JustSomeDude
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:35 am

Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:56 am

I don't want to blame anybody who made a huge work creating Raspberry PI, I just want to ask one question: why Raspberry only supports the most simple and primitive operating systems? It can only support Raspberry's standard OS, Android 2.3 and adapted version of Linux. But this little device has a power of a notebook. So, why couldn't you add a support for some advanced operating systems, such as Windows or MacOS? Or, at very least, can you give us a tutorial on how to replace ARM processor with Intel so that we could install MacOS on it? That would be very great, guys.

P.S. Sorry for my English, it's not very good

ShiftPlusOne
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 5790
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:36 pm
Location: The unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:45 am

Putting aside the fact that there is nothing primitive about linux... It's not that the Raspberry Pi does not support the operating systems you mention, it's that the operating systems you mention do not support the pi. Only the people who have the source code for windows and mac osx can even begin thinking about running those systems on the pi. You can't simply remove the ARM and slap an Intel in its place. The board is designed around the CPU/GPU chip. Embedded processors like this one aren't as standardised as the x86 ones. Imagine if every desktop cpu had its own special socket and the pins were completely different on all of them... that's sort of how this is.

User avatar
Hove
Posts: 1205
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: Cotswolds, UK
Contact: Website

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:10 am

Sorry up front if this sounds in any way patronising - it's supposed to sound explanatory, but neither text nor emoticons allow me to show the difference in my witterings below.

Windows and iOS are closed rather than Open Source so you'd have either pay hundreds for them as that's how MS / Apple make their money, or you could pay them many thousands to have your own copy of their code, and do the work yourself, and even then you'd be under contractual obligation to charge for the resulting OS, undoubtedly hundreds of pounds, just like Windows and iOS now, and give a significant proportion of that cash to MS / Apple.

Or of course, you could use an operating system like Google uses for its tablets and laptops under the Android brand, and then realize that it's just Linux with a pretty face and a few apps glued on.

So actually all that's missing is the modern pretty face, and that's coming soon in the shape of Wayland / Weston http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/4053.

Oh, and the critical point, once you stick a pretty face on it, it becomes just a low cost, low power laptop / PC / tablet. The RaspberryPi offers so much more than that by not automatically using the pretty face, but instead flashing its internal gore, and motivation grown ups and kids to tinker and learn.
www.pistuffing.co.uk - Raspberry Pi and other stuffing!

Heater
Posts: 12976
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:13 am

JustSomeDude,
... why Raspberry only supports the most simple and primitive operating systems?
Does it?. There is nothing primitive about Linux. It's been my workstation OS since 1997 and has since become the operating system that runs the internet.

Linux is not CP/M or MSDOS. Start studying what you can do with the Linux kernel and all the operating systems that use it and all the user level software on top of that and you will be busy for a life time or two.

Then there is BSD...

I'm curious, what "advanced" features of Windows or MacOS would you like to see on the Pi ? Perhaps we can suggest ways to do what you want.
...give us a tutorial on how to replace ARM processor with Intel...
This question shows us that you understanding of computers is very limited. Some time spent with the Pi would further your understanding a great deal. Indeed that is what the Pi is for.

Finally, if you want Windows or MacOS on any architecture that they do not support the best you can do is ask their creators to think about creating versions that do support that architecture. I am very sure you will have very little luck with that. It's not the Foundations fault.
Last edited by Heater on Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
rpdom
Posts: 14778
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 5:17 am
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:18 am

Do Not Feed The Troll!

JustSomeDude
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:35 am

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:09 pm

@Heater,
Well, my understanding in computers goes deep in program part, but as it goes to hardware I become completely helpless, so I'm sorry for that mistake.Thanks guys, now I understand why we couldn't just port OS to PI

JustSomeDude
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:35 am

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:18 pm

But I think that MicroSoft should start thinking about porting Windows to PI because it's a pretty cheap device. If they will start selling Windows for PI That would become a cheap way to get a medium-power PC

Dutch_Master
Posts: 360
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:36 am

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:20 pm

In which case your input (s'cuse the pun ;) ) as programmer would be welcomed by the community :)

M$ has nothing on the RPi, because their main revenue maker doesn't run on ARM. Forget any paid OS's, it's not happening on the RPi. You seem to forget why the RPi exists in the first place, and that is most certainly not to provide proprietary companies to extort even more money from clueless users :evil: :roll:

Heater
Posts: 12976
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:16 pm

JustSomeDude,
... my understanding in computers goes deep in program part
Clearly not deep enough. Had you gone deep you would have discovered assembly language and that point you would have understood that there are more CPU architectures in the world than x86.
I think that MicroSoft should start thinking about porting Windows to PI because it's a pretty cheap device
Who would use it?
It would be horrible slow.
None of your favorite Windows applications will run on it. You forget that "architecture" difference again. Windows apps won't run on ARM. Unless their vendors rebuild them, which is not going to happen.
Do you know how much Windows licences are? That would quadruple or more the cost of you Pi system. MS don't want to give their OS away.

