Joe Schmoe
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:20 pm

Yup - like I said. It doesn't exist now. But when it does, it will be a game changer.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:39 am

What I really really really, would like to see in the next gen raspberry pi, is for the microusb power socket to also double as a "usb-to-serial" converter.

This would make it really handy to access serial console, by hooking it to the laptop (if you want to use main power still, then you can make a splitter cable. The FTDI chips (especially x-series), are getting cheaper. You also save school from having to purchase a serial to usb cable, which would cut down the cost of computer labs on programming the rpi2

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mahjongg
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:31 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote:Yup - like I said. It doesn't exist now. But when it does, it will be a game changer.
I could tell a lot about why this hasn't happened yet, and probably will not happen either.
Its down to the fact that x86 has the "wrong" architecture for the job!
There is a reason ARM has been so successful in the low power portable market, ever since it was chosen by Apple for its Newton PDA platform.
Its not a thing that can be solved by throwing money and engineering at it either.

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:57 am

mahjongg wrote:
Joe Schmoe wrote:Yup - like I said. It doesn't exist now. But when it does, it will be a game changer.
I could tell a lot about why this hasn't happened yet, and probably will not happen either.
Its down to the fact that x86 has the "wrong" architecture for the job!
There is a reason ARM has been so successful in the low power portable market, ever since it was chosen by Apple for its Newton PDA platform.
Its not a thing that can be solved by throwing money and engineering at it either.
I could have swore that the Newton was power'd by a MIPS processor, but after double checking you are correct it was powered by an early ARM processor.

If we are going to have wet dreams about CISC processors mine would be that a newer 68000 series would come out and be like multi GHZ with quad core and the entire board would cost under $100. As for x86, it is one band-aid after another and once the die-shrinks end, like when they reach the point where a trace is 1 atom wide and they can't shrink further then we will see who has the best tech out there. I love my core i5 and i7 systems but in the winter you can definatly warm your hands by the exaust fan.

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:28 pm

I warm my feet by resting my legs on top of the system unit of my gaming PC. Blissful.
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:52 pm

If the Model A saves 200mA of power (out of approx 350mA for Model B) by having no ethernet chip could the Model B have a link on the PCB where we could disconnect the chip if no ethernet is required ?

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:10 pm

gordon77 wrote:If the Model A saves 200mA of power (out of approx 350mA for Model B) by having no ethernet chip could the Model B have a link on the PCB where we could disconnect the chip if no ethernet is required ?
On the face of it, no.
There's two problems, signal and power

Signal: On model B, the USB out of the SoC is routed directly to the LAN9512, and the outputs from that go to the connector. One pair goes directly to the top socket, the other via a couple of 0Ω links to the bottom socket
On model A, the SoC output is routed through a different pair of 0Ω links to the bottom socket
So your switch will have to select which routing the SoC output will take. Not only that, though: the LAN9512 is still sitting across the USB, and may upset the impedance of the line.

Power: Maybe you could do it. But there's no obvious point in the 3v3 routing to put your switch - apart from lifting the chip legs.
But also, on Rev 1 boards, there's the problem of the 1v8 link. that rail will still be supplied by the SoC, and will be attempting to drive the LAN9512.

A better route is to take a model A and use a hub/Lan dongle when needed

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:19 pm

gordon77 wrote:If the Model A saves 200mA of power (out of approx 350mA for Model B) by having no ethernet chip could the Model B have a link on the PCB where we could disconnect the chip if no ethernet is required ?
Not unless its also have no objection to loose all USB connectivity, as the same chip is also the USB hub to get from one port to three (the ethernet also uses an internal USB port). And even then it won't be as easy as you might think.

Also, x86 based SoC's have been around for years, mainly in use to replace complete PC's in embedded industrial applications, where they had to run existing x86 software. One primary player is Vortex, who have been at it ever since they took over the processor division of SiS (remember them?, they make TV's now I think).
At one time I looked at the validity of using one to base a product on, but quickly decided against them, and went with an ARM based SoC from Cirrus.
As said, these systems are very much underpowered and overheated compared to ARM systems.
For vortex see http://www.vortex86dx.com/. Their Wikipedia page is more like an advertisement which says enough in itself.

