W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11107
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:28 pm

ric96 wrote:armv7 and sata port
Cubieboard, $50. You also get 1GB RAM. For another $10 on top of that you can get the Cubieboard2 with a dual-core ARMv7.

I agree that I'd like to see the RPF do something similar (especially because I think they'd do it *better*), but saying that's what you want opens the obvious rejoinder that you can buy exactly that *today*. It just costs a bit more. It's really a matter of this: Which do you value more? The price of a Pi? Or the features of other boards?

Possibly the true revolution sparked by the RPF is the sheer popularity of the Pi. Part of that is the price point. Part of that is scale of the support community. Part of it may simply be that it's "railroad time" and...here's the Pi! Regardless of the reasons, small scale computing will never be the same.

AndrewdAzotus
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:07 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:44 am

W. H. Heydt wrote: Cubieboard, $50. You also get 1GB RAM. For another $10 on top of that you can get the Cubieboard2 with a dual-core ARMv7.
I think I've mentioned it before, but there's also the Utilite which I like the look of.
W. H. Heydt wrote:I agree that I'd like to see the RPF do something similar (especially because I think they'd do it *better*), but saying that's what you want opens the obvious rejoinder that you can buy exactly that *today*. It just costs a bit more. It's really a matter of this: Which do you value more? The price of a Pi? Or the features of other boards?
For me, the limits of the Pi are a part of its charm. For me, it's not "I want bigger and better" but "how much can I squeeze out my Pi"

Its name is based on the old BBC Micro and when that was leading edge technology, each game was better than the last because programmers pushed the limits of what was possible with the hardware further and further with ever more efficient code.

There was none of this "Oh, my program is slow, I'll buy a faster processor / more ram / a better graphics card / what ever." What we had was all there was and we coded better. I can remember writing one program and space was so tight I was hiding data in the video ram which was, consequently, displayed on the screen!

User avatar
Lob0426
Posts: 2198
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:30 pm
Location: Susanville CA.
Contact: Website

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:27 am

Sorry but Utilite and Trimslice are completely out of the picture due to price. For what they want for a Trimslice I can buy a pretty decent desktop PC.

Utilite claims $99 but you have to buy memory and storage for it to work. So I could buy, or dig up, a used PC that is cheaper than that, and better performance. I almost could beat that price for a new box at Wal-Mart! It has been billed as a "Rival" but is really too pricey for rival status. It does have some nice stuff and would fill the bill for some of the Super Pi people.
512MB version 2.0 as WordPress Server
Motorola Lapdock with Pi2B
Modded Rev 1.0 with pin headers at USB

http://rich1.dyndns.tv/
(RS)Allied ships old stock to reward its Customers for long wait!

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11107
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:00 am

AndrewdAzotus wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: Cubieboard, $50. You also get 1GB RAM. For another $10 on top of that you can get the Cubieboard2 with a dual-core ARMv7.
I think I've mentioned it before, but there's also the Utilite which I like the look of.
W. H. Heydt wrote:I agree that I'd like to see the RPF do something similar (especially because I think they'd do it *better*), but saying that's what you want opens the obvious rejoinder that you can buy exactly that *today*. It just costs a bit more. It's really a matter of this: Which do you value more? The price of a Pi? Or the features of other boards?
For me, the limits of the Pi are a part of its charm. For me, it's not "I want bigger and better" but "how much can I squeeze out my Pi"

Its name is based on the old BBC Micro and when that was leading edge technology, each game was better than the last because programmers pushed the limits of what was possible with the hardware further and further with ever more efficient code.

There was none of this "Oh, my program is slow, I'll buy a faster processor / more ram / a better graphics card / what ever." What we had was all there was and we coded better. I can remember writing one program and space was so tight I was hiding data in the video ram which was, consequently, displayed on the screen!
I try to use the board that fits what I want to do. I use a Pi for an alarm clock. My wife is very happy with how it works. She's also comfortable enough with *nix not to object to remotely logging in to kill the mplayer process when she wants to turn off the streamed radio station we use. (She got started with unix on bsd 2.9 on a PDP 11/70 at Berkeley as a typist. She is pretty thoroughly non-technical in most senses of the word.)

