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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:13 am
by adlambert
hzrnbgy said:


Debating with a Linux zealot is an exercise in futility. Don't get me wrong, I use Linux at work, I have a Linux webserver, I own an Android phone, I code in Linux, etc.

The moment you say something against their religion, they get back to you with their big guns.


Yes, the denial within linux community is deafening, but I usually don't bother to raise the subject anymore because I'm not going to get anywhere. but in my opinion the zealots themselves are one of the and biggest obstacle to wider adoption.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:16 am
by adlambert
Tass said:





And of course making the recovery of a broken OS as simple as swapping out an SD card


I hear this again and again about the Raspberry Pi. Guess what folks? It's just as easy to set up a windows PC to recover in the same manner.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:18 am
by exartemarte
adlambert said:


hzrnbgy said:


Debating with a Linux zealot is an exercise in futility. Don't get me wrong, I use Linux at work, I have a Linux webserver, I own an Android phone, I code in Linux, etc.

The moment you say something against their religion, they get back to you with their big guns.


Yes, the denial within linux community is deafening, but I usually don't bother to raise the subject anymore because I'm not going to get anywhere. but in my opinion the zealots themselves are one of the and biggest obstacle to wider adoption.


A bit like man-made global warming, then...

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:44 am
by mole125
adlambert said:


Tass said:


And of course making the recovery of a broken OS as simple as swapping out an SD card


I hear this again and again about the Raspberry Pi. Guess what folks? It's just as easy to set up a windows PC to recover in the same manner.


Really? Windows won't fit on a sensibly priced SD card. Physically swapping internal hard drives is beyond the scope of what a teacher would be allowed to do, they are more fragile and take up more storage space which counts out booting windows from an external USB hard disk. There are disk imaging software and the like, but proper systems are generally more expensive and complex, or just take longer than a lesson.

4/8gb SD cards are very cheap and even the most technophobe teacher can comprehend pulling out the existing card and replacing it with one from the box of pre-prepared cards.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:49 am
by adlambert
mole125 said:


adlambert said:


Tass said:


And of course making the recovery of a broken OS as simple as swapping out an SD card


I hear this again and again about the Raspberry Pi. Guess what folks? It"s just as easy to set up a windows PC to recover in the same manner.


Really? Windows won"t fit on a sensibly priced SD card. Physically swapping internal hard drives is beyond the scope of what a teacher would be allowed to do, they are more fragile and take up more storage space which counts out booting windows from an external USB hard disk. There are disk imaging software and the like, but proper systems are generally more expensive and complex, or just take longer than a lesson.

4/8gb SD cards are very cheap and even the most technophobe teacher can comprehend pulling out the existing card and replacing it with one from the box of pre-prepared cards.


It rarely happens, and I"ve only ever had to do it once but I have a DVD that I just shove in, it boots and re-images. All very quick and easy for my sons laptop.

I can also set up so he boots straight into a VM, keep a copy of that VM (or even a regularly updated backup of it) and just re-attach the backed up VM.

No rocket science, all very straightforward and just as easy as copying an image to an SD card (and having to find another computer to do it on).

In fact, in training courses I have been on involving PCs, they are all re-imaged between classes so they all start fresh without lab work from previous class being left behind. Absolutely no issue or problem there to be solved.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:56 am
by Pirx-Danford
I really don't get the cheap pot shots against Linux.

1) The decision to cooperate with official distributors and to make Linux the official default choice is not excluding any other OS that you might want to use.

2) It allows to use a gigantic heap of existing software and documentation.

So why is this any issue at all?

Just create something better if you want to.

No I don't mean "go away and STFU" - I really mean "be creative and make something, come back here and brag about it, share it, let everyone take part!"

Oh and please, make a public codebase, like on github and such, put links to the project in the raspberry wiki

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:01 am
by jamesh
I agree. Linux is only as complex as you want to make it. You can make Windows just as complex too, and yet people don't complain that it's not for begineers.

My father uses Ubuntu. Does all he wants it to do. He doesn't even know it's Linux.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:02 am
by hzrnbgy

4/8gb SD cards are very cheap and even the most technophobe teacher can comprehend pulling out the existing card and replacing it with one from the box of pre-prepared cards.



