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Lob0426
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Re: Why so primitive?

Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:36 am

Dutch_Master wrote:Fortunately they aren't that smart in Redmond ;) Last thing we need is another monopoly of that magnitude on the education of youngsters, teaching them to stifle industries by brainwashing pure undiluted capitalism into their young minds over innovation, freedom and open (read as: honest!) entrepreneurship... :roll:
You notice I said if Microsoft were smart. I did not say it was a good idea from my perspective. :lol:
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LemmeFatale
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Re: Why so primitive?

Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:25 am

Heater wrote:LemmeFatale,
Didn't the rise of Microsoft Windows and its alleged familiarity (and decisions that it should dominate* ), in schools, directly lead to the rise of the problems that the Raspberry Pi was created to address, though?
I have to answer. Very positively. Yes.

From the very beginning of MS the idea was: "We program, you do not. You pay us to do that hassle for you" See Bill Gates' letter to hobbyists from 1976: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Letter_to_Hobbyists

Given the mission of the Raspberry Pi foundation is to foster programming skills in the future generations then MS or any closed source system has no place in the scheme of things. Shame about the Raspi's GPU but it's a good start.
Hey, thanks very much for that! Very interesting stuff!
Lob0426 wrote:@hippy
If Microsoft was smart, they would take a page out of the early Apple playbook. Make a version for the RasPi. Get kids interested in their "new" mobile OS. Make programming and multi-media software for it. Then port that same software, that the kids already know onto other ARM devices.

The software for schools they would charge next to nothing. The other devices would get them their profit.

It worked for "Macintosh"!
That's been the situation with regards to Microsoft software in British schools for over a decade... And then the Raspberry Pi was created to address the problems it's caused. :P

I once heard some folks saying that at one time, Microsoft representatives were touring with school inspectors and schools using non-Microsoft computers were chastised for it, but I have no idea how true that really is.
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Lob0426
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Re: Why so primitive?

Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:10 pm

The real problem is greed. They (Microsoft, Apple, etc) want you to only buy their product, with only their or licensed partners software. Windows 8 for ARM requires the device to be "locked" to only use Win 8. They do not open the code so that more people could bring innovations to their software. That would lose them money. Kind of funny that Microsoft is loosing money because their products do not work well on mobile devices. Guess they should have put more effort into CE or its followers.

Microsoft sued because people were buying the Xbox and then turning them into Linux computers. They tried to get the courts to uphold their view that, you buy our console and you can only run our software. The courts did not see it that way. Their EULA stated that you could only use the Xbox to play Xbox licensed content. The court said you bought a piece of equipment and once you get it home you can do what you like with that equipment.

Next they sued a person because his hack included "some" of their code. I do not remember what became of that case.

Apple is trying to sue Samsung out of the smartphone market. And Samsung is trying to sue Apple out of the market. If they would just apply themselves to building better products then we would all benefit.

As too whether Microsoft employees made tours of schools. I do not doubt it.

Microsoft has probably not figured out that their near monopoly on software, and their steps to keep it that way, have had an impact on the employees that are available for them to make new products.

If they could, they would have bought Linux out of the market. There are probably more servers running on Linux than ever have run on Microsoft software.

Unfortunately the reason Linux has not and may never go mainstream is because it does not have the "polished" user interface that MacOS or Windows has. Yes Unity is pretty good. But it does not have the appeal of the Windows desktop experience. Everything you open has a different look and feel, unlike Windows. That is because they are components built by different people. Every "window" in Windows has that look and feel that you set for the whole of windows. You do not ever have to resort to a terminal window to accomplish a task. Lets face it, we're lazy and windows is the lazy way to get things done!

I have tried to give a Raspberry Pi away to a couple of different kids. A RasPi plus SD card with Raspian installed and updated and a PSU. Both times these kids turned them down. They prefer "using" their iPhones to having to work on the Raspberry Pi. Both had heard about the Raspberry Pi before I made my offer. One was a local and the other from the San Francisco bay area.

The real trick is to get kids to want to learn!
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Re: Why so primitive?

Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:50 pm

Lob0426,
Unfortunately the reason Linux has not and may never go mainstream is...
Except, Linux is already about as main stream as you can get. Did no one notice?