I also use Pi as "dumb terminals" running PuTTY having basically untrained volunteers doing convention registration data entry. People have ridiculed me in these forums for that usage. I don't care. The Pis worked very well this year and I intend to keep using them.

For my "servers" that those Pis connect to, I wanted something a little more...robust. For that I'm using Cubieboards (yes, plural, as in running two with MySQL in a master-slave set up so I have a "hot" backup in case the main one goes down). I'm seriously contemplating replacing the master system with a Cubieboard2, just to get a little more "oomph", especially since there is other stuff that has to run there, like CUPS.

When people ask what I do with Pis, I start by saying that my Pi projects are very dull and ordinary.

It is a delight to watch the things people are doing with Pis, and I agree that taking this very basic system and pushing it to its limeits...and perhaps a ways beyond is a good thing.

AndrewdAzotus
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:07 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:31 am

Lob0426 wrote:Sorry but Utilite and Trimslice are completely out of the picture due to price. For what they want for a Trimslice I can buy a pretty decent desktop PC.

Utilite claims $99 but you have to buy memory and storage for it to work. So I could buy, or dig up, a used PC that is cheaper than that, and better performance. I almost could beat that price for a new box at Wal-Mart! It has been billed as a "Rival" but is really too pricey for rival status. It does have some nice stuff and would fill the bill for some of the Super Pi people.
No you don't. The $99 comes with a single core Cortex-A9m 512MB RAM and 4gb micro SDHC, a power supply and a case. I threw this together: http://www.azotus.co.uk/Pi-Compare.php

Compulab have this page: http://utilite-computer.com/web/utilite-models

hippy
Posts: 6284
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:17 am

Jim Manley wrote:Designing and having built products that are not primarily promotional in nature and that don't further the educational goals of the Foundation (in this case, as stated in their registration documentation) cannot be pursued
I don't think I ever disagreed with that; whether an item furthers the charitable aims or not is the crux of the matter.

The claim I dispute is that the Foundation has to legally limit itself to producing products which are for "purely educational use". I do not believe that is true from my understanding of UK charity laws.

The Foundation have to "further the advancement of education of adults and children" but that does not, as I see it, constrain them to only producing products which are of "purely educational use". It's not so much what they do or how they do it; it's whether it meets the goals.

However, it seems we are simply not going to agree, so perhaps someone from the Foundation could tell us how they interpret things - Are they legally constrained to producing products which only have promotional or "purely educational use" or not ?

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 24188
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:37 am

hippy wrote:
Jim Manley wrote:Designing and having built products that are not primarily promotional in nature and that don't further the educational goals of the Foundation (in this case, as stated in their registration documentation) cannot be pursued
I don't think I ever disagreed with that; whether an item furthers the charitable aims or not is the crux of the matter.

The claim I dispute is that the Foundation has to legally limit itself to producing products which are for "purely educational use". I do not believe that is true from my understanding of UK charity laws.

The Foundation have to "further the advancement of education of adults and children" but that does not, as I see it, constrain them to only producing products which are of "purely educational use". It's not so much what they do or how they do it; it's whether it meets the goals.

However, it seems we are simply not going to agree, so perhaps someone from the Foundation could tell us how they interpret things - Are they legally constrained to producing products which only have promotional or "purely educational use" or not ?
I *think* the Foundation can do what they like - but profit from whatever they do must go back in to the charity to support it's aims.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I think it’s wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly.” – Steven Wright

AndrewdAzotus
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:07 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:02 am

I don't think there's any must about it. I seem to recall scandals where charities and 'misplaced' funds.

If a charities aims are to promote education or find a cure for cancer, they fund raise. Which means looking for donations.

If the givers find that their money is not going towards the aims of the charity then funds will stop being given.

After all, if all the money given to an animal charity was going on coffee and biscuits and not saving animals then would you give them more money?

Now, where's the kettle?

OtherCrashOverride
Posts: 582
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:25 am

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:45 pm

hippy wrote:The Foundation have to "further the advancement of education of adults and children" but that does not, as I see it, constrain them to only producing products which are of "purely educational use". It's not so much what they do or how they do it; it's whether it meets the goals.
http://swag.raspberrypi.org/

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 24188
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:16 pm

AndrewdAzotus wrote:I don't think there's any must about it. I seem to recall scandals where charities and 'misplaced' funds.