How is a pre-prepared SD card any different than a pre-image Windows drive? Or pulling a hard drive from a HDD cage than pulling an SD card? Its the same thing, only one is way faster than the other, and you can actually do some productive work.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:04 am
by jamesh
adlambert said:


hzrnbgy said:


Debating with a Linux zealot is an exercise in futility. Don't get me wrong, I use Linux at work, I have a Linux webserver, I own an Android phone, I code in Linux, etc.

The moment you say something against their religion, they get back to you with their big guns.


Yes, the denial within linux community is deafening, but I usually don't bother to raise the subject anymore because I'm not going to get anywhere. but in my opinion the zealots themselves are one of the and biggest obstacle to wider adoption.


Is it any worse than the zealots in the Windows community or the Mac community, or the iPhone community or the Android community. Once, possibly. Now? I'm not so sure.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:16 am
by andyl
hzrnbgy said:



4/8gb SD cards are very cheap and even the most technophobe teacher can comprehend pulling out the existing card and replacing it with one from the box of pre-prepared cards.



How is a pre-prepared SD card any different than a pre-image Windows drive? Or pulling a hard drive from a HDD cage than pulling an SD card? Its the same thing, only one is way faster than the other, and you can actually do some productive work.


1)  Cost.  An SD card is very much cheaper than a HDD.  Secondly a Windows drive requires hardware capable of running Windows.  It requires you to pay the Windows licensing fee.  Very much more expensive.

2) My non-computer literate sister, or my 7 year old nephew, understand about SD cards, how to insert and remove them.  That they contain data.  If I gave them a screwdriver and told them to pull a drive and insert a new one they would be lost.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:32 am
by poing
hzrnbgy said:



4/8gb SD cards are very cheap and even the most technophobe teacher can comprehend pulling out the existing card and replacing it with one from the box of pre-prepared cards.



How is a pre-prepared SD card any different than a pre-image Windows drive? Or pulling a hard drive from a HDD cage than pulling an SD card? Its the same thing, only one is way faster than the other, and you can actually do some productive work.


You have to activate Windows. If you buy a cheap builders-license you can only use it with one motherboard. If you buy a more expensive retail-license you can only use it on one computer at a time and must deactivate it before you can activate it on another.

The beauty of a no-cost OS on SD cards is that you can plug them in any Pi you want.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:44 am
by Chris.Rowland
Yes much worse.  There's a group of Linux zealots here who are arrogant, rude, exclusive and patronising. They are totally unhelpful - if anything their helpfulness is negative because they drive reasonable people away, so depriving us of their help.

There's no shame in having no aptitude or interest in helping beginners, not everyone is that way. But to actively dismiss and discourage beginners, especially on a forum devoted to a device whose entire raison d'etre is for education is shameful. The people doing it should be ashamed of themselves.

It isn't everyone. Some people are both knowledgeable and helpful. We need more of them and much less zealotry.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:54 am
by hzrnbgy
andyl said:


hzrnbgy said:



4/8gb SD cards are very cheap and even the most technophobe teacher can comprehend pulling out the existing card and replacing it with one from the box of pre-prepared cards.



How is a pre-prepared SD card any different than a pre-image Windows drive? Or pulling a hard drive from a HDD cage than pulling an SD card? Its the same thing, only one is way faster than the other, and you can actually do some productive work.


1)  Cost.  An SD card is very much cheaper than a HDD.  Secondly a Windows drive requires hardware capable of running Windows.  It requires you to pay the Windows licensing fee.  Very much more expensive.

2) My non-computer literate sister, or my 7 year old nephew, understand about SD cards, how to insert and remove them.  That they contain data.  If I gave them a screwdriver and told them to pull a drive and insert a new one they would be lost.



how about we talk numbers

16GB SDcard = $12.00

500GB HDD = $85.00

the SDcard costs $0.75/GB while the HDD costs a whopping $0.17/GB.

How is a $35 Pi/Linux combo any cheaper than $270 Win netbook? Factor in your HDMI monitor, keyboard, mouse, powered USB hub, decent power supply, some nice case, a decent size SDcard, time spent to make the contraption somewhat portable, time spent compiling/dd-ing your distribution, maybe some more time spent making the USB wifi work, and a lot of time spent waiting for your browser/word processor/etc to load from the uberfast class 99 SD card. Oh before I forget, time spent navigating the web looking for guide on how to patch your kernel, make X work with OpenGL, etc.

