Oakham
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:05 am

Roll on the Model Z can not wait :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

It will stop all the whiners and whingers :shock:
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Lob0426
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:34 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
That's what I'm using Cubieboards for....servers to support Pis. Weaker GPU, 1GB RAM, powers down on "halt" and has a pushbutton to power it back on (or force it to shut down). The SATA port supports the "server" usage as well. I doubt that Raspbian (which I'm using for MY compatability) fully supports the ARMv7 on it, but it runs okay. I'm seriously thinking of getting a Cubie 2 to be an even better server, since that board is dual core.

I don't see these boards as Pi replacements or successors, but as support servers. On the other hand, if the RPF decided to put out a supplemental SBC with, essentially, the same features, I'd snap it up. Not that I'm holding my breath waiting for that to happen. (RPF has better support from a larger community, as shown by the fact that the "Debian" release for the Cubie's is Raspbian.)
I have been looking at the Cubieboard and the Beagle Bone Black.

Does the Cubieboard support HDD spin down?



It is funny what people think you can build for under a $100. There certainly are people out there that want $200 worth of board for $35. They want a retail box that has XBMC already installed or home automation out of the box. The truth is there are retail products that do those things. My Sony Blu-Ray player can do about anything XBMC can and a lot more for just over $100. And if you are willing to pony up then home automation is out there too, probably $1000+ or so, but it is out there.

If you want to build either of those things yourself then that is what a Raspberry Pi can be used for. It will take some research, some calluses on your fingers and unfortunately the worst of it all is you might have to learn something. Learning is what drove the Raspberry Pi Foundation.

Now it is easy for someone to call out whiners and whingers, but it is harder to realize that our education systems have left a large part of our people ignorant to anything but retail devices. In other words Consumers. Here in the U.S. the majority of schools very rarely touched upon anything more than "keyboarding" or how to use one or another of Microsoft products. This is a generalization of our education system, but a fact, except at some pretty rare schools. (lets see that would be whining)

In my little town of Susanville the Football team is more important than just about anything else, including learning the basics. The band was cut back with funding, not the football team, Girls baseball was cut. There never has been any real technology course here and it would have been cut if there was. Funding is getting hard to spread around. (so is that whining or whinging)

There are exactly 8 Raspberry Pi's that I know for sure that are here. Mine and my brothers broods of RasPii. I have tried to find them and I cannot seem to find any here. I have tried to give a Raspberry Pi away, here, to a kid and he could not look away from his iPhone long enough to really see what he was being offered. (this is probably whinging)

So what we need to really be doing is finding a way to get every kid into a bare device that he or she has to put some mental sweat equity into. We will probably have to block their cell signal, so they will quit texting long enough to give it a try. We will have to cut their Internet to get them off twitter, Facebook etc. And we have to make it interesting. (this is a fact)
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:25 am

Let us dream in this storn of ideas.
Good comments are thinks like: "I would like spdif" and "no, it would cost x pounds or euros more and you have hdmi and audo out with a very good quality" or "i want line in because ip telephony, voice recognition o noise analisys can be very interesting technologies to abord and rpi has sufficient power to use it" and "sorry but this SOC don't have audio in cappabilities so if we take the model with it, it will cost x plus audio connector, you can use a usb audio ...".
Reading the history of raspberry pi, we know it has been a hard work (thanks a lot) that can't be repeated evey mornig once you have take a good breakfas. But, I think, it can help to plan the next steep and, may be, discover what else can be done.
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pluggy
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:35 am

Sheesh, the super dooper Pi is already available.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Raspberry-PI- ... 232af531b7

It must be a Raspberry Pi, it says so....

1 GB Ram, SATA interface, better ARM processor, runs Android and Ubuntu - all you ever wanted.
Don't judge Linux by the Pi.......
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:56 am

pluggy wrote:Sheesh, the super dooper Pi is already available.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Raspberry-PI- ... 232af531b7

It must be a Raspberry Pi, it says so....

1 GB Ram, SATA interface, better ARM processor, runs Android and Ubuntu - all you ever wanted.
Heh... And overpriced as well. (Not *horribly* overpriced, but over priced. You can get that board for $50.)

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:16 am

Lob0426 wrote: I have been looking at the Cubieboard and the Beagle Bone Black.

