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markb
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:35 am

For what it's worth, there were similiar debates about the OLPC when it was launched, with plenty of people complaining that it should be running a version of windows 'cos that's what everyone used at work.

As plenty of people have pointed out, the Rpi is not a cool home computer to do your homework on, nor is it competing with the current crop of cheap laptops or set-top media servers.  Of course no one knows what will happen if, or once, Rpis are out in the wild in the hands of children, but I suspect these debates will seem very odd by then.

adlambert

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:36 am

lewmur said:


The whole point of the Pi is that not every kid has a "computer at home".  Now, for $35, they can have their own "computer at home".


Is that really the "whole" point?

We have I think about 14 working computers with keyboard/mouse/display/internet in the house. We still want a Pi.

Not because it's cheap and affordable (in its home market computer ownership is near ubiquitous), but because its take-up is going to create a "cohesive collaborative community" that we would like to be involved in.

And I like alliterations.

Pirx-Danford
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:43 am

adlambert said:


Is that really the "whole" point?


For the foundation yes and its a formidable goal to pursue.

The side effect of heralding a new era of computing (because I really believe this is happening here) is just collateral damage

adlambert

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:50 am

scep said:


markb said:


On the face of it, a very modestly priced set -up. Unfortunately you haven't included the cost of the telly,  camera & charger.


You have completely missed the point:


TV lying under stairs for last three years: no charge
SD card from old camera lying unused in drawer for ages: no charge
Charger, never used since I bought the phone two years ago: no charge.

Not everyone will have these things lying about, but I was just making a real-life counterpoint  to the straw man.



Even if the point was missed, the original point didn't have much relevance. OK, so somebody had a 32" Loewe CRT TV kicking around doing nothing. Anecdotally, that's great. I've got dual core laptops kicking around doing nothing. If I was to dust one of these off then I've got my programming platform for free. No need to go and get a bank loan to pay for my R-Pi.

Speaking parochially, and for the R-Pi home market, the affordability is NOT the critical factor or even an important one. As a secondary effect the low cost has caused a lot of publicity and interest and helped to get the Pi its great start. But, the cost of computing has not been the  barrier to kids etc starting to code, as people seem to want to believe.

People often make the comparison to the 1980s when home computer use took off and people started coding. Back then the BBC Model B cost the equivalent of well over a grand when you work back to comparable salary then. The ZX81 even, would be a couple of hundred. That didn't stop them.

adlambert

Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:51 am

Pirx Danford said:


adlambert said:


Is that really the "whole" point?


For the foundation yes and its a formidable goal to pursue.

The side effect of heralding a new era of computing (because I really believe this is happening here) is just collateral damage



Don't believe it for 1 second. The foundation have more ability and imagination and ambition to be that limited in scope.

Pirx-Danford
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:12 am

adlambert said:


Pirx Danford said:


adlambert said:


Is that really the "whole" point?


For the foundation yes and its a formidable goal to pursue.

The side effect of heralding a new era of computing (because I really believe this is happening here) is just collateral damage


Don't believe it for 1 second. The foundation have more ability and imagination and ambition to be that limited in scope.


Uh well I am in Germany and it might be not as bad here in comparison to what I hear in the UK about computing education.

But even here in Germany to call the task of getting IT skills at least up to par seems like an incredible tough task to tackle, so I would not call that limited... if they manage to pull that off I will be completely awed. Well and having an affordable device is just one of the small bricks in the advancement of education.

What I meant was that they have no ambitions business-wise to create other devices or compete with the existing market for different reasons. But that the focus is teaching kids and this consists of so much more than the device(s) involved!

CarlFriedrich
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:57 am

A couple of thoughts I have about the pi.

First of all: it's as cool as it gets.  It's tiny and it's a proper computer that does everything a computer needs to do, for virtually no money.  It doesn't get any better than that.

I suspect that the majority of the people here, the people aware of how cool it is, already have some experience with electronics or computer science.  So not the target audience.

