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Lob0426
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Re: Why so primitive?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:52 pm

For that $199 you can buy a Panda board with WiFi and Bluetooth, but you cannot run windows on it.

I bought an Atom 330 board ITX for $85 three years ago. Now it costs $199. Of course it did not have integrated 1GB RAM or 4GB NAND. But do those cost the extra $114?
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duberry
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Re: Why so primitive?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:45 pm

beekeyper wrote:Have a look at this; old but still relevant:

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
i have not seen this in a while ! but ( now i actually have `used` Linux a bit )
if you look from far away you can see some similarity ,imho

they both have some kind of command interpreter /bin/sh \?\cmd.exe

both can haz alternative desktop environment's , menus ect
eg
replacing Winlogon "Shell"="Explorer.exe" key in xp with bblean ect

bigger differences are (afaik from user perspective not in any particular order! )

-package management
-portability ( higher chance of finding linux in your tv than mac or ms )
-license!!!

and the latter i find primitive in some cases prohibitive if i give a its incredibly hot in hear to day#
lend me your arms, fast as thunderbolts, for a pillow on my journey.
If the environment was a bank, would it be too big to fail
so long; and thanks for all the pi

Heater
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Re: Why so primitive?

Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:27 am

dubry,

I cannot make out from what you said which license you found primitive and or prohibitive.

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pluggy
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Re: Why so primitive?

Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:37 am

Don't feed the trolls people..........
Don't judge Linux by the Pi.......
I must not tread on too many sacred cows......

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duberry
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Re: Why so primitive?

Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:14 am

@Heater
sorry i may often ramble sometimes incoherently it seems ;)

i used to fix reinstall windows for students/friends , mostly within windows ecosystem
they often would not have install media for os + software they have in their setup

the old keys did not all ways work with new media ...
updates brake the system

i dont want to pay for new licence to get install media or to become mcse/ partner ,
so i can 'fix' slow or broken 'product' when im asked to
i could go on , to infinity

but what would be the point
times change and in someway the world moves on

this is just my (somewhat limited) experience
hope that's clearer than mud
lend me your arms, fast as thunderbolts, for a pillow on my journey.
If the environment was a bank, would it be too big to fail
so long; and thanks for all the pi

Heater
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Re: Why so primitive?

Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:38 am

duberry,
i used to fix reinstall windows for students/friends , mostly within windows ecosystem
Have you ever thought about that? I mean, there have been billions and billions of Windows PC all over the planet for decades now. Most owners of computers are not so tech savvy or computer literate. Almost all of them need their machine "fixing" at some time, probably many times over the years. Most of those who are not using their machine professionally call on the help of some geek friend or family member when they need help.

That's billions of man hours often given for free to support Microsoft's products. Meanwhile MS has been collecting billions of dollars in profits.

I think MS owes all those selfless geeks who brought them to the position they have a huge rebate.

Imagine that instead of an operating system and applications it was cars or washing machines or whatever. If your friend kept buying old junkers or even new ones that constantly needed repair and always expected you to fix it you might eventually refuse and tell them to stop buying junk or learn how to fix it themselves.

coolblue2000
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Re: Why so primitive?

Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:43 am

JustSomeDude wrote:I don't want to blame anybody who made a huge work creating Raspberry PI, I just want to ask one question: why Raspberry only supports the most simple and primitive operating systems? It can only support Raspberry's standard OS, Android 2.3 and adapted version of Linux. But this little device has a power of a notebook. So, why couldn't you add a support for some advanced operating systems, such as Windows or MacOS? Or, at very least, can you give us a tutorial on how to replace ARM processor with Intel so that we could install MacOS on it? That would be very great, guys.

P.S. Sorry for my English, it's not very good
Well for one thing, Even if you could replace the arm chip with an intel one (which would defeat the whole point of the raspberry pi) you could still not run mac os on it as Apple have made it illegal to run macos on anything other than an apple machine.

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Re: Why so primitive?

Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:54 am

Imagine that instead of an operating system and applications it was cars or washing machines or whatever. If your friend kept buying old junkers or even new ones that constantly needed repair and always expected you to fix it you might eventually refuse and tell them to stop buying junk or learn how to fix it themselves.
Actually, cars are not such a good analogy, since cars are notorious for needing constant infusions of gas (and oil) to keep them running - as well as periodic "maintenance".

I think most people think of the frequent need for cleaning of their MS systems as being the same thing as the frequent need for putting gas in the car. Just part of the cost of keeping the thing running.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

Heater
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Re: Why so primitive?

Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:01 pm

Cars are a very good analogy here then,

They need regular refueling, oiling, checking, fixing. Do your friends call you to put gas in the car every time it runs low? Or ask you to perform routine maintenance on it? No. Why should they get away with it for PC maintenance?
Just part of the cost of keeping the thing running.
Exactly my point. Rather than bear that cost a lot of geeks have been performing these duties for free or in exchange for a beer.
If the users had to bear the cost as they do with their cars MS would not be where it is today.

