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Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:03 am
by helpme
I am very pleased with Raspberry Pi. I am even more pleasantly surprised that RPi has passed FCC and CE certifications. Is it necessary to have a development board to pass FCC/CE? Since it has already passed FCC/CE, can someone integrate this board inside a product for sale? Any restrictions?

Thank you.

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:15 am
by W. H. Heydt
Because about 1.5 *million* of them have been sold.

Usually uncertified "development" devices are sold in relatively small numbers for the use of...developers. The developers will use the uncertified device to come up with a (probably) commercial device that will be certified.

The Pi is being used by ordinary people in uncontrolled conditions. The certification is to ensure that it won't interfere with other devices, which would violate the law.

I could tell you a story about a ham operator who didn't shield his equipment after a polite suggestion that he do so...and that failure resulted in a recoding of his call letters on top of a commercial broadcast being sent the FCC, and *that* resulted in some polite but VERY firm FCC agents showing up on his doorstep who told him in no uncertain terms to shut down until his equipment could be proven to be properly shielded.

Personally, I don't want either anything in my house being subject to interference from a Pi, let alone my neighbors complaining about interference coming from any of my equipment. I'm very glad that the emissions tests were performed and the Pi passed.

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:18 am
by Hove
FCC is a US mandatory requirement for any electronics devices sold in the US that is meets the required standards for radio interference

CE is the EU equivalent, but potentially covers much more since the CE sign indicates the device passes all applicable directives.

With these the RPi could not have been sold.

I beleive copyright / licensing (GPL) is the main hurdle if the RPi is to be integrated into another product for commercial purposes.

In addition, that device would also need to then pass FCC / CE again.

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:21 am
by helpme
Hove wrote: I beleive copyright / licensing (GPL) is the main hurdle if the RPi is to be integrated into another product for commercial purposes.
I believe this should not be a problem if one is writing python application scripts on RPi. GPL applies for the operating system but not on the apps written on the OS.

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:24 am
by gordon77
I would say yes the RPI needs CE but whether a product using it does is a bit vague, there is clause about 'important changes' and being a new product

https://www.gov.uk/ce-marking
http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/policies ... lic_en.pdf

But I'm not an expert on the topic

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:41 am
by Heater
helpme,

The problem with the GPL and Pi based products is this:

1) You ship a product to me that includes a Pi and Raspian and your application.
2) Most of that Raspian is GPLed.
3) Therefore under the terms of the GPL you have to be able to provide me, if I ask, with all the source code needed to build that Raspian.

You see, you will have shipped binaries of GPLed code to me and you need to abide by the license they are under.

Are you prepared to do that?

This nothing to do with your application which you can licence how you like.

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:46 am
by MrBunsy
Heater wrote:helpme,

The problem with the GPL and Pi based products is this:

1) You ship a product to me that includes a Pi and Raspian and your application.
2) Most of that Raspian is GPLed.
3) Therefore under the terms of the GPL you have to be able to provide me, if I ask, with all the source code needed to build that Raspian.

You see, you will have shipped binaries of GPLed code to me and you need to abide by the license they are under.

Are you prepared to do that?

This nothing to do with your application which you can licence how you like.
What's to stop you providing links to raspbian/debian, which will satisfy almost everyone? If anyone is still really insistent *you* send them the code, you could just post them a DVD, although I don't know if that's actually required.

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:53 am
by Heater
I'm not sure if just providing links to some site that is not yours satisfies the requirements of the GPL.

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:54 pm
by MrBunsy
Indeed, but it satisfies it for practical purposes, and if anyone really demands that you personally provide them with the sources then why can't you just post a DVD then?

edit:

I had a little nosey around - for a noncommercial project you can just link to where you got the source from. Otherwise you need to either provide it with the product or provide a written offer to provide
3b of the GPLv3 wrote:for a charge no more than your
cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete
machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code
So for the least faff you could just stick a CD/DVD in with the box. But I don't see why you couldn't provide links to debian to satisfy people who actually want the code and provide a written offer to post a DVD to satisfy the letter of the GPL.

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:35 pm
by Heater
Perhaps, maybe, that is all that is required. My question was are you prepared to do that?. If so all is good.
You will have to be sure that DVD is up to date with whatever versions you use in your product.

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:47 pm
by jackokring
Technically a recursive wget is the most efficient machine readable copy. It does not specify which machine must be able to read it. :D

EDIT: Instead of a DVD to send the software source. As for FCC and CE, it's mainly lack of radio noise when next to a radio, and continuing to work in the locality of a tunable tesla coil. This is roughly how the tests are done.