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:30 pm

The Intel D525MW is what you're after, Probably not a lot more expensive than a Pi considering it has a VGA output and will work from any old desktop PSU you have lying around. It will run Windows although it goes a hell of a lot better with Linux, its too performance compromised to run a clock cycle hog like Windows convincingly although its several times more powerful than a Pi and uses a lot more power. (I have mine running a full PC with 3.5" HDD, DVD rewriter and enough juice to run a couple of External HDDs from a 60W PSU.). Its been around a lot longer than the Pi.
It runs nice with Ubuntu 12.04.

X86 SOCs suck. The Pi outclasses the one I'm unfortunate enough to own.
Don't judge Linux by the Pi.......
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:48 pm

SBC with 32GB RAM: https://hardkernel.com

FAQ : https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com

Unanswered: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/search.php?search_id=unanswered

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:49 pm

On minor point kind of leapt out at me on that page...the SoC package is 27x27mm...nearly double the area of the BCM2835....

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:07 pm

Hi RaspiCommunity,

my biggest wishes are:
- to boot up an OS without an SD card
- USB3.

I also thought about:
- eSata would be an idea, but i think it will raise power consumption and price too much.
- It would also be nice to go to the Cortex A8/A9/A15 and create new models (C and D) for those. But i dont know anything about prices and it could be that those processors, especially the A15, are much too expensive.
- add a socket for the memory

regards
marc

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:15 pm

marmal wrote:Hi RaspiCommunity,

my biggest wishes are:
- to boot up an OS without an SD card
- USB3.

I also thought about:
- eSata would be an idea, but i think it will raise power consumption and price too much.
- It would also be nice to go to the Cortex A8/A9/A15 and create new models (C and D) for those. But i dont know anything about prices and it could be that those processors, especially the A15, are much too expensive.
- add a socket for the memory

regards
marc
Totally agree. And throw in an x86 processor as well.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:19 pm

pluggy wrote:The Intel D525MW is what you're after, Probably not a lot more expensive than a Pi considering it has a VGA output and will work from any old desktop PSU you have lying around. It will run Windows although it goes a hell of a lot better with Linux...
Leaving aside the obvious hyperbole in your post (I don't have time to point-by-point it)...

My question is: If it doesn't run Windows well (and by Windows, I assume we're talking current [i.e., "8"] version(s)), then what is the board for? Why would Intel put it on the market?

I can't imagine that "Runs Linux well" is in their promo material...
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:42 pm

marmal wrote:Hi RaspiCommunity,

my biggest wishes are:
- to boot up an OS without an SD card
I trust that you do know that there is no BIOS on the Pi board? Given that...where do you expect to get the beginning bootstrap information *from*? The BCM2835 just barely knows enough to find and read an SD card, and only if it's got a FAT partition. Not quite as bad as IPL on a S/360, but pretty close.
- USB3.
I believe this would require changes to the BCM2835. Do you know of any cell phone sort of processor that supports USB3?
I also thought about:
- eSata would be an idea, but i think it will raise power consumption and price too much.
Hard to say. There is a board out there (the cubieboard) that has a standard SATA connector and a power connector to go with it. I presume that it's just a 5v pass through. Since that board is rated to run off a 1A supply, the SATA power can't be all that high.
- It would also be nice to go to the Cortex A8/A9/A15 and create new models (C and D) for those. But i dont know anything about prices and it could be that those processors, especially the A15, are much too expensive.
That would require a complete board redesign and recertification...neither a cheap nor fast process. One of the salient characteristics of the BCM2835 is that it *is* a fairly old design...the startup costs have already been amortized and it can sold for manufacturing cost plus profit margin only. The same is not true of newer chip designs. (Though I agree that I'd love to see a Pi with a more capable chip...but I don't expect to in the foreseeable future, and there is no actual NEED for the Pi to get such a revision.)
- add a socket for the memory
Look at a Pi and tell me where you'd *put* it. Then think about the internal board work it would take to connect to an "off chip" memory connector.

