lewmur
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:20 pm

As I said, the only version of Windows that could possibly run on the R Pi is Win CE.  I don't think anyone would attempt to argue that that is a good idea.  Therefore, ANY discussion Windows in this forum MUST be in support of the OP's original contention the R Pi is a failure from start.  And to go to the home forum of any device and claim it is a failure, is the very definition of trolling and should NOT be allowed.

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nick.mccloud
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:23 pm

I'm becoming concerned about the frequency of whining - is there a filter we can install for that?

andri
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:23 pm

ArborealSeer said:




Stef said:


markb said:


mole125 said:


Really? Windows won"t fit on a sensibly priced SD card.


I"ll just pop in to correct you on that, you can fit an XP image onto a 4 GB card quite easily & Win 7 will happily boot up on an 8 GB card.


Realy? Do you ever install Windows XP / 7 onto SD Card?

IMO Microsoft would not allow you to instal their OS on REMOVABLE DEVICE. When Windows start booting it will reset USB / Card reader.

And the difference is COST.

You can use linux for free.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W.....s_portable


That's Windows 8.

Not version before that.

I know some 'Portable Windows" before (like Portable MS Office), but I don't think that's legal.

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:29 pm

exartemarte said:


Joe Schmoe said:


Which word do you not understand?


I had never heard the word "shill" - I've googled it now and I presume it's American slang. And I've always associated Microsoft with Seattle. I associate Redmond with West Virginia. If Redmond and Seattle are in the same place (or co-located as you would probably say) then please forgive a foreigner's imperfect grasp of American geography.



Redmond, WA is the home of MS and is a city located near Seattle.  Some would probably call it a suburb of Seattle but MS pays its local taxes to Redmond and not Seattle.

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exartemarte
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:31 pm

lewmur said:


exartemarte said:


Joe Schmoe said:


Which word do you not understand?


I had never heard the word "shill" - I've googled it now and I presume it's American slang. And I've always associated Microsoft with Seattle. I associate Redmond with West Virginia. If Redmond and Seattle are in the same place (or co-located as you would probably say) then please forgive a foreigner's imperfect grasp of American geography.


Redmond, WA is the home of MS and is a city located near Seattle.  Some would probably call it a suburb of Seattle but MS pays its local taxes to Redmond and not Seattle.


Thank you. All is now clear.

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:37 pm

Stef said:


markb said:


mole125 said:


Really? Windows won't fit on a sensibly priced SD card.


I'll just pop in to correct you on that, you can fit an XP image onto a 4 GB card quite easily & Win 7 will happily boot up on an 8 GB card.


Realy? Do you ever install Windows XP / 7 onto SD Card?

IMO Microsoft would not allow you to instal their OS on REMOVABLE DEVICE. When Windows start booting it will reset USB / Card reader.

And the difference is COST.

You can use linux for free.


I've installed XP, Win 7, Ubuntu & OSX (don't tell apple!) onto SD cards and booted off them - on a Dell mini PC.

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:44 pm

markb said:


I've installed XP, Win 7, Ubuntu & OSX (don't tell apple!) onto SD cards and booted off them - on a Dell mini PC.



The fact that you've done it doesn't make it legal.  Don't tell MS either.

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Tass
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:40 pm

So.....  to clarify - no one left in this thread thinks the Raspberry Pi has failed.  There's a lot of debate over whether anything could be done with other OSes like Windows, OSX, etc., but whatever the answers to that debate are, the bottom line is that nothing can do it better than the Pi - just equal it at best, and definitely not as cheap.

I predict that anything else said about this will just be repeating the above

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:08 pm

Tass said:


So.....  to clarify - no one left in this thread thinks the Raspberry Pi has failed.  There's a lot of debate over whether anything could be done with other OSes like Windows, OSX, etc., but whatever the answers to that debate are, the bottom line is that nothing can do it better than the Pi - just equal it at best, and definitely not as cheap.

I predict that anything else said about this will just be repeating the above



No doubt that either MS or Apple could come up with their own version of the Pi running their own software.  But to do so would be financial suicide.  Right now MS sell a "license" for far more than the cost of a Pi and, of course, Apple's iPods, which aren't even fully functioning computer cost far more.

In theory, third parties can, and have built small x86 boards, but none as cheap as the Pi and you'd still need to pay MS's license fee to run any Windows version on them.