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:24 pm
by Heater
Sorry. What has wget got to do with anything here. Please elaborate.

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:35 pm
by unclejed613
generally any device that might emit radiation anywhere from 9khz to 300Ghz needs to be certified by the FCC. audio equipment (i.e. analog amplifiers in the audio range)normally doesn't have to be certified, because speaker wires have the conductors close enough together, that they don't emit. a class D amplifier has to be certified, however, because it's operation is usually in the 50khz-2Mhz region, and rich in harmonics, and could radiate some of this energy from the speaker wires.. the Pi has a 700Mhz clock, and some of the harmonics of that 700Mhz square wave can be radiated easily from circuit board traces less than an inch in length.

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:44 am
by Lob0426
Ok time to be a smart Aleck;

How else would CE and the FCC make money?

UL is probably a better tester of any product than either of those are!

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:36 am
by jamesh
Worth noting, although the Pi has FCC/CE, if you use it in another product*, THAT product will need to get its own FCC/CE.

* Not a development device, but one sold to the general populace. The Raspi is not a development device as such, althgouh it can be used like that, which is why it need CE/FCC. As does the camera board, and, oddly, things like the Gertboard.

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:11 pm
by williegeorge
I would like to post what I think is the same question very specifically in hopes of a similarly specific response. If no one here is sure of the correct answer, hopefully someone will at least be able to point me in the right direction.

I am working on developing a commercial product that will consist of a RPi in a plastic box. All of the value-add on my part will be in the software. I check with the developers of the software I'm using about licensing issues once I figure this part out. Would my device need separate FCC/CE since I am not modifying the physical RPi at all?

In a related note, would I have to admit to my customers that it is a RPi inside the mystery box?

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:36 pm
by jamesh
williegeorge wrote:I would like to post what I think is the same question very specifically in hopes of a similarly specific response. If no one here is sure of the correct answer, hopefully someone will at least be able to point me in the right direction.

I am working on developing a commercial product that will consist of a RPi in a plastic box. All of the value-add on my part will be in the software. I check with the developers of the software I'm using about licensing issues once I figure this part out. Would my device need separate FCC/CE since I am not modifying the physical RPi at all?

In a related note, would I have to admit to my customers that it is a RPi inside the mystery box?
I think you would need your own FCC/CE since the other components you use may radiate. Although it may depend on quantity.

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:32 pm
by Jim Manley
Lob0426 wrote:Ok time to be a smart Aleck;
How else would CE and the FCC make money?
UL is probably a better tester of any product than either of those are!
The government agencies don't perform certification testing, independent labs do which are certified by the agencies, ironically often with the assistance of yet-more third-party contractors, generally known as independent verification and validation (IV&V) entities. Yes, there are auditors who check the IV&V folks as well as the others ... the government contracting gravy train never ends :roll:

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 4:08 pm
by Killertechno
So, if I correctly understood, Raspberry is
a) stand alone device: plug (power supply, keyboard, mouse, monitor) and play
b) sold to millions of people

so it requires CE/FCC mark.

Now my doubt: I make a simple shield (let's suppose microcontroller + temperature sensor), I use MCU for data conditioning and as interface for sensor.
I sell shield to 100 friends.
I need FCC/CE mark if sold as "complete and/or finished" product (mounted on Raspberry), but if I sold it in kit, to be mounted on Raspberry, do I still need FCC/CE mark?
Shield is not complete/finished device (without Raspberry it's unusefull), so do I really need marks?
Or could I sell it with this warning:
"shield with no FCC/CE approval, use it at your own risk"?

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 7:45 pm
by jamesh
If you are making a few and selling to friends, I don't think the powers that be are going to be bothered, unless you make something that radiates so much EM that it affects other devices in the vicinity.

BUT, I am not a lawyer.

Re: Why does RPi need to pass FCC and CE?

Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 12:55 am
by plugwash
helpme wrote:I am very pleased with Raspberry Pi. I am even more pleasantly surprised that RPi has passed FCC and CE certifications. Is it necessary to have a development board to pass FCC/CE?
AIUI true development boards are not considered finished products and therefore not subject to FCC and CE (IANAL this is not legal advice)

The problem with the Pi was that given the massive number of orders, the way it was marketed and the demographics of the customer base the distributors did not think they could defend calling it "not a finished product" and decided that the only legally safe option was to get it certified.