Does the Cubieboard support HDD spin down?
I have no idea. I've using them exclusively with SSDs. For my application I am far more interested in speed than capacity.
It is funny what people think you can build for under a $100. There certainly are people out there that want $200 worth of board for $35. They want a retail box that has XBMC already installed or home automation out of the box. The truth is there are retail products that do those things. My Sony Blu-Ray player can do about anything XBMC can and a lot more for just over $100. And if you are willing to pony up then home automation is out there too, probably $1000+ or so, but it is out there.

If you want to build either of those things yourself then that is what a Raspberry Pi can be used for. It will take some research, some calluses on your fingers and unfortunately the worst of it all is you might have to learn something. Learning is what drove the Raspberry Pi Foundation.

Now it is easy for someone to call out whiners and whingers, but it is harder to realize that our education systems have left a large part of our people ignorant to anything but retail devices. In other words Consumers. Here in the U.S. the majority of schools very rarely touched upon anything more than "keyboarding" or how to use one or another of Microsoft products. This is a generalization of our education system, but a fact, except at some pretty rare schools. (lets see that would be whining)

In my little town of Susanville the Football team is more important than just about anything else, including learning the basics. The band was cut back with funding, not the football team, Girls baseball was cut. There never has been any real technology course here and it would have been cut if there was. Funding is getting hard to spread around. (so is that whining or whinging)

There are exactly 8 Raspberry Pi's that I know for sure that are here. Mine and my brothers broods of RasPii. I have tried to find them and I cannot seem to find any here. I have tried to give a Raspberry Pi away, here, to a kid and he could not look away from his iPhone long enough to really see what he was being offered. (this is probably whinging)

So what we need to really be doing is finding a way to get every kid into a bare device that he or she has to put some mental sweat equity into. We will probably have to block their cell signal, so they will quit texting long enough to give it a try. We will have to cut their Internet to get them off twitter, Facebook etc. And we have to make it interesting. (this is a fact)
I'm certainly not going to argue against any of that.

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:47 am

At the end of the day to create a better Pi, the Broadcom SoC would have to go, therefore everything would need re-compiling for ARMv7.

Goodbye a whole community of early adoptors to feed some loonies who have no understanding of computers...... :twisted:

IMO ALL POSTS STATING I WANT A BETTER PI SHOULD BE MOVED TO OFF-TOPIC !!
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:01 am

What I'd like is two CPUs, double the memory, a load more GPIO pins, an extra couple of USB ports and two network ports.

Also, it would be great if it could drive two displays at the same time.

Oh, hang on... I've already got that. It's called "Two Pis" (I didn't say they had to be on the same board or share memory or anything) :lol:

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:55 am

Oakham wrote:At the end of the day to create a better Pi, the Broadcom SoC would have to go, therefore everything would need re-compiling for ARMv7.

Goodbye a whole community of early adoptors to feed some loonies who have no understanding of computers...... :twisted:

IMO ALL POSTS STATING I WANT A BETTER PI SHOULD BE MOVED TO OFF-TOPIC !!
If newb (over)enthusiasm within the community bugs you so much then perhaps you could consider starting your own community with your own rules. Or you could just try to accept that individuals within a community will not always share the same opinions.

Sure, any significant upgrade will break backward compatibility and orphan first generation Pi, but that's the risk that early adopters take with any new format. If this was just a standalone educational product the obsolete Arm architecture wouldn't be a big deal, but the Pi is no longer just an educational tool - and hasn't been since before it's release. It went viral, remember? So, if the thought of Pi ending up in the hands of "loonies who have no understanding of computers" disgusts you, then maybe you should lobby the Foundation to do a bit more public outreach on the educational front to augment the whole "punting the product at maker faires" thing.

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:07 am

Letting your imagination go is a great thing.

Having people turning up here every other day effectively saying "The Pi is crap because it lacks features x,y, z or should be faster or built differently or whatever bla bla", is disheartening, negative, not creative and somewhat impolite to the creators of the Pi.

Not to mention off topic. For any one wanting a better Pi than the Pi there are already a ton of other boards to choose from. Just get one and sign up for those guys forum.
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:07 am

How about a new sub-forum, perhaps inside 'Off-Topic", for all the Version 3 / model C suggestion threads, so that people can see what everyone else has suggested.
That way, we should see fewer repeats of "I would like VGA" "Put all the connectors on one edge" "microphone input" HDMI input" "SATA" etc., and just maybe someone will come up with something genuinely new.