In the same way that users are too lazy to use the command line interface they are also too lazy to use the "traditional" Windows interface. And they don't want to be tied to that big old PC box back home that runs it. And they don't even need that Windows interface anymore, no one wants a WYSIWYG word processor or spread sheet, why would they, they don't need or want to print that anymore.

No, today they spend their lives in their web browsers communing with Twitter, FaceBook, Google etc etc etc.

Hence the current push to get apps up the "cloud" with HTML5, CSS, webgl, JavaScript etc in the browser.

And guess what? Most of those cloud apps and services they are using are running on Linux back at the server farm

And guess what else? Guys who see all this have been busy making WebOS (HP), Chrome OS (Google), FireFox OS (Mozzila).

Windows, by MS or Apple or Linux is done for, we have the browser instead.

Edit: P.S. and as for all that "consistent look and feel" nonsense. It turns out no body cares today, if they ever did. They are happy to use web sites now. Take a look how consistent the look and feel is between Twitter, FaceBook, Google, Linkedin etc etc.

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Re: Why so primitive?

Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:30 pm

Lob0426 wrote:Apple is trying to sue Samsung out of the smartphone market. And Samsung is trying to sue Apple out of the market.
The first, I agree. The second: Samsung is suing Apple to prevent it being US-court-ordered from the (very lucrative!) US market. Main problem in this field is the existence of bogus and fraudulent patents, a system that maintains and upholds these practices and politicians that just do not want to agree to anybody outside their "religion"... :evil: Fortunately, software patents do not exist (YET!) in Europe. But if corporate America get their way, as they has had in the past, that'll change rather sooner then later... :roll:

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Re: Why so primitive?

Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:51 pm

LOL
Linux does underlie many devices nowadays. Blu-ray players, car stereos, cell phones web TV's. Where it has not made a large showing is in the work place. The workplace is dominated by Windows machines. In gaming PC's Windows also dominates. The corporate arena also has been dominated by Windows.

The mobile devices, and embedded devices, are where Linux has made it's best "mainstream" showing to date.

But if you go down to Wal-Mart to buy a PC you will not see a single system that offers Linux (Caveat; some netbooks did have Linux as their OS), even as a possible alternative. That is also true for Best Buy and for Fry's. You do not see Dell or HP or any major computer manufacturer offering Linux on their business or home machines. It is offered on their Servers. If you see an Alienware PC with Linux it was put there, usually as a dual boot option, by its owner.

One reason you do not see it offered as an alternative is because no one asks that it be offered. The other is that if you know about Linux then you probably installed it yourself. Linux does not have anyone that has the money to advertise it. There is no large profit margin in it to make the money. You do not see Ubuntu commercials on TV. You do see Microsoft and Apple/Mac commercials. You see android commercials on TV. The average person does not know that Linux is under that "hood".

If you want Linux to go real mainstream it has to start putting itself out there. If every time your Blu-ray player fired up it said "Powered By Linux", or your Satellite TV showed the cute little penguin, then Linux might really start making some real headway at your work place.

If it could give some real competition to Windows then it would start being offered. Competition is not performance based in this, it is some competition in the advertising department.
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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:01 am

Dutch_Master wrote:
Lob0426 wrote:Apple is trying to sue Samsung out of the smartphone market. And Samsung is trying to sue Apple out of the market.
The first, I agree. The second: Samsung is suing Apple to prevent it being US-court-ordered from the (very lucrative!) US market. Main problem in this field is the existence of bogus and fraudulent patents, a system that maintains and upholds these practices and politicians that just do not want to agree to anybody outside their "religion"... :evil: Fortunately, software patents do not exist (YET!) in Europe. But if corporate America get their way, as they has had in the past, that'll change rather sooner then later... :roll:
I am looking at the suits world wide. They are both suing for market share. I am sure there is also some of this as retaliation for the others suits against them. You also have to understand that this gets their names in the news as free advertising to boot.

Come on? suing because you unlock your phone by swiping sideways across the touch screen? So to solve it you swipe from bottom to top?. I have seen the kings of frivolous lawsuits, inmates, come up with better reasons than that to get chunky peanut butter, Or an 8th pair of glasses!

