Everyone else is a heretic!

Voice #2 All In; The RasPi needs Dual cores 4GB of RAM, needs NAND, needs USB 3.0, Needs SATA, Needs Gigabit LAN, Needs whatever hits the market tomorrow: Are not even happy with the Cubieboard or a Panda Board. Looking for a Super RasPi! Everyone else is a religious fanatic!

Voice #3 Moderate view; A few changes (new revision) would improve the RasPi for its designed Goal. Nobody listens to them anyway! After all the moderate voice knows nothing. Happy with the Raspberry Pi: dabbling with other boards. Heretics to Voice #1, fanatics to Voice #2.

Voice #4 Moderate but looks to the future; The RasPi is going to have to eventually change, parts are going to go end of life. There is nothing really wrong with the current RasPi. It meets, if not exceeds, the Foundations Goal. There will have to be a future alternative: Also dabbling with other boards but would like to see a better RasPi. Being ignored as usual! Heretics to voices #1 and #2, fanatics to voice #3

This sounds like a really bad quartet too me! A consensus is likely never to be reached and so the music is always going to be bad. It is a good thing that the Foundation is not a democracy, as it would not survive its 2nd year. I think a duet of Voice #3 and Voice #4 is probably closer to the truth than either Voice #1 or Voice #2.

All of these are caveated by the fact that another manufacturer may put out a product that meets the foundations goals. So then would the foundation promote that product? It probably would, but then how does it continue operations if the income from the Raspberry Pi sales stop due to electronic senility? So do they keep their hand in the game or do they go to a strictly donation based model( a think tank)? Or do they just drop out of the game until the next cycle of reduced computer knowledge creeps up on them again? Would they be there to pick up the torch again?
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:11 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Lob0426 wrote:Sorry but a couple of more points after W.H. Heydt's comments.

The tweaks like "to regulators" would probably require a new PCB.
There aren't better regulators that could be substituted for the existing ones without changing the board? Heck...at a production rate of 1 to 2 million Pis per year, some enterprising company might decide to *make* a regulator to fit the bill.
Rounding corners (similar to the Beagle Bone Black) would need a new PCB. That's a pretty good sized radius.
Fair enough. There are connectors too close to the corners to do that, and it would "break" all the current case designs.
How much effort, time and money would just these small changes cost? A new BOM for sure, Testing and a change at the production lines.
All true, but it was done last year...three times. Once switch from polyfuses to zero ohm resistors. Once to switch to Rev. 2 boards. Once to switch to 512MB RAM. All in all, it's not impossible to do if it is a genuine improvement.
Sorry but it is likely the next Revision or Model will have a different SoC. Memory size is a moot issue as it will have at least 512MB, they are not going to take a step back there if I am guessing correctly. The performance benefits of a newer ARM core, if it can be had, will drive the design. Overall cost is going to be the biggest consideration of all. I think we can bet on the $25 to $35 range is likely written in stone. It comes down to what is the work, cost and time worth?
I agree on all points. You'll notice that one of the poits I made about a new board was "512MB RAM, with the *ability* make it more". Cost is going to be the primary driver, but so will parts availability. If there are no more BCM2835s to be had, a new SoS will be needed, and that--automatically--means a new board design, with all that that implies.
What I think we may see. My best guess that is!
A newer ARM core not much faster in MHz. The newer ARM cores are faster at the same MHz anyway.
Yes. I would expect the "not much faster" to be 1GHz, possibly overclockable to somewhere between 1.2 GHz and 1.5GHz.
The Video Core IV GPU in the SoC. A lot of their time was in developing for the GPU.
If any new GPU is "upwardly compatible" with the VC4, then there is no need to lock in VC4 use. Besides, the RPF isn't going to dictating SOC features. That would be far to expensive at the Pi price point. They'll take what they can find that keeps costs in line.
I think they will try for a SoC with a native Ethernet. That way they can ditch the LAN9512 chip. Gain board space
A single USB. Again will let them ditch the LAN9512 chip and its cost and board space.
From what I am given to understand, there will still be another chip needed, as the PHY circuits aren't normally built onto the same chip with the MAC circuits. So likely no space gained there.

