tntexplosivesltd
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:18 pm

chef said:


Why not put a MICRO-SD slot on the board and more GIO pins



This was talked about in the earlier stages, just after the alphas were made. A microSD card is too fragile, which is why a more robust SD card slot was chosen.

jamesh
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:23 pm

Gu3 said:


It's interesting that a number of the "wishes" put on here seem to be very good suggestions for improvements to future versions, yet many poster seem to immediately dismiss the suggestions as not needed (e.g. the >256MB requests).

Rather than dismiss these out of hand, could they not be considered "feature requests" for an enthusiast version of the board?  Why not take what the team has learned from this version of the hardware, and look at higher performance/greater capability SOCs. Leverage your experience to produce a performance version (with a significant markup) and sell these to provide capital for your Charity/Educational/Low Cost model?

You may even get trickle down technology for future Rapberry pi low cost models.

I dunno, it just seems to me that rather than shutting down the requests with "not possible", "not on this SOC", etc, it would be preferable to log them, and consider them for an alternative PCB that doesn't have to meet your requirements for the absolute lowest cost solution.  I realize such an approach runs the risk of diverting your attention from your bigger goals, but I think if you kept it in control and were careful about it, such an approach could yield a lot of benefits to the greater project.

Just my .02 cents/pence.

And for on-topic, I wish for 60C operation and a nice aluminum case.


Don't worry. All sensible suggestions are taken on board, its just that some of the sensible ones are still impossible at this stage - for example >256MB ram isn't available in the PoP package format needed at an acceptable price. Faster SoC? Possible but too expensive etc. And there isn't the time or manpower available to do anything at the moment that isn't to do with the current board.
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tntexplosivesltd
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:27 pm

Gu3 said:


It's interesting that a number of the "wishes" put on here seem to be very good suggestions for improvements to future versions, yet many poster seem to immediately dismiss the suggestions as not needed (e.g. the >256MB requests).

...

Just my .02 cents/pence.

And for on-topic, I wish for 60C operation and a nice aluminum case.



There is nothing anywhere to suggest these aren't being looked at or logged somewhere to be addressed later. Mainly it's the community that are dismissing these suggestions, as the community isn't planning ahead, and these suggestions aren't relevant to the current version we are so eagerly waiting on. I'm sure the future has been considered by the founders, otherwise the project is doomed to fail.

P.S. 0.02 cents != 2 cents.

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:37 pm

To be honest most of the suggestions are pretty obvious (Memory, faster SoC, Wifi, Bluetooth, 3G, VGA just off the top of my head)- if people out there of thought of them its almost guaranteed that people here have also thought of them! This device has been in gestation for quite a while...
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piglet
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:42 pm

VGA should be top of the list imo. More people would benefit if it had vga than any other single change.

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:48 pm

piglet said:


VGA should be top of the list imo. More people would benefit if it had vga than any other single change.


Agreed, but very expensive to implement, and no mobile SoC on the market supports it (I don't think).
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:27 pm

tntexplosivesltd said:

There is nothing anywhere to suggest these aren't being looked at or logged somewhere to be addressed later. Mainly it's the community that are dismissing these suggestions, as the community isn't planning ahead, and these suggestions aren't relevant to the current version we are so eagerly waiting on. I'm sure the future has been considered by the founders, otherwise the project is doomed to fail.

P.S. 0.02 cents != 2 cents.



Fair enough!  And...you are quite correct, that should have been 2 cents/pence.  <sigh>.  Mind thought one thing, fingers typed another...


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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:31 pm

JamesH said:


Don't worry. All sensible suggestions are taken on board, its just that some of the sensible ones are still impossible at this stage - for example >256MB ram isn't available in the PoP package format needed at an acceptable price. Faster SoC? Possible but too expensive etc. And there isn't the time or manpower available to do anything at the moment that isn't to do with the current board.


Now that makes sense to me.  Thanks for the response!  I look forward to seeing how this project proceeds, and how Raspberry Pi changes over time.

mogui
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:41 pm


RobinJ said:

The Raspberry Pi is meant for people who want to use it to learn how to program. Not to play games and stuff



I started learning computer hardware and programming in the days when the only way to get your own PC was to build it from a kit.  I learned to program by typing in, and correcting, small programs from magazines.  Most of those were games in BASIC.

The most highly motivated and effective learning comes from the curiosity drive.  Some call it play.  For the target audience for the PI, I would recommend the availability of lots of game programs at every level of complexity that could be copied and modified.

The Pi exemplifies the kind of learning environment that really works.  I started an engineering career by playing with circuits and programs.

foo
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:15 pm

To my knowledge, nobody has ever built an inexpensive board for public sale with just CPU(+GPGPU), RAM, and networking, with netboot functionality.  I know that'd not be the most general market of products, but I'd certainly love it.

A cheap compute node, vs the current cheap all-in-one computer.

luke404
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:34 pm

foo said:


with netboot functionality


I was thinking about that too, but seems like the boot process of the RasPi is rather complex and more-or-less unmodifiable. You can certainly build some "loader" that gets booted by the RasPi but while linux kernels do have kexec these times, you would still need to load the gfx binary blob and the net loader itself from local storage. That said, I decided I'd just netmount the root filesystem (booting the kernel off a local SD card) rather than do a full netboot (like PXE in x86 world or similar things).