In all they just need to stop the frivolous suits and get down to making a better product than their competitor.
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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:17 am

In the interest of full disclosure, I have been awarded and successfully defended against attempts to show invalid to the result of licensing, patented software intellectual property. It's not the foofy business model kind of IP like Amazon's One-Click, it's based on real technically-unique achievements that improve on the state of the art of network technology.

People confuse whether software should be patentable (in the U.S.) because they think that only physical entities can be patented, but the Founding Fathers were very careful to define as patentable " ... any new and useful process, machine, article of manufacture, or compositions of matters, or any new useful improvement thereof." The mention of "process" is key and was very explicitly included by men such as Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams, who were all men of commerce and inventors in their own right. They knew the importance of protecting processes and the fact that software is unarguably a collection of processes is how patent protection was readily extended to software.

Another point of confusion is EU laws supposedly not allowing software to be patented in any way, and this is completely false. You can't patent what would typically be called an algorithm, particularly anything mathematical in nature or otherwise abstract. However, it is perfectly valid in the EU to patent software which improves upon the performance of physical devices, such as making a computing device run faster, use less memory, etc. There has to be a concrete application of the technology, and there are some Swiss cheese holes in the law that has made many lawyers very rich because of the difficulty of proving exactly where the dividing line is between purely abstract concepts and purely concrete applications.

Besides, if these lawyers weren't busy suing each other (and let's be honest, it's all about who's "sword" is more substantial) in those companies, they'd be coming after us directly and individually. I'm more than happy with the status quo and can't imagine anyone else with a rational mind thinking otherwise (although I've been staggeringly surprised here before).

As for Linux marketing, I imagine someone has long ago produced a bunch of "Linux Inside" stickers or nameplates but they got lost under a pile of pizza boxes. People give too little credit to Linux user interface consistency and too much credit to Windows user interface consistency. I mean, the Shutdown menu selection in Windows is several mouse moves and clicks inside the Start menu on Windows, for starters? :roll:
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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:30 am

JIm,
...the Founding Fathers were very careful to define as patentable " ... any new and useful process, machine, article of manufacture, or compositions of matters, or any new useful improvement thereof." The mention of "process" is key...
I have to disagree with your interpretation of "process" in the statement by the Founding Fathers.

You see how they talk about "machine", "article", "matters". All physical things. After all they had no idea about software as there was no such thing at the time. Clearly "process" in this context is a physical process and has no relation to software as we know it today.
You can't patent what would typically be called an algorithm, particularly anything mathematical in nature or otherwise abstract. [in the EU]
Thank God for that.
...it is perfectly valid in the EU to patent software which improves upon the performance of physical devices, such as making a computing device run faster, use less memory, etc....
Please explain to me, or give an example, of software that improves computers speed or optimizes it's memory or whatever that is not an algorithm and hence mathematical and abstract? Software that optimizes caching or garbage collection etc etc is all algorithm and abstract. Or then there is the classic example of the Fast Fourier Transform which boosted Fourier transform calculation enormously, basically maths.

I'm going to argue that patents have always been detrimental to progress. Check the history of the steam engine or telephone to see why.

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LemmeFatale
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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:51 am

Lob0426 wrote:Every "window" in Windows has that look and feel that you set for the whole of windows. You do not ever have to resort to a terminal window to accomplish a task. Lets face it, we're lazy and windows is the lazy way to get things done!
I must admit that my experience is the exact opposite. I've always found far more consistency in Linux desktop environments (my favourite is Xfce at this time) than I ever did in Microsoft Windows... And in my now-six-years of using Linux exclusively (I was a Mac user for several years prior, having been looking for something that worked well for me, which Microsoft Windows never did), the only times I use a terminal window are when I want to - it's all about using the right tool for the task!