If I were to advice a kid interested in computer science before (kids afraid to ruin a PC), I would advice them to install a virtual machine and try away.  The way I used to do this, was using old, half-broken PCs to experiment on.  Now obviously the pi beats both old PCs and virtualisation in coolness, which is important to lure them in.  But as much as I want to, I can't see any other (more practical) reason why the pi would add something to a normal PC.

The choice for linux is justified.  I see Windows more as on OS for end-users.  Certainly for experimenting, programming and discovering how a computer functions, Linux is the best choice.  There's not much experimenting with closed source software, unless you're willing to start messing with decompiled code.   I also suspect that the choice for x86 + licenses for Windows would increase the price tag a lot.

I know there's loads of info around about linux and programming, but imo it's essential to select and provide basic guides to get them started.

I hope the pi is a success and I certainly will recommend it to all kids remotely interested in computers.

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exartemarte
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:21 am

CarlFriedrich said:


I see Windows more as on OS for end-users.  Certainly for experimenting, programming and discovering how a computer functions, Linux is the best choice.  There's not much experimenting with closed source software ...


I think you've put your finger on it. The ninety-whatever percent of PCs and laptops running Windows are for work, games or the Internet. Linux is for those like to tinker - aka geeks. And I don't mean geeks in any pejorative sense: I don't think he's used the word, but Eben Upton is pretty clear that it's the young geeks - the future scientists and engineers - that his project is aimed at.

Unlike some, I don't think RPi will change the world. I do think it will help some bright youngsters to discover an interest and a talent that they will develop, to both their benefit and ours.

And I get a great new toy for not much more than a microcontroller board. Eventually...

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zag
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:26 am

The OP kinda has a point.

Its a shame there isn't a Kids version of linux really with just the programming tools and a web browser installed.
Unofficial Raspberry Pi Forums - www.raspberrypiforums.com

bredman
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:39 am

zag said:


The OP kinda has a point.

Its a shame there isn't a Kids version of linux really with just the programming tools and a web browser installed.


This is exactly what is being built for the Raspberry Pi.

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:46 am

zag said:


Its a shame there isn't a Kids version of linux really with just the programming tools and a web browser installed.


It's a matter of opinion, obviously, but I think a "kids' version" is the last thing they need. Bright kids will get their heads round Linux and the Pi, and they are the ones who lose out in the world of closed operating systems and expensive laptops.

Our UK101s and Nascoms may seem primitive in retrospect, but they were complex at the time. Dealing with that complexity was what started many of us on paths that led to technical careers and qualifications.

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:05 am

exartemarte said:


zag said:


Its a shame there isn't a Kids version of linux really with just the programming tools and a web browser installed.


It's a matter of opinion, obviously, but I think a "kids' version" is the last thing they need.


I don't think it's a case of one or the other but giving everyone what they need or want at that time.

By limiting choice, dictating what they will have, one ends up forcing people down a path which they may not wish to go down. We should be opening up paths, helping people along them, not forcing them down them.

"They need this" often seems driven by the belief that we need to create particular people with particular skill sets. People should be free to choose their own destination.

mole125
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:30 am

I think you are solving the fundamentally wrong problem is you limit what is installed.

It doesn't matter how many advanced complex tools are installed. For a novice user it is how well the user interface and documentation is  to allow them to perform simple and/or necessary operations easily without confusing them with unneeded complex operations. For linux this pretty much boils down to having a decent windows manager installed, with a sensible number of clearly named applications on the desktop/dock/launch widgit.

There could be alternative tools which do the same task installed, or more advanced versions, the challenge is to make these findable and usable when you want them but not in your face and confusing when you don't.

One of the worst things IMHO is when you have a very locked down 'easy to use' interface. Most of the times they make it extremely easy to do things the designer thought you wanted to do and extremely hard and confusing (or plain impossible) to do simple tasks that are slightly off the expected beaten path. Generally this means that an 'easy to use' interface is often ends up harder to use than what a standard interface would be.

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markb
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:45 am

zag said:


The OP kinda has a point.

Its a shame there isn't a Kids version of linux really with just the programming tools and a web browser installed.



Do really mean a kids' version of Linux, or a kids' interface to linux? If it's the latter,  then there are things like sugar but it's not designed to encourage programming (the stated version of Rpi).