Joe Schmoe
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Re: Why so primitive?

Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:12 pm

Exactly my point. Rather than bear that cost a lot of geeks have been performing these duties for free or in exchange for a beer.
If the users had to bear the cost as they do with their cars MS would not be where it is today.
I fail to get your point. Is someone holding a gun to their heads and making them do it for free?

Around here, PC repair/fixup [*] is a thriving business. Most (non-technie) users around here accept it as a part of life that they have to periodically take their machines in to their chosen local guru and have them do their stuff.

[*] Generally called "Spyway/virus removal" nowadays.

I don't get your point about people doing it for free.

And if people do do it for free, it must be because they enjoy it.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

Heater
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Re: Why so primitive?

Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:33 pm

Joe Schmoe,

You don't get my point. OK perhaps you live in a different world to me.

Ever since people started buying computers for themselves, even before the IBM PC, they have been calling on geek friends and family to sort out all kinds of problems. How to get the printer working, or this device or that. How to install configure software and drivers and networking and a million other things. It's not all about virus cleaning.

I have responded to such requests many times. And I have observed that it goes on all around me.

Now a days I just say sorry I don't know anything about Windows and cannot help. Which is almost true as I have not used Windows seriously since 1997.

I kind of feel that if people, in general, have been using computers for thirty years there should be some base level of understanding in the population that hey don't need the geek crutches anymore. Sadly that is not true.

You are right of course. There is always a PC store that offers such services for money. Why doesn't everyone use them?
And if people do do it for free, it must be because they enjoy it.
Perhaps. That does not change my argument though. Geeks like to show off their skills some times. And there is a lot of social pressure.

Dutch_Master
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Re: Why so primitive?

Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:51 pm

Heater wrote:[...] there is a lot of social pressure.
Which means exactly zip... There's a lot (really a LOT) of social pressure on bankers to cap or even refund their exorbitantly high bonuses after their banks where bailed out by taxpayers, but are they? :roll: :evil:

Heater
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Re: Why so primitive?

Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:16 pm

@ Dutch_Master,

No. I mean social pressure, like actual society around you. Like when your mother or sister has a problem. Then you might feel like you have to help out. Naturally enough.

Why they expect you to fix their computers as opposed to their cars has always baffled me.

By the way, there is no social pressure on bankers to cap or even refund their exorbitantly high bonuses after their banks where bailed. Do you really believe they even hear you? Their families and friends are quite happy with what they have done.

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rpdom
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Re: Why so primitive?

Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:21 am

Heater wrote:I mean social pressure, like actual society around you. Like when your mother or sister has a problem. Then you might feel like you have to help out. Naturally enough.
I always try and drop little hints that I am fed up with fixing things for family members. ("I don't do Windows" is my main one). The only one who hasn't finally realised this is my father. (and my wife, but I can't complain about that).
Why they expect you to fix their computers as opposed to their cars has always baffled me.
Actually, they used to ask me to fix their cars too...

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Re: Why so primitive?

Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:08 am

rpdom wrote:
Heater wrote:I mean social pressure, like actual society around you. Like when your mother or sister has a problem. Then you might feel like you have to help out. Naturally enough.
I always try and drop little hints that I am fed up with fixing things for family members. ("I don't do Windows" is my main one). The only one who hasn't finally realised this is my father. (and my wife, but I can't complain about that).
Why they expect you to fix their computers as opposed to their cars has always baffled me.
Actually, they used to ask me to fix their cars too...
I'm in the same boat as you haha...
I got my wife onto Linux though and she hasn't looked back, and I've just straight out told my folks that I'm too busy now with 3 young kids to help out with their computer...or their cars.
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Re: Why so primitive?

Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:35 am

Had a mate, into electronics (actually broadcast TV, like me). Man next door asked for help with his broken TV. So mate fixes it for him, no problem.
Next week man next door comes with another broken TV. Mate fixes it.
Week after, same again, mate getting fed up, charges him £20
Following week, charges £50.
Man next door stopped coming when it went up to £150

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duberry
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Re: Why so primitive?

Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:40 pm

perhaps a (more civilised?) alternative could be to start a repair cafe

at least then the man next door and others have some place to take the tv ect
other than a land fill

not that i have any thing against land fill's or planed obsolescence :roll:
--
synchronicity edit
http://imgur.com/PsgGpaf
Last edited by duberry on Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why so primitive?

Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:29 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:Imagine, just for a moment, that MS *did* make a port of a suitable version of Windows for the Pi. Something like Win RT. You would then have a $35 computer that could run a $200 OS. How many people would want to pay nearly SIX TIMES the cost of the hardware to get a copy of the OS?
Imagine however if Microsoft did create a version of Windows for the Pi and they did give it away for free.