Microsoft Windows has never been compatible with how I work, though. I've never been able to class it as lazy, to be honest, because I always found it to be extremely difficult-to-use and irritatingly obfuscated (just one example of this is in its unhelpful error messages that seem to be designed to intimidate some users), from the very first time I used it. :P
The real trick is to get kids to want to learn!
Absolutely is, but then, I guess some people just don't want to - and that's always been the case. :P
Heater wrote:Except, Linux is already about as main stream as you can get. Did no one notice?
I noticed!
Edit: P.S. and as for all that "consistent look and feel" nonsense. It turns out no body cares today, if they ever did. They are happy to use web sites now. Take a look how consistent the look and feel is between Twitter, FaceBook, Google, Linkedin etc etc.
I don't believe anyone ever did care, myself, or else we'd see complaints about it with websites, too. :P It's something that seems to get mentioned a little bit nowadays, but never once in my ~25 years of using computers have I ever seen any person complain about inconsistency, or ask for consistency, in the interface. Ever.
Lob0426 wrote:If it could give some real competition to Windows then it would start being offered. Competition is not performance based in this, it is some competition in the advertising department.
Actually, Dell started offering Ubuntu on their home boxes until, I gather, pressure arose. It's not about product quality in this particular case - it's entirely about the sizes of companies' wallets, unfortunately. The same issue befell netbooks - pressure and threats of losing their discounts on Microsoft Windows met those manufacturers, and lots of shills were sent out in force, too... It's not being offered because someone wants it not to be.
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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:14 am

Microsoft Windows has never been compatible with how I work, though. I've never been able to class it as lazy, to be honest, because I always found it to be extremely difficult-to-use and irritatingly obfuscated (just one example of this is in its unhelpful error messages that seem to be designed to intimidate some users), from the very first time I used it.
This is, of course, a funny paragraph. I'm actually quite curious. Could you explain how/why it isn't "compatible" with how you work and what you don't like about the error messages? Thanks!
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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:20 am

Lob0426 wrote:Lets face it, we're lazy and windows is the lazy way to get things done!
Absolutely, and lazy people want to be told how to do something, not be invited or encouraged to learn about how to do that.

Most of us are lazy and the overwhelming majority of manufacturing is targeted at the lazy; providing products for people to use without needing the knowledge to do it themselves.

The Pi is however intended to help people learn 'how to' rather than being a consumer product which is simply used. It is not designed as a product for the lazy, so it does not fit the demands of the lazy.

There's nothing wrong with that but it does mean the lazy are effectively denied access to the Pi unless prepared to change their ways. Or someone provides a way for lazy people to use the Pi.

It's certainly not the job of the Foundation to cater for the lazy, but the opportunity is there for someone to do so, and that still benefits the Foundations through sales to facilitate the goals they do have.

Linux has huge penetration but mainly because of the few who choose that and roll it out hidden within ubiquitous products. It has not been chosen by the lazy who make up the overwhelming population out there; given a choice they mostly stick with the lazy option of Windows on laptop and desktop, IOS or Android on mobile devices.

Ubuntu made some inroads in penetrating the lazy market space but ultimately only made a dent against Windows. People seem to want lazy and that's perhaps the end of it; Linux, Pi, is not for them. It won't however stop people asking for a lazy option to take advantage of low cost hardware, be that "Windows on Pi?" or something else.

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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:39 am

To me, the funny thing about all of this is that if you imagine computing devices to be arrayed in a progression like this:

Linux/DIY: Most techie - and this is where the Pi is.
...
Windows/Mac: Still computing, but most of the details taken care of for you.
...
Appliances: smartphones, iPad, etc (least techie - just turn it on, it works - no shell access of any kind)

It's funny that Linux appears at both ends.

Or, another way of looking at it is that the Pi, viewed from a large enough distance, has a lot of the look-and-feel of an appliance - but when you get up close, it is a bit of a shock to find out that it is, indeed in the first category above, not the third. And, in fact, in the OP's words, it is "primitive".

I actually got my first taste of this when I ordered and received my first SBC (another one, not the Pi - and this was primarily because this was in the period before the Pi became generally available). This board comes with Android in NAND - so you can boot it directly out of the box without an SD card (if you want to run Android, that is...). I of course quickly tired of Android and switched to booting Linux from an SD card, but the point is that everything did work (Well, not really, but that's more due to Android being such a POS than anything to do with this board) under Android and you could (modulo the bugs) feel like you were using an "appliance", rather than a "computer".