If a charities aims are to promote education or find a cure for cancer, they fund raise. Which means looking for donations.

If the givers find that their money is not going towards the aims of the charity then funds will stop being given.

After all, if all the money given to an animal charity was going on coffee and biscuits and not saving animals then would you give them more money?

Now, where's the kettle?
The point is that charities do need to pay employees, and run as business in that sense. BUT all their profits much go back in to the charity, and not be paid out as dividends etc. So share options and other such schemes are not possible.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I think it’s wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly.” – Steven Wright

hippy
Posts: 6284
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:52 pm

This appears to be the UK position, which would apply to the Foundation ...

http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/det ... trade-cc35

That seems to apply few, if any, limits on what can be done; more how it should / must be done for tax and legal purposes. It may well be different for charities and non-profits in other jurisdictions.

User avatar
abishur
Posts: 4477
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:10 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:29 pm

:lol: and all this from a discussion on what you'd like to see in a future model of the pi! If y'all really want to continue discussing the finer points of British charities laws, then perhaps we should split this thread into a new one where it can be discussed? (though I'd also hope that since I haven't heard anyone mentioning that they have a law degree that we'd all abstain from putting too much faith in our own words on the subject ;-) )
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

hippy
Posts: 6284
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:43 pm

abishur wrote:If y'all really want to continue discussing the finer points of British charities laws, then perhaps we should split this thread into a new one where it can be discussed?
I think we're done, but it was a little more than just the intricacies of British Law ( though it stands upon that ); it was addressing whether the Foundation were constrained in what they could do in future which, if they were, could have wide and serious implications.

User avatar
Lob0426
Posts: 2198
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:30 pm
Location: Susanville CA.
Contact: Website

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:57 am

Well there is one disqualifier in you table of RasPi vs. utilite,,, Availablility SOON! :lol: It may not even be available in the U.S. then.

If it does come with the 512MB and the PSU then it does narrow the price gap some. Add too that the 4 USB ports so you do not need a hub, a case and the Gb Ethernet and it could be a very viable product. Still not sure it is a RasPi rival!
512MB version 2.0 as WordPress Server
Motorola Lapdock with Pi2B
Modded Rev 1.0 with pin headers at USB

http://rich1.dyndns.tv/
(RS)Allied ships old stock to reward its Customers for long wait!

AndrewdAzotus
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:07 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:11 am

Lob0426 wrote:Well there is one disqualifier in you table of RasPi vs. utilite,,, Availablility SOON! :lol: It may not even be available in the U.S. then.
it had better be available in North America, else I will have to import one from the UK.
Lob0426 wrote:If it does come with the 512MB and the PSU then it does narrow the price gap some. Add too that the 4 USB ports so you do not need a hub, a case and the Gb Ethernet and it could be a very viable product. Still not sure it is a RasPi rival!
According to the specs and the discussions, the 512MB is SMT on the main board so it can't not come with it. Oh, and you cannot change the (or add a) mSATA drive since the case forms part of the overall system cooling and is cannot be dismantled by the user.

And I don't think it is a rival to the Pi, I see it as complementing the Pi in the same way that the Arduino and cubieboard and the like are complementary products too. I feel they are aimed at different markets.

I also wonder if these machines like these are the embryo technology of the beginning of the end of the large server machines. With mass storage connected directly to the network (NAS & SAN) and managed switches load balancing to many, many fan-less disk-less computers (no, not the Pi - at least until we see what version 3 is :lol: ) running SQL clusters and web server clusters. Samba4 does LDAP and PDC/BDC.

If machines like these have WoL they can be powered up and down as needed automatically.

Sorry, I digress.

I now have three Pi, I plan to buy more. At the moment, I also want a pro version of the Utilite, but ... we'll see. Something else may catch my eye :D

mikerr
Posts: 2789
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:46 pm
Location: UK
Contact: Website

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:41 am

The main feature of the Pi has always been its low price point.

You can get better performance boards with extra features, but every small addition makes the cost creep up until you're paying over double the basic Pi cost.

AndrewdAzotus
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:07 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:27 am

mikerr wrote:The main feature of the Pi has always been its low price point.