The real argument made by the Windows proponents is that the Pi will fail because MS has a strangle hold on the educational market that can't be broken.  That remains to be seen. I, for one, disagree because govts around the world are leaning more and more towards OpenSource.  And the educational systems are invariably subject to govt dictates.

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ArborealSeer
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:24 pm

thats not the full argument though, it runs through education, to actual real world business in a lot of cases.

in thereal world almost everything is on windows from what my family and friends use through to what we use at work and have supply our products from bedroom developers to international corporates its almost all windows, and what i used at college, and see my partner use (she"s teaches gcse and a-level which is part of why i know about the reality of the software teachers use). the few who use macbooks mostly have them either because they're graphics designers, or hipsters (plus my mum who loves her new ipad)

businesswise, at work one product line we sell primarily to developers, including embedded and 99% of it is windows based, we have a few customers using embedded ce and even less than that use linux.

there is a huge microsoft eco-system in place, apple have made dents, but they"ve had to integrate, even SMB is a swear word on here.

correct if i"m wrong, but raspberry pi IS NOT a linux (or risc os) crusade its just about getting people programmimg. if kids learn on pi, then want to run their code on windows are the angry linux guys on here going to shout them down? because that"d be really really sad.

without pi"s to take home, thats going to be a reality for some, it could be many – they"ll do something at school on pi and what"s at home will no doubt be either a handme down laptop or PC running windows at the very least.
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:41 pm

ArborealSeer said:


without pi"s to take home, thats going to be a reality for some, it could be many – they"ll do something at school on pi and what"s at home will no doubt be either a handme down laptop or PC running windows at the very least.


Maybe it would be nice to create a Live CD that is some sort of copy of the educational OS used for the Pi. Kids could then take their SD card home and continue with their projects on the computer at home.

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:46 pm

ArborealSeer said:


thats not the full argument though, it runs through education, to actual real world business in a lot of cases.

in thereal world almost everything is on windows from what my family and friends use through to what we use at work and have supply our products from bedroom developers to international corporates its almost all windows, and what i used at college, and see my partner use (she"s teaches gcse and a-level which is part of why i know about the reality of the software teachers use). the few who use macbooks mostly have them either because they"re graphics designers, or hipsters (plus my mum who loves her new ipad)

businesswise, at work one product line we sell primarily to developers, including embedded and 99% of it is windows based, we have a few customers using embedded ce and even less than that use linux.

there is a huge microsoft eco-system in place, apple have made dents, but they"ve had to integrate, even SMB is a swear word on here.

correct if i"m wrong, but raspberry pi IS NOT a linux (or risc os) crusade its just about getting people programmimg. if kids learn on pi, then want to run their code on windows are the angry linux guys on here going to shout them down? because that"d be really really sad.

without pi"s to take home, thats going to be a reality for some, it could be many – they"ll do something at school on pi and what"s at home will no doubt be either a handme down laptop or PC running windows at the very least.



There is also a hugh Android user base.  And guess what OS Andriod has as its base?  And though it's early days yet, there are already people working on an Android port for the Pi.  No, the Pi won't run either Windows or OSX; but it will run Android.  Face it.  MS's strangle hold has been broken.

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:53 pm

ArborealSeer said:

correct if i"m wrong, but raspberry pi IS NOT a linux (or risc os) crusade its just about getting people programmimg. if kids learn on pi, then want to run their code on windows are the angry linux guys on here going to shout them down? because that"d be really really sad.
You're exactly right (IMHO) - it's simply about getting people programming & understanding how computers work whatever the OS.  They've chosen Linux as they feel that's the fastest/cheapest/easiest way to achieve this.  Once these kids have this set of skills they will go on to work with any solution (maybe with a small Linux bias )  The Pi is the tool to give them those skills, not a solution to the neverending OS debate.

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:59 pm

poing said:


Maybe it would be nice to create a Live CD that is some sort of copy of the educational OS used for the Pi. Kids could then take their SD card home and continue with their projects on the computer at home.


Or they could just get their own Pi?   I know £30 is still a lot of money, but it's cheaper than any games console, most games, or anything kids these days spend their money on.  I don't want to start the whole peripherals debate, but if they have an old laptop, etc., as you suggest they can simply VNC into the Pi, booting off the SD card they've brought home from school.

EDIT: Can't ... resist urge... to keep ... replying...