Furthermore, the chatter on the support board for the board contained a lot of expressions like "Oh, we can't really tell you how to do that - you just have to figure it out for yourself. Just play around with it as if it were a smartphone - just trying hitting buttons, you'll figure it out. It's intuitive."

Which of course, is reasonable advice for something in category 3, but for category 1 (or even 2!), not so much...
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:44 am

It's funny that Linux appears at both ends.
In fact, what I meant to say here was that:


It's funny that Linux appears at both ends - but not in the middle. At all...
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:37 pm

Which comes as no surprise, as it was labelled "Win-OS/Mac" :roll: :mrgreen:

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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:41 pm

Dutch_Master wrote:Which comes as no surprise, as it was labelled "Win-OS/Mac" :roll: :mrgreen:
What was?
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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:50 pm

This list:
Joe Schmoe wrote: Linux/DIY: Most techie - and this is where the Pi is.
...
Windows/Mac: Still computing, but most of the details taken care of for you.
...
Appliances: smartphones, iPad, etc (least techie - just turn it on, it works - no shell access of any kind)
No mention of Linux in the middle.

That is, to all intends and purposes, incorrect. Ubuntu and other modern distro's do exactly what M$ and Apple are doing: working out of the box. Heck, Ubuntu even had the audacity to copy the Win-OS motto: "we'll make your choices" :roll: (so, no more Ubuntu for me then :P)

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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:11 pm

coolblue2000 wrote:Well for one thing, Even if you could replace the arm chip with an intel one (which would defeat the whole point of the raspberry pi) you could still not run mac os on it as Apple have made it illegal to run macos on anything other than an apple machine.
Sorry to be a Pedantic Pete here, but it's not quite as clear cut as that. It's against Apple's EULA to install it on non-Apple hardware, which in and of itself does not make it "illegal" to do so. Only one company so far, Psystar, have been found to be breaking any laws; Apple sued them into oblivion for selling non-Apple x86 PCs with OS X pre-installed.

Current methods of booting/installing OS X on a "regular" PC involve emulation of an EFI environment, allowing OS X to see the PC as a "real" Mac (provided you have the right hardware & CPU). They don't involve modification of any closed-source Apple code, they use modified versions of the Darwin boot loader, which is completely open source.

It hasn't been tested in court as yet, but it doesn't appear that any laws are being broken and I haven't heard of any other person/company being sued by Apple for violation of the DMCA. The hackintosh community doesn't exactly go to great lengths to hide itself, its methods or its software; of course the unwritten rule is that one should not do this for profit, and indeed the licenses used by some of the bootloaders specifically prohibit "for profit" usage.

None of that is going to get OS X running on a Pi, however! :lol:

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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:21 pm

No mention of Linux in the middle.

That is, to all intends and purposes, incorrect. Ubuntu and other modern distro's do exactly what M$ and Apple are doing: working out of the box. Heck, Ubuntu even had the audacity to copy the Win-OS motto: "we'll make your choices" (so, no more Ubuntu for me then )
Well, that's obviously the point on which we disagree, since I clearly don't think Linux can or ever will inhabit the middle ground.

It simply doesn't work as well as Windows or Mac - you can argue this point all you want, but you know I'm right.

But we are allowed to disagree.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:32 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote:
No mention of Linux in the middle.

That is, to all intends and purposes, incorrect. Ubuntu and other modern distro's do exactly what M$ and Apple are doing: working out of the box. Heck, Ubuntu even had the audacity to copy the Win-OS motto: "we'll make your choices" (so, no more Ubuntu for me then )
Well, that's obviously the point on which we disagree, since I clearly don't think Linux can or ever will inhabit the middle ground.

It simply doesn't work as well as Windows or Mac - you can argue this point all you want, but you know I'm right.

But we are allowed to disagree.
On the other hand, for the vast majority of users, Linux could work as well as windows. My father uses Ubuntu (and I rarely get support calls), and gets on fine as it does exactly what he needs - mail, web, Libreoffice. And now that I have Minecraft working on Ubuntu, it does all that my son's want....sadly.
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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:13 pm

On the other hand, for the vast majority of users, Linux could work as well as windows. My father uses Ubuntu (and I rarely get support calls), and gets on fine as it does exactly what he needs - mail, web, Libreoffice.
Heh heh - maybe British fathers (and men of that age in general) are smarter than American ones. I can tell you that the chances of any of my neighbors (people probably in the same age range as your father) being able to use Linux is as close to zero as one could imagine.