I disagree with the "one USB", though. The ability to set up a complete Pi (video, internet, k/b, mouse) with no external devices is a real plus. Thus, I think 2 USB ports on the $35 model is pretty much a given. It'd be a real plus if the SoC itself can handle both, though.
Probably still 512MB but possibly a faster type. Future possibility of more RAM. Future availability will be the factor for change.
Again, I agree. But having a chip that *can* handle more is--I suspect--a given. As soon as prices come down *enough*, it would be possible to move to more memory. Along with this "don't go backwards" on memory, I would expect a future model to stick with 100Mb/s Ethernet. There isn't really enough to be gained for the target market to justify 1Gb/s Ethernet as a requirement.
Keeping the GPU means they can keep the current camera. And it would reduce the time to bring the new board to market.
Again, I think this is an "upward compatibility" issue, not a requirement.
The problems I see with my own prediction.
That "native" Ethernet is going to require OS changes. Probably can be fixed at recompile.
Finding a SoC that has those specs.
Yep! a whole new PCB and BOM.
If the BCM2835 goes away--and eventually it will--then the RPF ought to have a new design in hand, and in production as the last original Pis roll off the line. I would expect that the RPF will get enough advance notice of the end of the BCM2835 to be ready for that day when it comes.
And I can guarantee that the Foundation is not going to tell us until they have dropped it into their distributors hands. :lol:
You betcha. The PRF is scared of the Osbourne Effect...though one wonders what kind of price "the last Raspberry Pi ever made" will fetch.
I am sorry Mister Heydt any consensus in this post is not allowed :lol: haven't you been reading anything here? :D

I do not see an immediate need for a "revision" at all. The RasPi is fine as it is. If a revision was to be needed then a few changes would be nice. Revision 2.0 was well done, with a little more experience under their belt now there are possibly things that they would like to fix. I think the real core of this post is whether there will need to be a future "Model".

I see the memory being a real problem in the future, not size, but availability. Those production runs for this memory type are taking time from that manufacturers ability to make a higher profit product. As far as I know only the Raspberry Pi is using the 256MB and 512MB modules. Roku2 was using a 64MB module. I am sure there are some other products using this memory but they are probably at or near end of life.

Even with the RasPi nearing 2 million units the BCM2835 has to end its run sometime. It is better to look for the next candidate than to wait until you hit that wall. That wall could be next year or 3 years from now. I am sure RasPi sales have extended its run. A quick look at the Broadcom site does not show the BCM2835 as part of its current line up. It is still listed if you use their search. It has clearly bee superseded by newer models but is still available (yeah I know; No DUH). Everything else on the board will be good for years, probably even the LAN9512, which is more widely used than I thought.

The first 10 reached some pretty high prices on Ebay. If it comes to that, the Foundation should hold onto the Last ten! :lol: They could probably rake in the cash on the Alpha's that are still around!
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:26 pm

Lob0426 wrote:It is better to look for the next candidate than to wait until you hit that wall.
One of the factors that gets overlooked in the Pi ecosystem is what I stated in another thread: The PI gets by with a little help from its friends.

This means that those who have technical skills contribute their time and knowledge to patch software, create ports, and answer questions, etc. This is a resource that is being depleted by the stagnation of the platform as they move on to more interesting and capable devices. The worst thing that can happen to the community is for it to adopt the "RPi is only for poor kids" mentality. An inclusive "RPi is for anyone who owns one" is more conducive to the longevity of the device and furthering of the Foundation's goals. It should be about leveraging the strengths of everyone involved rather than saying "you don't belong".

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:07 am

As I understand it the Foundation designed the Raspberry Pi for students to learn. Not to only teach poor kids. The pricing is so that poorer schools can afford it for education. So the price is a big deal with them. The Raspberry Pi is not an electronic version of welfare!