I'm still curious. What are the features or functionality in Windows that you would like on the Pi?

JustSomeDude
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:35 am

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:18 pm

[quote]
...Clearly not deep enough. Had you gone deep you would have discovered assembly language and that point you would have understood that there are more CPU architectures in the world than x86.
[quote/]

I know, but I didn't give a reason of that. And I know that was awfully stupid. Sorry

[quote]
...What are the features of the functionality of Windows would you like on PI?
[quote/]

Many of them. 3D modelling software, at least. I didn't find one yet. If you would give me any info, I would really appreciate it.

JustSomeDude
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:35 am

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:19 pm

Sorry for that quotes

ghans
Posts: 7868
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:30 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:25 pm

TBH ,
3D modeling software won't run great on Windows on a
2009 1,6 GHz Atom either. There are other problems which
are more relevant than that the Pi doesn't run Windows.

ghans
• Don't like the board ? Missing features ? Change to the prosilver theme ! You can find it in your settings.
• Don't like to search the forum BEFORE posting 'cos it's useless ? Try googling : yoursearchtermshere site:raspberrypi.org

ShiftPlusOne
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 5790
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:36 pm
Location: The unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:37 pm

There is Blender, which is excellent 3D modelling software. However, 3D modelling requires a lot of memory and a decent CPU to go beyond basic shapes. Rendering without hardware acceleration would also be painfully slow. 'aegis' was/is working on an opengl -> opengl es shim which seems to work, but I don't think it's in a usable state for things like blender yet.

Either way, the OS is irrelevant here. If the pi ran windows and somehow maya or 3ds max was ported to ARM, 3d modelling of anything other than simple shapes would not be possible.

ghans
Posts: 7868
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:30 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:45 pm

I guess via

Code: Select all

 sudo apt-get install libgl1-mesa-swx11 blender
you can check yourself how slow Blender runs on the Pi
(the GPU can't be utilized by Blender yet) .

ghans
• Don't like the board ? Missing features ? Change to the prosilver theme ! You can find it in your settings.
• Don't like to search the forum BEFORE posting 'cos it's useless ? Try googling : yoursearchtermshere site:raspberrypi.org

User avatar
Lob0426
Posts: 2198
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:30 pm
Location: Susanville CA.
Contact: Website

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:24 pm

Microsoft has made software for low resource mobile devices before (CE and its variants). The problem is that it would triple (or more) the cost of the RasPi to use it. They would also try to design it to lock the device only to Microsoft software. Ala Widows 8.

The next best would be Ubuntu, but they are not willing to port a version for the Raspberry Pi. I am kind of surprised at that now that there are about 1.5 million of them out there.

The biggest problem for people and Linux is the nerd factor. There is a generation of people that have grown up with windows doing everything for them. Linux does not work like that. Linux variants require you to learn to make them do what you need.

example: installer + command + switches + path + install to path.
Windows you just click to install. It will find its own path (program files). In the desktop you have to open a terminal or something like synaptic package manager to install a program.

Now none of that is so much different from MSDOS back when, but the newer generation has never seen MSDOS! It's there underneath Windows, but they have most likely never used it.

How often have you ever had to use command com? I mostly have needed it only foe network diagnosis.
512MB version 2.0 as WordPress Server
Motorola Lapdock with Pi2B
Modded Rev 1.0 with pin headers at USB

http://rich1.dyndns.tv/
(RS)Allied ships old stock to reward its Customers for long wait!

gyeben
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:38 pm
Location: Hungary, Eger

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:09 pm

JustSomeDude wrote:But this little device has a power of a notebook.
It has the power of a really old notebook.
JustSomeDude wrote: So, why couldn't you add a support for some advanced operating systems, such as Windows or MacOS?
As it has been mentioned before, the software has to support the hardware, not the hardware has to support the software.