You can get better performance boards with extra features, but every small addition makes the cost creep up until you're paying over double the basic Pi cost.
Which is exactly why I put that comparison page together and I will add other boards that are similar in many ways. I've only just come across the Cubieboard, I may add that, but I have added the BBC Micro Model B even though it's comparable to the Pi in only one respect.

One of the reasons I like the Pi so much is because it fills its original design spec so perfectly, that is to cost $35 and to promote education - the latter being the most important in my mind.

I also enjoy using it because to get it to do better and more we have to push the limits of the h/w.

I have another computer here which cost me nothing. A Celeron running at 2.4GHz, 40GB HDD, 768MB RAM running Debian put together using parts from computers that were being thrown away to be recycled. It beats the Pi on all points, power, speed, storage and cost, yet I get far more of a buzz using my Pi than I do running that.

Which is also why I said I'd buy a Utilite unless something else catches my eye, but I'll always have my Pi and hope to add to my collection. I've managed to persuade one person to get one and will continue to promote them to anyone I can get to listen to me.

User avatar
Lob0426
Posts: 2198
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:30 pm
Location: Susanville CA.
Contact: Website

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:41 am

I have been happy with a RasPi as a low powered web site. It also is great to work with them as a mistake while modding them is not that expensive if you really screw up. I have 5 Model B's 2 have been heavily modded.

As the number of low cost affordable boards increases we will have more choices of design to work with. I still think a "server" version would be a good idea. Others seem to want Super Pi's. I think most would settle for a few changes to the current versions!
512MB version 2.0 as WordPress Server
Motorola Lapdock with Pi2B
Modded Rev 1.0 with pin headers at USB

http://rich1.dyndns.tv/
(RS)Allied ships old stock to reward its Customers for long wait!

AndrewdAzotus
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:07 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:26 am

One more thing I would like to see on the next Pi is the SD card slot moved so that the SD card does not stick out so far.

User avatar
RaTTuS
Posts: 10506
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:12 am
Location: North West UK
Contact: Twitter YouTube

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:31 am

AndrewdAzotus wrote:One more thing I would like to see on the next Pi is the SD card slot moved so that the SD card does not stick out so far.
use a microSD card adapter
How To ask Questions :- http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
WARNING - some parts of this post may be erroneous YMMV

1QC43qbL5FySu2Pi51vGqKqxy3UiJgukSX
Covfefe

AndrewdAzotus
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:07 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:11 pm

I thought microSD cards were slower than big ones, and I've bought big ones now :cry:

User avatar
RaTTuS
Posts: 10506
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:12 am
Location: North West UK
Contact: Twitter YouTube

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:47 pm

YMWV - some are, some are not but there are things like
http://www.adafruit.com/products/966
How To ask Questions :- http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
WARNING - some parts of this post may be erroneous YMMV

1QC43qbL5FySu2Pi51vGqKqxy3UiJgukSX
Covfefe

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11107
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:23 pm

AndrewdAzotus wrote:I thought microSD cards were slower than big ones, and I've bought big ones now :cry:
It's pretty common to find micro-SD-with-full-sized-adapter packages. It's very likely that the actual silicon in the micro-SDs is identical to the full sized cards.

On the other hand, if this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/05 ... rram_part/ tech came to SD cards, life could get REALY interesting. (A future version of the Pi would need a faster card interface to take advantage of it, though.)

AndrewdAzotus
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:07 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:59 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:On the other hand, if this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/05 ... rram_part/ tech came to SD cards, life could get REALY interesting. (A future version of the Pi would need a faster card interface to take advantage of it, though.)
forget coming to SD cards, with that, if cheap enough, a future Pi could have a terabyte of storage on board

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11107
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Suggestions for version 3

Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:45 pm

AndrewdAzotus wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:On the other hand, if this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/05 ... rram_part/ tech came to SD cards, life could get REALY interesting. (A future version of the Pi would need a faster card interface to take advantage of it, though.)
forget coming to SD cards, with that, if cheap enough, a future Pi could have a terabyte of storage on board
The attractive aspect of removal mass storage remains...it's an easy way to un-brick a system (assuming the bricking a software issue).

Return to “General discussion”