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:02 pm

or just run the python code straight on windows? http://www.python.org/getit/windows/

obviously certain features might not work, but i'm if its that needed someone will take care of ensuring the rpi code can be run in that environment.

its like when i started learning c, i was learning on pc's in dos, but at home i had an amiga until i could afford a pc..
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lewmur
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:03 pm

Tass said:


ArborealSeer said:


correct if i"m wrong, but raspberry pi IS NOT a linux (or risc os) crusade its just about getting people programmimg. if kids learn on pi, then want to run their code on windows are the angry linux guys on here going to shout them down? because that"d be really really sad.


You're exactly right (IMHO) - it's simply about getting people programming & understanding how computers work whatever the OS.  They've chosen Linux as they feel that's the fastest/cheapest/easiest way to achieve this.  Once these kids have this set of skills they will go on to work with any solution (maybe with a small Linux bias )  The Pi is the tool to give them those skills, not a solution to the neverending OS debate.



The R Pi hardware dictated the choice of OS.  The Foundation was able to strike a great deal with Broadcom to furnish the SoC that is the heart of the Pi.  That is an ARM based chip that left them with a choice of Linux or Win CE.  A "no brainer".

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liz
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:04 pm

ArborealSeer said:


correct if i"m wrong, but raspberry pi IS NOT a linux (or risc os) crusade its just about getting people programmimg. if kids learn on pi, then want to run their code on windows are the angry linux guys on here going to shout them down? because that"d be really really sad.


You're absolutely right - we are not platform purists by any means. If anything, we're total, frivolous agnostics. I'm typing this on a Mac; I've got a Windows machine upstairs that I use for gaming; sometimes I use that as a Linux box too, but the vast majority of my screen time has me staring into the black, black heart of a MacBook Pro. Eben has a Windows laptop mandated by his work; a Linux box on his desk at work to go alongside it; but only really uses Linux very occasionally at home. He's planning on buying a Mac too, but right now we can't afford it (so please buy more Raspis so we can get the money we loaned the Foundation back). As of about thirty minutes ago he's playing Journey on the PS3. And, of course, there's a Raspberry Pi running Debian attached to the TV.

All of this basically goes to say that Linux zealotry couldn't have been further from the top of our list when developing this project.
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:08 pm

*had to remove my reply as liz got in first.. * but it basically pointed out that even if they were pointed in the programming direction by a pi just once its a non-failure. i'm sure from the posts on here even just the pi press coverage got some people who wanted to code to get off their butts.. so in reality i'd wager its already given a little shot in the arm.

and.. I trump your souls darkness by posting this from my Win7 equipped SONY viao.. (at my work all the ex-swg addicts hate them more than apple and microsoft combined)

*insert best vincent price thriller laugh*
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:27 pm

I'd argue that the Pi could fail because Linux could be not up to scratch (pun intended). The product has been released now, and people still seem to be running into all kinds of fatal issues, very early in the process of trying to use their Pi.

I know this is for now a "hacker" launch. But things need to start working smoothly quickly now, and good docs need to be available. If things are still at "hacker" level a handful of months from now, the Pi's reputation will start to be established - in a bad way.

Worst case scenario, the Pi geeks fragment into several sub-groups by distro, all perfectly happy with a non-release-grade, badly documented OS that let's them show off their haxxor skillz, but prevents newbies, teachers, and kids from using / enjoying / messing with their Pi.

Then MS (t)rolls in with "which Pi ? the Debian one that can't do video, the Fedora one that can't do hardware, or the Arch one that doesn't include any of the edu packages ? And who is going to provide you with training and support ?

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:42 pm

There was a good post about fragmentation elsewhere, but I guess the answer is – you also forget about openelec and raspbmc too?

IMO.. a stock (edu) and hobbyists 'souped up' collections/editions images with all the cool stuff collated and ones the foundation wouldn't touch with (e..g war driving/network pentration stuff) seem a fairly certain path for this to follow.
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:06 pm

obarthelemy said:


I'd argue that the Pi could fail because Linux could be not up to scratch (pun intended). The product has been released now, and people still seem to be running into all kinds of fatal issues, very early in the process of trying to use their Pi.


As expected.


I know this is for now a "hacker" launch. But things need to start working smoothly quickly now, and good docs need to be available. If things are still at "hacker" level a handful of months from now, the Pi's reputation will start to be established - in a bad way.