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:50 am

I liked what happened with design of the Propeller micro-controller by Parallax Inc.

Years back they came up with a 32 bit micro-controller with 32K RAM and 32 I/O pins. It also had 8 independent CPU cores on board. How radical is that?

Of course people start whining, not fast enough, not enough RAM, what about this, what about that, bla, bla.

A few years later Parallax starts on a design for a new version of the chip taking use of improvements in process technology and design skills they had acquired. Yes, faster, more RAM, more pins and a lot of other features.

Then an amazing thing happened. The guy designing this new chip would pop up on their forums and ask everyone "Hey guys, we can put more CPU's on this thing or we can have RAM, what's best for you?". Or as some feature was being developed it was discussed with the forum members many of whom had used the earlier chip a lot and new it's architecture and limitations well.

There was, and still is, a long running thread devoted to just such development discussion. The new Propeller should be arriving in the next month or so.

My conclusion: A "Pi 2 development" thread is a good idea but it's far too early. Better to discuss these things when a new design is starting up, whenever that may be. Then there can be a sensible debate about what works or doesn't work in the Pi, what people really need and importantly what can be done with the technology available at that time. For sure technology will not stand still.
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:18 pm

Heater wrote:For any one wanting a better Pi than the Pi there are already a ton of other boards to choose from. Just get one and sign up for those guys forum.
I sometimes wonder if the issue of the alternative boards is a matter of awareness or not... That is to say, it sometimes seems that some folks specifically want a new Raspberry Pi because they want the features but only want to pay RPi prices... :P
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Lob0426
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:18 pm

@Oakham;
I think you should know that a guy named Eben Upton (@eben) started the original "feature wanted" post.

So it is not too far out there to discuss adding features to the Raspberry Pi. I do think that there is at least an idea on the Foundations part to create another version. It may come to pass that they just do not have too. There are at least double the number of boards available now as there were when the Foundation built theirs. And the prices on the newer "development" boards are not as rediculous as they were before.

As to the ARM V7 causing a loss of backwards compatibility;
There is just no reason for the older instructions to be supported in a newer board. All of the newer boards are V7. Any newer SoC will also be V7. So there is going to be a fork in the future. There are no pin compatible alternative SoC's either so there will be a whole new PCB also.

Either way, a new foundation board, or a board by another group, means no backward compatibility or limited compatibility. Considering the size and type of OS, this not the insurmountable problem it would be with a windows based machine. I.e. you would have to buy a whole new operating system.

If you have a web server that you want to move to a newer board version? You get to have the install experience all over again. Big deal, we can all use the practice! :lol: I have installed my web server on a single RasPi, as a split web/DB on two RasPii. I installed it on a Panda board ES to test its performance (V7 instructions, install was similar). All it took was a few hours for each (6 hours for the split server to gain a lousy .2 seconds better performance :( ).

If you do not want to spend the time on the newer board then keep your older boards and work with them. The community is not going abandon the RasPi overnight for Version C. It will be many years before our current RasPii see their last code!

Technology moves on and it always causes us to adjust our ways. We always seem to get used to it, again! :D
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:57 pm

Lob0426,
...new foundation board, or a board by another group, means no backward compatibility or limited compatibility.
This is not so. I don't see a move to ARM V7 as being a big deal. Compatibility will be very good.

When you get there you will have the same Debian as you are used to.
Unlike in the Windows world we don't have to move binary code over. Debian all ready exists for it and all packages work just the same.
For any code you need to compile just copy the source over and it will compile the same.
For any code written in Python, PHP, JavaScript etc just copy it over and it will work.

I have Debian 7 on ARM boards with ARM V7 and it hardly possible to tell which is which when I move my projects around.

The things that will catch you out are peripheral, like the arrangement of GPIO and such. That should not be so hard to accommodate.

Then there may be graphics issues for those hacking closely to the GPU. I don't think that worries most of us.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Lob0426
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:59 pm

I agree with you @Heater but others seem to be very worried about backwards compatibility. There are some differences, but as you said python and such just copy over. I have not tried compiling Linux as yet. Considering how little Linux experience I have that means it is not that hard to switch! :lol:

Ubuntu and Raspbian installs of WordPress were very similar, except Ubuntu server has an option to install LAMP. I used the instructions for a LAMP install for the RasPi to setup WordPress on the Panda Board. No real major difference.