I think they have done a pretty good job of being "inclusive". Lots of support and Foundation time has went into things like XBMC that has only a minimal educational use, it actually distracts from the educational view of the Raspberry Pi, in my opinion. That is the same with things like Quake, Open Arena and the other games that have been ported over. Also they really do not need the GPIO on the board if it was only for "programming". But that has worked itself into its own educational tool.

Off Topic:
The Educators in here act like the Raspberry Pi is universally known throughout the world. It is well known but even here in the U.S. there are places that know almost nothing about it. My town is one of those. There are some enthusiast here but I am not sure our schools have any idea what a Raspberry Pi is or what it could do for their students. That is not likely to change either. Strap a RasPi to a football and that would give it the most exposure it is going to see here! I have commented several times about this in the forums. Not one of these educators has ever asked how this could be changed. They put all of their energy into their own areas (districts). It is a fend for yourself situation. I am not an educator and I can see the problem but outsiders are not welcome inside the education community.

For the Foundations part they travel the world trying to get the word out, but like politicians (sorry but its true) they try to get the most bang for their buck. So they go to L.A. and New York and other big cities where there are large populations. But as always is the case, the Rural areas where there are more of the problems that they would like to see cured, the word does not get there!
This is also how it is going to be! At least until someone can figure a way to get the Raspberry Pi known farther out in the sticks!

Back on topic:
You are right that they, the community support, could dwindle without something new for them to play with. That is just how it is. I hope that that will not happen here, but you just never know, with all the shiny new toys that are appearing with more regularity.
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:31 am

Lob0426 wrote:The Raspberry Pi is not an electronic version of welfare!
I laughed so hard when I read that. Thanks! That made my day. I should put that in my forum sig.
Lob0426 wrote:But as always is the case, the Rural areas where there are more of the problems that they would like to see cured, the word does not get there!
Yes, there are many rural locations where ...
Jim Manley wrote:I also see comments that reflect socially-inept loners who have somehow lost the ability to find their way out of their parents' basement, not the "normal" people (whomever they are) we're trying to get exposed to the Pi. If someone is having trouble writing to an SD card so that it will boot and can't figure out what some geeks are blathering about on the Internet, they should be seeking out help in their own neighborhood in the form of a Jam, hackspace, coder dojo, or other venues where geeks who speak Human may be found.
... the lack of Jam, hackspace, coder dojo, or other venues does not imply that one is "socially-inept", "lost the ability to find their way out of their parents' basement", or abnormal.

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:56 am

Lob0426 wrote: Off Topic:
The Educators in here act like the Raspberry Pi is universally known throughout the world. It is well known but even here in the U.S. there are places that know almost nothing about it. My town is one of those.
I could quip that that's because nobody lives in Susanville, CA. (And, yes, I know where it is...at least approximately.) But I agree with you. Even where I live, in Vallejo, CA--a much larger town than Susanville, and on the Northern edges of the SF Bay Area--I don't think the Pi is well known.

I do have a couple of levers, though. The first is that my grandson has just started Kindergarden. I'm keeping an eye on his progress so I'll know when it's time to give him his own Pi. It also gives me some reasonable access to his school, through teachers and admins. I'm planning a slow campaign for Pis in school from the bottom up. (As opposed to Jim Manley who is in a position to do it top down...)

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:14 am

No kids in school, so no voice here. It is a shame that there is not someone up high in California that knows what this is all about. That's where Apple and Microsoft have the advantage, the money to go straight to the top. :roll:

All (well almost) technology is revolving around computers these days. It is almost to the point of being an essential life skill :shock: Unless you are just a pure consumer that never does anything but buy new.

I still find it fun to re-purpose stuff, So I have to keep up at least a little bit. ;)
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:16 am

Hiya

With the naming so far I suspect a 3rd version would seem a little fishy...

PiCCCCCCs

and it's own version of Linux...