Unlikely. Just looking at the troubleshooting section, problems are already being solved. Maybe not the nasty ones yet, but that will come as more and more really experience Linux people get hold of them.


Worst case scenario, the Pi geeks fragment into several sub-groups by distro, all perfectly happy with a non-release-grade, badly documented OS that let's them show off their haxxor skillz, but prevents newbies, teachers, and kids from using / enjoying / messing with their Pi.


Pretty much guaranteed to happen. But you only need one, solid distro and one set of documentation for those newbies and all will be well. And that's what the Foundation is for...as shown by work already being done on docs. And an official distro that combines the best of the rest shouldn't be far behind.


Then MS (t)rolls in with "which Pi ? the Debian one that can't do video, the Fedora one that can't do hardware, or the Arch one that doesn't include any of the edu packages ? And who is going to provide you with training and support ?


Well, can't do much about that, except ensure they don't have any ammunition.
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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:24 pm

liz said:


Eben has a Windows laptop mandated by his work; a Linux box on his desk at work to go alongside it; but only really uses Linux very occasionally at home.


"Windows laptop mandated by work". How I hate that phrase! For a while at my $lastjob I ran Windows in a virtual machine on my own MacbookPro. Eventually I had to give that up because "it was not an approved machine" or some such dreck.


All of this basically goes to say that Linux zealotry couldn't have been further from the top of our list when developing this project.


Good to hear that. The peripherals datasheet was immensely helpful. I hope you will make it possible to use openGL ES & friends with non-linux OSes (and non-GPL code).

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:07 am

Bakul said:


liz said:


Eben has a Windows laptop mandated by his work; a Linux box on his desk at work to go alongside it; but only really uses Linux very occasionally at home.


"Windows laptop mandated by work". How I hate that phrase! For a while at my $lastjob I ran Windows in a virtual machine on my own MacbookPro. Eventually I had to give that up because "it was not an approved machine" or some such dreck.


All of this basically goes to say that Linux zealotry couldn't have been further from the top of our list when developing this project.


Good to hear that. The peripherals datasheet was immensely helpful. I hope you will make it possible to use openGL ES & friends with non-linux OSes (and non-GPL code).



The Foundation has #never# demanded the use of a particular OS.  If you want to use Win CE, then that is your choice.  They have merely #assumed# that the easiest way to get started would be with the Linux distro, Fedora, that the local University was donating time to have ready for the hardware release.  Debian has since become the "distro of choice" for the "early recipients".  But "Linux Zealotry", in regard the Pi, is a total myth.

That isn't to say that there aren't "OpenSource zealots", like myself, that don't see the Pi as another "chink in the armor" to break the effective monopoly that MS has held over the PC market for the last 20 years. I do, and I celebrate the fact.  But I'm not a "Linux zealot".  I'm an "anti-monopoly zealot".

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:21 am

poing said:


ArborealSeer said:


without pi"s to take home, thats going to be a reality for some, it could be many – they"ll do something at school on pi and what"s at home will no doubt be either a handme down laptop or PC running windows at the very least.


Maybe it would be nice to create a Live CD that is some sort of copy of the educational OS used for the Pi. Kids could then take their SD card home and continue with their projects on the computer at home.



The whole point of the Pi is that not every kid has a "computer at home".  Now, for $35, they can have their own "computer at home".

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Re: raspberry pi already failed ?

Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:47 am

Obarthelemy: kind of funny, I got jumped all over by Liz months and months ago when I suggested we would be Beta testing. Are We? Of course she was right in a way for me...... No Pi yet. lol

JamesH: one of the problems is that a whole slew of people jumped into the launch with both eyes closed and their hands over their ears. When the back orders start getting filled there will hopefully be some major progress by mid May or so. Not trolling, just predicting that these people will come out screaming that they expected a finished product. No one told them it was finished, But they will still scream!

Hopefully we will see some progress such as hardware acceleration for smoother, faster browsing by May. Some progress on the ALSA drivers would also help. The RasPi's that are showing up on Ebay hurt somewhat as they would have been better used in other hands. Well all water under the bridge at this point. It looks like dom and Liam Fraser and others are making good headway with XBMC which is one of the main things that the uniformed screamers are likely to want. Media serving/playing seems to be the largest crowd looking at RasPi. Well I get to sit back and watch it unfold until my RasPi (or my Beagle Board) shows up!
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