Most likely is a single core ARM V7 core with the VC-IV, it would be a good version. I do not think Broadcom has a SoC like that.
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:22 pm

As director of engineering for Raspberry Pi, I definitely wouldn't want the discussion to go elsewhere! We are always interested in things that could be added to the Pi, but the point is we're very cost limited.

It would be better for us to keep a list of items and for people to vote for their favorites... Then we can weigh up the costs with this to decide what we could add in the future. But we'll never compromise the primary aims of the Raspberry Pi in this choice...

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:43 pm

gsh wrote:It would be better for us to keep a list of items and for people to vote for their favorites...
Keeping a list would prevent a new "What I want for the next Pi" thread every week. The worst possible thing would be to vote on it. You will end up with a product designed for people who complain the loudest and an escalation of conflict on the forums as people advocate their personal interests. Its preferable that research be done that includes a larger sampling pool than "people with enough free time to complain on the internet" to prioritize features that add the most value to the product.

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:49 pm

Just so you understand, it isn't a democracy...

Just because everyone clicks faster processor doesn't mean you get it... As I said it'd be taken into consideration and weighed against all the other factors

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:58 pm

Heater wrote:Lob0426,
...new foundation board, or a board by another group, means no backward compatibility or limited compatibility.
This is not so. I don't see a move to ARM V7 as being a big deal. Compatibility will be very good.

When you get there you will have the same Debian as you are used to.
Unlike in the Windows world we don't have to move binary code over. Debian all ready exists for it and all packages work just the same.
For any code you need to compile just copy the source over and it will compile the same.
For any code written in Python, PHP, JavaScript etc just copy it over and it will work.

I have Debian 7 on ARM boards with ARM V7 and it hardly possible to tell which is which when I move my projects around.

The things that will catch you out are peripheral, like the arrangement of GPIO and such. That should not be so hard to accommodate.

Then there may be graphics issues for those hacking closely to the GPU. I don't think that worries most of us.
I agree about the code compatibility. I'm running Raspbian on Cubieboards. I'm probably not getting optimal performace (my sysadmin foo hasn't gotten to looking to find an ARMv7 source and I'm not willing--at the moment--to start recompiling my own system), but it runs. Now it's true that I'm not pushing the envelope on anything. I'm primarily running MySQL (which just takes some apt-get commands) and I recompiled my C programs, but so far everything works "out of the box".

From that experience, I could see a future Pi using ARMv7 (or higher) starting with Raspbian and then getting recompiled-for-the-new-SoC version. Fixing defects in the software would simply lead to recompiling for both platforms. The biggest key would probably be to use another Broadcom chip with the same GPU, but in a later development of it.

Eventually (and who knows when it will be), Broadcom will probably decide to drop the BCM2835. Mostly likely when nobody but the RPF wants them, forcing the RPF to move on. Of cource, as--and if--Pis continue to sell in ever increasing numbers (at some point the schools are likely to ordering a *lot* of Pis), the production of Pis might be sufficient to keep the BCM2835 alive longer than would be the case without the Pi. 1-2 million units per year is pretty small potatoes in the mobile SoC space, but it's still nothing to sneeze at once the development cost has been amortized off.

To the extent that the RPF will--eventually--want to look at a new design, discussing what that design should entail is worthwhile. Just so long as nobody expects it to happen particularly soon.

I can see--and have seen--these sorts of dicussions go in about three divergent directions. The first is small tweaks to the existing design to "tune it up" a bit. Things like better voltage regulators or other minor improvements. The second is a complete revision wish list with things like higher clock speeds, more memory, multicore SoC. The third is towards what amounts to an SBC/SoC desktop replacement--one that has everything but the kitchen sink bolted on.