And finally: Linux. Is. Not. Primitive. (Nor Simple.) ;)

User avatar
rpdom
Posts: 14778
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 5:17 am
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:21 pm

Microsoft being Microsoft, they would either demand that the bootcode/firmware be modified to only allow booting into Windows (which they have done on some other ARM devices), or say that every Pi must include a Windows Licence (for an additional cost) whether that Pi has been shipped with Windows or not (yes, they have been doing that with PCs for many years).

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10625
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:23 pm

JustSomeDude wrote:But I think that MicroSoft should start thinking about porting Windows to PI because it's a pretty cheap device. If they will start selling Windows for PI That would become a cheap way to get a medium-power PC
Imagine, just for a moment, that MS *did* make a port of a suitable version of Windows for the Pi. Something like Win RT. You would then have a $35 computer that could run a $200 OS. How many people would want to pay nearly SIX TIMES the cost of the hardware to get a copy of the OS?

One of the absolutely FANTASTIC things about the Pi,and a major part of what I think has made it such a success, is that it is so cheap that, if broken, it can be replaced without looking at your household budget. Running the effective cost high enough to buy some version of Windows would severely--and adversely--impact that aspect of the Pi.

As it is, Linux, has pretty much as much functionality as Windows, plus a great deal more. You can find programs that can do pretty much everything that can be done on Windows without paying the sometimes astronomical prices for them. Plus you have access to the "nuts and bolts" of the system--something you will never get from MS or Apple.

Joe Schmoe
Posts: 4277
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Why so primitive?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:19 pm

How often have you ever had to use command com? I mostly have needed it only foe network diagnosis.
I haven't used COMMAND.COM in years.

But I use CMD.EXE every day.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

User avatar
Lob0426
Posts: 2198
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:30 pm
Location: Susanville CA.
Contact: Website

Re: Why so primitive?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:04 am

Joe Schmoe wrote:
How often have you ever had to use command com? I mostly have needed it only foe network diagnosis.
I haven't used COMMAND.COM in years.

But I use CMD.EXE every day.
:lol: I should have said command prompt
512MB version 2.0 as WordPress Server
Motorola Lapdock with Pi2B
Modded Rev 1.0 with pin headers at USB

http://rich1.dyndns.tv/
(RS)Allied ships old stock to reward its Customers for long wait!

surfatwork
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:26 am

Re: Why so primitive?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:15 am

Regardless of whether Microshaft would port Windoze to ARM/the Pi or not, why "would" you want Windoze on the Pi? It is heavy and bloated. There is a linux alternative for almost every Windoze application, and the remaining 1% (may be apps like Photoshop) shouldnt be run on the Pi in any case.
and as already stated - Linux is not primitive. In fact, I would suggest that it is actually more advanced than Windows in many instances. Sure, Windoze has a good UI - or atleast one that more people are used to. But several things we take for granted (such as TCP/IP networking - anyone remember winsock?, or built-in security using access rights/ non-root user logins) werent even available on Windows for many years. Filesystem support in linux is far more extensive that on Windows.

User avatar
MattHawkinsUK
Posts: 538
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:48 pm
Location: UK
Contact: Website

Re: Why so primitive?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:22 am

"Or, at very least, can you give us a tutorial on how to replace ARM processor with Intel so that we could install MacOS on it?"

It's easy. You'll need a soldering iron, screwdriver and a lump hammer.

1. Carefully remove CPU/GPU/Memory with the lump hammer and screwdriver.
2. Buy a Mac.
3. Install MacOS.

In the end you might find you don't really need the soldering iron.
My Raspberry Pi blog and home of the BerryClip Add-on board : http://www.raspberrypi-spy.co.uk/
Follow me on Google+, Facebook, Pinterest and Twitter (@RPiSpy)

Joe Schmoe
Posts: 4277
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Why so primitive?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:31 am

In the end you might find you don't really need the soldering iron.
Yes, but you did leave out one of the requirements: A credit card
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

Heater
Posts: 12976
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Why so primitive?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:29 pm

If you want less "primitive" and probably the possibility to run Windows here is the board for you:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/31 ... source_pc/
Of course it is nearly 10 times the Price of the Pi. And then you will need your Windows license as well.

keybeeper
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:15 am

Re: Why so primitive?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:38 pm

Have a look at this; old but still relevant:

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
No Microsoft products were used in the creation of this message

Return to “General discussion”