But we are focusing on the apps side of it. The other side, the drivers/hardware side, is the real bugaboo. If I buy a cheap printer at Walmart, the chances of it working with Linux (OOB) or having Linux drivers available anywhere is exactly zero. Even more to the point, if I buy a PC at Walmart, the chances of it working (i.e., all the cheap screwy hardware that they load these things up with) with Linux is, again, pretty close to zero. The value of having the OS pre-loaded and guaranteed to work cannot be underestimated.

And, for scanners/OCR, ditto the above comments about printers squared and to the Nth power.
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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:17 pm

P.S. I also meant to add, in the context of printers and printing, that the only way I can print to my networked printer from my Mac is via a Windows VM. The printer situation on MacOSX is not much better than it is on Unixes in general.

And note that this isn't just me. I've read other comments online confirming this state-of-affairs.
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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:54 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote:
On the other hand, for the vast majority of users, Linux could work as well as windows. My father uses Ubuntu (and I rarely get support calls), and gets on fine as it does exactly what he needs - mail, web, Libreoffice.
Heh heh - maybe British fathers (and men of that age in general) are smarter than American ones. I can tell you that the chances of any of my neighbors (people probably in the same age range as your father) being able to use Linux is as close to zero as one could imagine.

But we are focusing on the apps side of it. The other side, the drivers/hardware side, is the real bugaboo. If I buy a cheap printer at Walmart, the chances of it working with Linux (OOB) or having Linux drivers available anywhere is exactly zero. Even more to the point, if I buy a PC at Walmart, the chances of it working (i.e., all the cheap screwy hardware that they load these things up with) with Linux is, again, pretty close to zero. The value of having the OS pre-loaded and guaranteed to work cannot be underestimated.

And, for scanners/OCR, ditto the above comments about printers squared and to the Nth power.
Dunno about the intelligence of USA parents, but how much more difficult is something like Unity (Although he uses Gnome as its closer to the version of windows he used to use) over Windows? Well, its no more difficult to use as an end users, it's just different. And teaching someone those differences doesnt take very long. Its only a few mouse clicks.
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SirLagz
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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:49 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote:
On the other hand, for the vast majority of users, Linux could work as well as windows. My father uses Ubuntu (and I rarely get support calls), and gets on fine as it does exactly what he needs - mail, web, Libreoffice.
Heh heh - maybe British fathers (and men of that age in general) are smarter than American ones. I can tell you that the chances of any of my neighbors (people probably in the same age range as your father) being able to use Linux is as close to zero as one could imagine.

But we are focusing on the apps side of it. The other side, the drivers/hardware side, is the real bugaboo. If I buy a cheap printer at Walmart, the chances of it working with Linux (OOB) or having Linux drivers available anywhere is exactly zero. Even more to the point, if I buy a PC at Walmart, the chances of it working (i.e., all the cheap screwy hardware that they load these things up with) with Linux is, again, pretty close to zero. The value of having the OS pre-loaded and guaranteed to work cannot be underestimated.

And, for scanners/OCR, ditto the above comments about printers squared and to the Nth power.
My experience has been the opposite actually...granted I've built my PCs but still.
I bought a dell printer, came with linux drivers
Bought a lexmark printer, came with linux drivers
Bought a laptop, chucked ubuntu on, no issues with drivers.
bought an old old laptop, chucked ubuntu on, no issues with drivers

However, using the preloaded windows on that laptop that I bought had plenty of issues lol...like the fact that it had a whopping 2 gigs of ram and was trying to run vista.

I've seriously had less issues running Linux than I have running Windows.
Even with cheap screwy hardware, Linux handled it better than windows did.

For example, my cheap screwy webcam was plug and play in Linux while I had to hunt around for drivers in windows
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Joe Schmoe
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Re: Why so primitive?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:05 pm

Wow. I'm impressed. I feel like I've just met someone from Mars. Someone with life experiences completely different from my own.

Given what you've told me, you might as well be telling me that the sky is green in your world.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

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