I bet your sister/nephew is capable of DDing the Debian image unto the SDcard. Ohh snap, she might as well use win32diskimager to do the same thing with less time spent on researching what dd, mmcblk02, /dev/null, uboot, etc are.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:06 pm
by hzrnbgy
I'm not a Linux hater here as I use it myself. I have a Pandaboard and just pre-ordered my RPi a couple weeks back. I just don't like people who are so blinded with fanboyism that they do not contribute any at all to the mission of the foundation.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:13 pm
by markb
mole125 said:


Really? Windows won't fit on a sensibly priced SD card.



I'll just pop in to correct you on that, you can fit an XP image onto a 4 GB card quite easily & Win 7 will happily boot up on an 8 GB card.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:24 pm
by scep
hzrnbgy said:


How is a $35 Pi/Linux combo any cheaper than $270 Win netbook? Factor in your HDMI monitor, keyboard, mouse, powered USB hub, decent power supply, some nice case, a decent size SDcard, time spent to make the contraption somewhat portable, time spent compiling/dd-ing your distribution, maybe some more time spent making the USB wifi work, and a lot of time spent waiting for your browser/word processor/etc to load from the uberfast class 99 SD card. Oh before I forget, time spent navigating the web looking for guide on how to patch your kernel, make X work with OpenGL, etc.


Your straw man appears to be missing an ARM. Poor chap

Here's an alternative scenario (this one actually happened ):

Hook up to an old TV that was hiding under the stairs the stairs; write image onto unused SD card from an old camera & insert into RasPi; plug in £5 keyboard and mouse; plug in HTC phone charger that had been unused in the drawer for two years.

Time from getting my RasPi till I'm programming in Python: c.10 minutes

Total cost: £37

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:26 pm
by hippy
Chris Rowland said:


There's a group of Linux zealots here who are arrogant, rude, exclusive and patronising. They are totally unhelpful - if anything their helpfulness is negative because they drive reasonable people away, so depriving us of their help.


That's much like the old days of Computer Boffins, white coats and pipes, a protectionist and elitist clique living in ivory towers, where those who did not have the understanding were often treated with contempt. You were either in or out, with little help to get over the threshold. You either knew it or were not worthy of knowing it.

That does seem to live on in parts of the Linux universe but hopefully the R-Pi and its community will help newcomers and those less familiar with Linux in providing help and advice at the level which helps them learn and understand.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:46 pm
by markb
scep said:


hzrnbgy said:


How is a $35 Pi/Linux combo any cheaper than $270 Win netbook? Factor in your HDMI monitor, keyboard, mouse, powered USB hub, decent power supply, some nice case, a decent size SDcard, time spent to make the contraption somewhat portable, time spent compiling/dd-ing your distribution, maybe some more time spent making the USB wifi work, and a lot of time spent waiting for your browser/word processor/etc to load from the uberfast class 99 SD card. Oh before I forget, time spent navigating the web looking for guide on how to patch your kernel, make X work with OpenGL, etc.


Your straw man appears to be missing an ARM. Poor chap

Here's an alternative scenario (this one actually happened ):

Hook up to an old TV that was hiding under the stairs the stairs; write image onto unused SD card from an old camera & insert into RasPi; plug in £5 keyboard and mouse; plug in HTC phone charger that had been unused in the drawer for two years.

Time from getting my RasPi till I'm programming in Python: c.10 minutes

Total cost: £37



On the face of it, a very modestly priced set -up. Unfortunately you haven't included the cost of the telly,  camera & charger.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:51 pm
by frying_fish
markb said:


On the face of it, a very modestly priced set -up. Unfortunately you haven't included the cost of the telly,  camera & charger.


The point of his argument is that he is making use of old materials already available around the house. I don't think at any point anyone has suggested you have to go out and buy a new television to use this. The idea is to use the television you have available, whether it is HDMI compatible, or needs to use composite, this can provide both. The charger, again the choice of power connection to make use of materials typically already available in a home these days, or are very cheaply available (c. £8). The SD card mentioned is an "old" "already available" card, or again you can purchase one for under £10 that will be more than capable.