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:21 pm

zag said:


The OP kinda has a point.

Its a shame there isn't a Kids version of linux really with just the programming tools and a web browser installed.



You might want to do a little reading before making statements like that.  The Foundation is working VERY hard to accomplish that for the "Educational Release" due in the fall.  Instead of bemoaning about what a shame it is, why don't volunteer to help?

KeithSloan
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:35 pm

Well one thing the 80's had was Byte Magazine. I wish it was still going and was due a month themed on Raspberry Pi. There just does not seem to be any good in-depth technical magazines any more.

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Lob0426
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:37 pm

Some of the posters have not really bothered to read the available FAQ"s and wikis. The targeted audience is children. The targeted price is to create availability. Linux is being used to keep it within the price of the target audience. Linux is not the sole OS that is of interest for the Raspberry Pi. Education is the main goal, but not the only goal of the Raspberry Pi. If programming was the only goal then why is the Gertboard showing up on the first page? The goal is to bring an awareness of software and hardware as a part of the learning tool. Can The Raspberry Pi fail? Of course it could. Willit? I doubt it. But it is worth discussing to bring to light how it might fail. Then try to stop it from failing. I have been outspoken in pointing out some of the mistakes, I believe have been made, to the point of being accused of trolling.
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Jim Manley
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:44 pm

KeithSloan said:


Well one thing the 80's had was Byte Magazine. I wish it was still going and was due a month themed on Raspberry Pi. There just does not seem to be any good in-depth technical magazines any more.


Byte lives!  http://www.informationweek.com/byte/

It's not what it once was, but, it does have some usable content.  It was never really big on details like Kilobaud Microcomputing and platform-specific magazines and newsletters, but, there is info out there.  There are a couple of on-line Pi periodicals trying to get organized, but, until developers and hard-core hobbyists get their hands on boards for a significant amount of time, it will be a waiting game.  However, there's not much money to be made trying to sell detailed information once it's been put on the WWW for free, so, don't expect to see the kinds of technical content-intense magazines we grew up on decades ago anytime soon.
The best things in life aren't things ... but, a Pi comes pretty darned close! :D
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:55 pm

heh OP seems to be mounting a campaign agaisnt you : http://massapathy.blogspot.co......ailed.html

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:59 pm

KeithSloan said:


Well one thing the 80's had was Byte Magazine. I wish it was still going and was due a month themed on Raspberry Pi. There just does not seem to be any good in-depth technical magazines any more.


IMO Byte died like others of the time because the "barnstorming" days ended and people started using IBM PCs and Macs as appliances.

However, IMO the spirit of Byte lives on with Circuit Cellar and its European counterpart Elektor.  Plus there's a plethora of great stuff scattered over the Internet, but good luck finding it because if you don't know it exists you won't know how to search for it.

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:31 pm

I went in and posted in rodneyj"s blog. I ended with the fact that if you wish to have freedom of speech that you must allow others that freedom and responsibility.
You cannot ask for respect then tell everybody that disagrees with you not to post in the thread. It just does not work that way.
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rmm200
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:03 pm

Kudos to the Admins for banning him.  With Pis being delivered, more vexatious types will be showing up.

Just wish logon IDs were tied to IP address, to make it harder for such types to get a new ID and post again.

Hope the Admins get something out of it - pretty thankless job - but appreciated.

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scep
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:12 pm

rmm200 said:

Hope the Admins get something out of it - pretty thankless job - but appreciated.
Cheers! 

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:39 pm

Phpbb3 supports ip banning I believe
Steve N – binatone mk4->intellivision->zx81->spectrum->cbm64->cpc6128->520stfm->pc->raspi ?

Chris.Rowland
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:57 pm

Do you all realise how rude almost all of you come across as? It's what makes this forum an unpleasant place to be.

If you post rude messages then YOU are being rude and that is your responsibility.

Saying they deserve it is not a valid excuse (I have a much more graphic description that I've removed).

Please, everybody behave like adults - or maybe like children think adults ought to behave. Would it help if you were to imagine saying what you post to everyone face to face.

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