The direction I would foresee is a possible split into a two board solution. One would be an "enhanced" PI that looks much like the current version, shares the extremely low prices and is good for the same sorts of projects for which Pis are now used. This version would depend on the general drop in prices of components as they become "obsolete" for other uses. For this use, I would anticipate a 1GHz clock, initially 512MB RAM (with the *ability* to be expanded to 1GB later), and modestly improved I/O (such as an on-chip separation of USB and Ethernet). The other would be a "server" version that would be more expensive ($50 to $70 range) that would be specifically designed to act as a file/database/web/etc. server for a whole bunch of Pis. Such a device would probably have 2 to 4 cores, a 1 GHz to 1.5 GHz clock, 1GB to 2GB RAM, drop the composite video, drop the audio line out, add at least 1 SATA connector. Video core for this version is of much lesser importance as would exposed GPOI pins. An RTC would be a good addition to the server, together with default software to also act as an NTP server for the Pis around it.

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:08 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:The other would be a "server" version that would be more expensive ($50 to $70 range) that would be specifically designed to act as a file/database/web/etc. server for a whole bunch of Pis.
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:23 pm

gsh wrote:As director of engineering for Raspberry Pi, I definitely wouldn't want the discussion to go elsewhere! We are always interested in things that could be added to the Pi, but the point is we're very cost limited.

It would be better for us to keep a list of items and for people to vote for their favorites... Then we can weigh up the costs with this to decide what we could add in the future. But we'll never compromise the primary aims of the Raspberry Pi in this choice...

Gordon
Has anyone thought of a poll to see what the most wanted features really are. A realistic feature request poll!

I do not think we will se 2GB ram on that list. Or 2GHz. Or USB 3.0 ! The big budget items are probably the SoC and the PCB.
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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:30 pm

Lob0426 wrote: I do not think we will se 2GB ram on that list. Or 2GHz. Or USB 3.0 ! The big budget items are probably the SoC and the PCB.
From the cost standpoint, I'm less than certain about the memory issue. The upcoming CubieTruck (CT) is slated to have a 2GB option (and, of all things, VGA out) and they're still targeting under $100. It looks to be an "everything but the kitchen sink" board.

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:44 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
From the cost standpoint, I'm less than certain about the memory issue. The upcoming CubieTruck (CT) is slated to have a 2GB option (and, of all things, VGA out) and they're still targeting under $100. It looks to be an "everything but the kitchen sink" board.
Yes, from the cost standpoint perhaps, but not from a practical standpoint! The type of PoP RAM the PI uses (package on package, with a specific ball grid array pinout and electrical interface) simply do not exist with higher capacity than 512MB, and as makers of such RAM's have since gone on making PoP packages only for more modern SoC's they will never go back to make one for such an old SoC, unless miracles happen. But even a tenfold increase in yearly sales of the PI "miracle" won't make it happen.

This SoC will stay (we have established that already), and therefore the maximum memory size will stay too.

Therefore any pledge for more memory is moot. Perhaps we will see a model a with 512MB, but that is it.

For any "revision 3" board, I expect a few rules will apply:
  • It will use the same SoC, therefore the same memory.
  • It will cost the same, or very close to the same, actually I think it will cost exactly the same....
  • It will therefore also have roughly the same dimensions, (a larger PCB costs more money) actually as it probably will need to fit in existing enclosures I think it will have the exact same dimensions.
  • Any improvement will primary be "better" for the intended purpose, of education.
within these restrictions there might still be some improvements possible.

perhaps we could think about those instead of "PI in the sky". :lol:

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Re: Suggestions for version 3

Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:39 am

@mahjongg;
I think there would be no point in making a Rev.3 within your rules, it would be an outlay of cash for no real benefit. You are speaking in terms of the same revisions that brought us Rev. 2.0. I do not think that would even be worth the Foundations effort. There is no need for a board revision purely from a hardware standpoint.

Points;
1. The BCM2835 is going to go out of production (end of life) at some future date, probably extended by the Raspberry Pi somewhat. A different SoC package is inevitable.
2. The memory would probably already be "end of life" if not for the Raspberry Pi and the Roku2. More memory would be nice but 512MB works just fine. Some people never seem to have enough memory.
3. The PCB dimensions will be very similar to the current board due to cost.
4. The SD card is here to stay for a future design. It is just to versatile to leave behind.
5. It will be an educational design, though the majority of current RasPii are not being used for educational use!
6. The current RasPi design will still be sold alongside the newer product, at least for a time.

Richard
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Modded Rev 1.0 with pin headers at USB

http://rich1.dyndns.tv/
(RS)Allied ships old stock to reward its Customers for long wait!

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