So that leaves say a total cost of £40-50 if you had to go out and buy these extra bits. The idea though is to use what is already available. If you had to buy a tv that was capable of receiving either composite or HDMI it would skew it, but I'm going to say not right now.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:53 pm
by jamesh
Chris Rowland said:


Yes much worse.  There's a group of Linux zealots here who are arrogant, rude, exclusive and patronising. They are totally unhelpful - if anything their helpfulness is negative because they drive reasonable people away, so depriving us of their help.

There's no shame in having no aptitude or interest in helping beginners, not everyone is that way. But to actively dismiss and discourage beginners, especially on a forum devoted to a device whose entire raison d'etre is for education is shameful. The people doing it should be ashamed of themselves.

It isn't everyone. Some people are both knowledgeable and helpful. We need more of them and much less zealotry.


Who? Not noticed to much of it myself. I assume I'm not one since I am pretty much pretty hopeless on the command line, so don't have the knowledge to be a arrogant!

But I reiterate, arrogance is not limited to Linux people. You find it in all walks of life.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:54 pm
by hzrnbgy
scep said:


hzrnbgy said:


How is a $35 Pi/Linux combo any cheaper than $270 Win netbook? Factor in your HDMI monitor, keyboard, mouse, powered USB hub, decent power supply, some nice case, a decent size SDcard, time spent to make the contraption somewhat portable, time spent compiling/dd-ing your distribution, maybe some more time spent making the USB wifi work, and a lot of time spent waiting for your browser/word processor/etc to load from the uberfast class 99 SD card. Oh before I forget, time spent navigating the web looking for guide on how to patch your kernel, make X work with OpenGL, etc.


Your straw man appears to be missing an ARM. Poor chap

Here's an alternative scenario (this one actually happened ):

Hook up to an old TV that was hiding under the stairs the stairs; write image onto unused SD card from an old camera & insert into RasPi; plug in £5 keyboard and mouse; plug in HTC phone charger that had been unused in the drawer for two years.

Time from getting my RasPi till I'm programming in Python: c.10 minutes

Total cost: £37



I'd like to see that setup realised in a portability scenario. And programming, on an old CRT TV? You or your kids must be eating lots of Vitamin A rich vegetables. I have good eyes but I refuse to type/read/debug lengthy codes on a composite only CRT TV. I wouldn't want my kids in front of an old CRT TV doing their homework.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:54 pm
by scep
markb said:

On the face of it, a very modestly priced set -up. Unfortunately you haven't included the cost of the telly,  camera & charger.
You have completely missed the point:


TV lying under stairs for last three years: no charge
SD card from old camera lying unused in drawer for ages: no charge
Charger, never used since I bought the phone two years ago: no charge.

Not everyone will have these things lying about, but I was just making a real-life counterpoint  to the straw man.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:57 pm
by frying_fish
Anyone else find this argument is going round in circles?

If they really feel it isn't worth their time, then why don't these people just ignore and it go spend their time on something else more worthwhile to themselves.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:01 pm
by poing
hzrnbgy said:


I'd like to see that setup realised in a portability scenario. And programming, on an old CRT TV? You or your kids must be eating lots of Vitamin A rich vegetables. I have good eyes but I refuse to type/read/debug lengthy codes on a composite only CRT TV. I wouldn't want my kids in front of an old CRT TV doing their homework.


You don't want to work with lenghty codes on a netbook either. I have one and like it very much, even installed Visual Studio on it but to get some real work done I'd rather have a bigger screen.

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:01 pm
by markb
scep said:


markb said:


On the face of it, a very modestly priced set -up. Unfortunately you haven't included the cost of the telly,  camera & charger.


You have completely missed the point:


TV lying under stairs for last three years: no charge
SD card from old camera lying unused in drawer for ages: no charge
Charger, never used since I bought the phone two years ago: no charge.

Not everyone will have these things lying about, but I was just making a real-life counterpoint  to the straw man.


I *did* get your point! However I think trying to compare the cost of getting a Rpi up and running to buying a cheap laptop *is* missing the point. There are not the same thing.

It's rather like saying I could re-program a cheap home router (as they run a version of Linux) and use that instead of a Rpi, and the router comes with a case AND a power supply, so the router is better.

(see here for example): http://sarwiki.informatik.hu-b.....and_Router