Pisces in a Nutshell:
Pisces is the sign of mysticism, mystery and the spiritual unknown. Pisces live in two worlds, the real world and the spiritual or mystical world where they interpret what they see into what they want. They do this to avoid all the realities of pain and suffering in the world. They have extremes of emotions and feel both good and bad intensively. Pisces have formidable intuitive ability. Most Pisces are somehow involved with occult or spiritualism. Pisces are very good at understanding people for they have the ability to delve into the psyche and see behind a person's motivations. Pisces are prone to drug addiction and indulging lifestyles because of their eternal search for themselves and their fear of confrontation and having to change a situation, also they justify drug use by allowing it to get closer with their 'spiritual selves'. Once they aware this is why they are doing it, it will be easier to kick the habit. Pisces are not the pushovers that they may seem, in fact they have strength of character and will stand up for what they believe in and and they can do hard work for something they believe in. They can be very lazy but only in matters that they do not care about. Pisces is the most sensitive of all zodiac signs.




Oh and a couple of extra USB ports please.










........ If the production lines are split to make "normal" Pis and "connectorless" Pis, some of the advantage of the mass production assembly line is lost...and the price of both versions goes up.

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:28 am

If extra ??? ports are required use an add-on board:

http://elinux.org/RPi_Expansion_Boards

See - everything one desires, wishes, has fantasy dreams about, someone somewhere can provide it.

Not everyone wants these features and are happy with Pi and like paying the small amount..........

UFB

So bottom line is these threads are really to do with people who are too lazy to find a solution themselves, what they really desire is a NEW Windows 8 Tower System for the price of 3 Pi's
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:32 pm

Faster Processor, More memory, maybe more ports, including more GPIO pins?

And what are the header-sized holes for, just underneath the main headers, and in-between the yellow screen connector, and the headphone socket?
I'm happy to help.
https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=51794 - List of games that work on the Pi.

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:02 pm

mrpi64 wrote:Faster Processor, More memory, maybe more ports, including more GPIO pins?
Yes all are available in an alternative product, but not for £25.00, try £150++++
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rpdom
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:23 pm

mrpi64 wrote:And what are the header-sized holes for, just underneath the main headers, and in-between the yellow screen connector, and the headphone socket?
Only for system tests and things that people outside of Broadcom don't need or have access to. Originally they had pins in, but that was pointless for 99.999999% of Pis, so were removed.

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Lob0426
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:31 pm

@Oakham:
Why do you continually knock down any suggestions in this post?

At least try to give valid reasons why their suggestions will not make it into a new version. The post name is "suggestions for version 3". So they are on topic. You just do not seem to like the topic. These people obviously want to see these things on the board rather than as an add on. You are correct that there are many add ons.

If you read my sarcastic post above, a ways up, you sound like Voice #1, anybody who makes a suggestion is a heretic!
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Oakham
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:03 pm

Sorry if you felt I was dissing the thread, I was just pointing out that a higher price point PI IMO is not required all the while the Broadcom SoC is available..


My suggestions for future PI = not needed (apart from more memory which is not feasible)

Reason for not needed = other boards available which already have the the must-have features

If complete with other boards = fragmentation of the existing Pi Community


Regurgitation: add-on boards bring the Pi to the price point of the competitors, therefore one can only pay for what they need !


I will now go away and lie down in a darkened room with the Magic Mushrooms

Maybe buy this ??? http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... 63&t=53875
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:28 pm

My biggest problem with the Pi are the SD cards.

I get errors out of nowhere far too often.

Just yesterday, working on a project. Walking an SD card between a model A and model B. Always being careful.

Then out of nowhere the card has tons of errors, have to stop everything and make a new card.

It really disappoints me that I can't trust that the Pi is going to be reliable no matter how careful I am.

That's when I start wondering when Arduino or Beagle are going to drop a nice HD video chip on one of their new Linux boards and I would have to leave the Pi behind.

I just greatly dislike the 'works fine! oh, now the card is trashed' experiences I've had with the Pi.

Really wish this could be locked down with some trick. Like the write protect switch on the cards actually working on the Pi. Blocking a pin connection between the card and pi? Maybe a never-write option in the config. Maybe a place for users to solder in some memory where the Pi can boot from instead.

But the best to me would be to drop the SD card for something much more stable.

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