I am not saying they want to or are even likely to but just imagine if they did, it worked, worked more than adequately, and people found it quite usable and suiting their needs.

I can see a number of advantages in doing that for Microsoft and for those who use computers as tools and have little interest in how or why they work or any interest beyond what they themselves want to do on a computer.

Many users don't care beyond 'how do I...?', have no interest as to what's beneath that thin veneer they see on their screen. If it does the job it does the job, or it doesn't. End of story for them. Most people like familiarity and for many that means Microsoft, Windows and its apps, and Microsoft are best placed to capitalise on that.

The Pi was never intended for those who seek that familiarity and never sought to capture that market sector, but it does not mean it couldn't. As noted in a recent thread; the Pi is aimed at those willing to bring some knowledge or willingness to learn to the table and Microsoft could position it as something that's turn-on and use, more familiar with a less steep learning curve.

Whilst the Pi is primarily aimed at education it is simply hardware and doesn't have to be constrained to that. Some seek to turn the Pi into a 'plug in and go' application platforms for media streaming and others could deliver the same for other uses. Anything that helps people use the Pi how they want to use it surely has to be welcomed.

Not that Windows on a Pi is ever likely to happen but if it did it doesn't follow that things would be all bad. Some would indeed welcome it.

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Re: Why so primitive?

Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:54 pm

Didn't the rise of Microsoft Windows and its alleged familiarity (and decisions that it should dominate* ), in schools, directly lead to the rise of the problems that the Raspberry Pi was created to address, though?

*The "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" policy should certainly indicate that what would follow in this hypothetical situation is likely to be bad.
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Re: Why so primitive?

Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:12 pm

People tend to forget that if somehow magically windows would run on the PI it would mean exactly nothing for people wanting to run windows applications on the PI, as no standard windows application would run on "pi-windows", as they too are all compiled to run on an X86 architecture, not on the PI's ARM architecture!

For PI-windows to be useful all (most of) the normal Windows applications should be re-compiled too, which is much easier for a system that is actually designed to support multiple CPU architectures, than for Windows, which has all its apps built specifically for x86, which makes them hard to re-compile for another CPU architecture.

P.S. yes, I know there is supposedly a version of windows 8 running on ARM, but the same non running of x86 applications applies, (and even the ARM applications compiled for it probably would not run on the PI's ARM, as different versions of ARM are used).

The limitations above also apply for Windows-CE (and later incarnations) which are more or less "windows" in name only, and also cannot run the standard x86 windows applications.

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cyrano
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Re: Why so primitive?

Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:03 pm

mahjongg wrote:People tend to forget that if somehow magically windows would run on the PI it would mean exactly nothing, as no standard windows application would run on "pi-windows", as they are all compiled to run on an X86 architecture, not on the PI's ARM architecture!
Why would the average user "remember" this? Even Microsoft tried it and failed very big time with Windows RT. They're clearing stock now.

Just because everybody assumes backward compatibility...

Joe Schmoe
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Re: Why so primitive?

Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:16 pm

I think that when people talk about running Windows on the Pi, that's what they mean (running Windows just like they do on their other computers, running the same apps, and everything).

Which is, of course, impossible.

Or, as I like to say: Sometimes, the answer is "No."
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

Heater
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Re: Why so primitive?

Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:33 pm

LemmeFatale,
Didn't the rise of Microsoft Windows and its alleged familiarity (and decisions that it should dominate* ), in schools, directly lead to the rise of the problems that the Raspberry Pi was created to address, though?
I have to answer. Very positively. Yes.

From the very beginning of MS the idea was: "We program, you do not. You pay us to do that hassle for you" See Bill Gates' letter to hobbyists from 1976: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Letter_to_Hobbyists

Given the mission of the Raspberry Pi foundation is to foster programming skills in the future generations then MS or any closed source system has no place in the scheme of things. Shame about the Raspi's GPU but it's a good start.

For those who want Windows on ARM I understand MS is cutting the price of Windows RT on whatever tabs they have.

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Lob0426
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Re: Why so primitive?

Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:57 am

@hippy
If Microsoft was smart, they would take a page out of the early Apple playbook. Make a version for the RasPi. Get kids interested in their "new" mobile OS. Make programming and multi-media software for it. Then port that same software, that the kids already know onto other ARM devices.

The software for schools they would charge next to nothing. The other devices would get them their profit.

It worked for "Macintosh"!
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Dutch_Master
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Re: Why so primitive?

Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:50 am

Fortunately they aren't that smart in Redmond ;) Last thing we need is another monopoly of that magnitude on the education of youngsters, teaching them to stifle industries by brainwashing pure undiluted capitalism into their young minds over innovation, freedom and open (read as: honest!) entrepreneurship... :roll:

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