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:06 pm

Any change like those describes above would require a completely new device. And I mean completely new. A redesign from the ground up, with new SoC, new peripherals chips, new software. Quite a bit of cash. TBH, someone should do it, but it won't be the Foundation in the near future. Eben's thinks there won't be any major refresh to the product line until 2014 at the earliest (see recent interview), and he expects the current design to still be in production until 2020!

And I have no idea where you could put a memory socket!
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:14 am

W. H. Heydt wrote: (Though I agree that I'd love to see a Pi with a more capable chip...but I don't expect to in the foreseeable future, and there is no actual NEED for the Pi to get such a revision.)
ok, i absoloutly agree. my pi works fine and can do everything i want.

i was just dreaming a little like some others in this thread. (remind those ponies?) and the pi team did a great job.

regards

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:28 pm

USB 3.0 would be nice from a power standpoint. No ARM based SOCs have enough raw processing power to move raw data from a 3.0 device. I have a Kirkwood running at 1.2ghz, it has a USB 3.0 port that is connected to the SOC through its native PCIe interface. Connected to that Kirkwood the maximum MBps (that's bytes not bits) that I have ever seen is 35MBps. If I take that same drive over to one of my two desktops it ranges from 125 to 133 MBps.

Also Anandtech has tested some a15 based SOCs and found they still lack the ability to properly utilize a USB 3.0 port.

There will never be a useful x86 based SOC cheep enough for a $35 computer. I would put money on it. Geode is too weak, and intel will never lower anything to a level that will allow it in an $35 computer.

While we are on hypothetical wants. I would just choose a pin compatible SOC with another core and or higher clock speed. While the current model is still selling like hot cakes I don't forsee anything being announced.

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:04 pm

Also Anandtech has tested some a15 based SOCs and found they still lack the ability to properly utilize a USB 3.0 port.
Do you have a link for that?

If your old kirkwood can push most of the real world bandwidth of USB2 then i'd expect a modern a15 based chip to be able to achieve bandwidths greater than what USB2 can achieve (but probablly not max out USB3).

The only thing I found on anandtech that was even vaugely relavent was the chromebook test and afaict they did not test the USB3 port in isolation, only a copy to the internal NAND (which I suspect is not especially fast).

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:49 pm

Jessie wrote: While we are on hypothetical wants. I would just choose a pin compatible SOC with another core and or higher clock speed. While the current model is still selling like hot cakes I don't forsee anything being announced.
That strikes me as pretty hypothetical. *IS* there another SoC that is pin compatible?

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:37 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Jessie wrote: While we are on hypothetical wants. I would just choose a pin compatible SOC with another core and or higher clock speed. While the current model is still selling like hot cakes I don't forsee anything being announced.
That strikes me as pretty hypothetical. *IS* there another SoC that is pin compatible?
Nope. And never likely to be one.
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:38 pm

jamesh wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Jessie wrote: While we are on hypothetical wants. I would just choose a pin compatible SOC with another core and or higher clock speed. While the current model is still selling like hot cakes I don't forsee anything being announced.
That strikes me as pretty hypothetical. *IS* there another SoC that is pin compatible?
Nope. And never likely to be one.
That's what I was getting at, and why I have maintained that changes in fabrication over time are what will--if anything does--bring a faster processor to the Pi.

Of course, Broadcom could (in theory) make a much more capable part with the same pin out...but I can't think of an incentive for them to do so. The Pi doesn't have the volume to be that sort of incentive.

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:36 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
jamesh wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:
That strikes me as pretty hypothetical. *IS* there another SoC that is pin compatible?
Nope. And never likely to be one.
That's what I was getting at, and why I have maintained that changes in fabrication over time are what will--if anything does--bring a faster processor to the Pi.

Of course, Broadcom could (in theory) make a much more capable part with the same pin out...but I can't think of an incentive for them to do so. The Pi doesn't have the volume to be that sort of incentive.
Exactly. Broadcom do indeed make mode powerful SoC's with different BGA's. There is no point in pin compatibility when every mobile phone design is done from scratch.
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