Of all the things I read, a second USB port and onboard WiFi would be the most useful things (imho) for the intended RasPi user. I'd bet most of them will end up hooking the RasPi to some HDMI monitor/tvset with an available USB port that could be used to power the RasPi itself. While USB (both wired and wireless) keyboards and mice are really common and accepted, ethernet cables are slowly disappearing and most people want to go WiFi. The best RasPi setup I can imagine is the RasPi on the back of the TV with a cordless usb keyboard...

For us grown-up non-child-programmers, I'd like mostly a second USB port (again ) and working I2C or SPI implementation (so I won't have to write bit banging routines but just use linux managed interfaces).

For DYI'ers that don't like to code but like to build cases and stuff like that, a ready to boot XBMC image would be great

I honestly can't see any use for more ram, VGA is unsupported by mobile SoC and is useless and dead anyway, SATA I'd guess is equally out of question since the SoC doesn't have that interface onboard. SD cards are so cheap, fast and good for these kind of applications, how could you need other storage interfaces???

HansH
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:24 pm

new generation board:

- remove all the leds, or only leave a power led on it

- mounting holes

- align usb socket edge with ethernet socket (easier for case)

- PoE would be nice... saves on adapters.

fasterklander
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:18 pm

Custom user board:

-Select CPU from ARM11, to ARM-A9 or ARM-15

-Select amount or RAM (256MB, 512MB...)

-Others options are OK for me ^^

I'm waiting to test this small PC because I like this kind of gadgets

I'm looking for a small PC like ARM, because I want to built a farm for crunching with BOINC if it is possible.

I hope the next Raspberry is a Cortex A9

Regards!

jamesh
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:38 pm

fasterklander said:


Custom user board:

-Select CPU from ARM11, to ARM-A9 or ARM-15

-Select amount or RAM (256MB, 512MB...)

-Others options are OK for me ^^

I'm waiting to test this small PC because I like this kind of gadgets

I'm looking for a small PC like ARM, because I want to built a farm for crunching with BOINC if it is possible.

I hope the next Raspberry is a Cortex A9

Regards!


Problem is that all the chips have different BGA's so you need a different board for each chip - not so easy to pick and choose then!
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:47 pm

i think the only thing i would add in a potential mark 2, would be a second SD card slot, so you could have removable media, with the USB ports still dedicated to human interface devices. plus it allows for Raspi recovery using another Raspi which i know was discussed elsewhere through some direct interface such as ethernet or USB. but surely it would be simpler driver/software wise to simple dump a second slot on a board. Also could simplify partitioning? just a thought.

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:03 pm

It woukd be handy if you could get a stacked twin SD slot similar to the USB, nice idea. Do they exist though?

Edit to add: I have seen a side by side twin slot in a camera, but not stacked or piggy back, however you want to call it.

Generalkidd
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:48 pm

Not sure if this has been brought up before, but I think that it'd be great if the next generation Rasberry Pi would include the new Intel Atom (Medfield) SoC. From what I've read about it, it seems its power consumption levels are close to your average ARM chips but its performance is much better than a Tegra 2. In fact, it does a good job with Adobe Flash as well. Not to mention that the x86 Intel Atom will be fully compatible with Windows. I remember the price of the lowest tier of Intel Atoms will be around $30-40.

omgcatalin
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Windows in coming on ARM in autumn. So ARM is the right call for the moment and for the future.

Generalkidd
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:54 pm

omgcatalin said:


Windows in coming on ARM in autumn. So ARM is the right call for the moment and for the future.



But the problem is, the majority of the Windows software library won't be compatible with ARM CPU's. Therefore, legacy applications will require an x86 CPU or an emulator. But I doubt most ARM chips will be able to smoothly emulate an x86 CPU.

If Intel can match or even beat the lower power benefits of ARM, then there's really no need for ARM CPU's anymore as x86 currently has better performance than ARM in my opinion and currently supports more software unless you're trying to develop for mobile platforms.

Just one more question though, whatever version of Linux we can run on Rasberry Pi, is there an ARM version of Adobe Flash that will run on that version of Linux?

RobotGuy
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:55 pm

What I'd be interested in is an embeddable version of the Raspberry Pi.

I'm sort of thinking longer with all the IO ports (except the DSI/CSI/SD Card) nicely aligned on one side, but not to have them soldered to the board by default (except perhaps the HDMI which is the only non-through hole one I think). The ports could then be added as required and easily accessible when placed in a box with other hardware.

You could even have 2 positions for the USB ports, one to go on the outside when boxed along with the rest, one to go inside If you swapped the top / bottom ports over in each one, I think you could even have 1 port outside and 1 inside just by soldering on the correct connectors.

Swap the LDO regulators back to the switching regulators that I think were on the alpha boards and beaf them up a little to power external hardware with a pin header and see if there is a bit more GPIO that could be brought out when there is more space to route with.

Be nice to be able to bung a Pi in a box with just the ports you needed visible and any extra hardware neatly tucked away.

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:36 pm

Generalkidd said:


Not sure if this has been brought up before, but I think that it'd be great if the next generation Rasberry Pi would include the new Intel Atom (Medfield) SoC. From what I've read about it, it seems its power consumption levels are close to your average ARM chips but its performance is much better than a Tegra 2. In fact, it does a good job with Adobe Flash as well. Not to mention that the x86 Intel Atom will be fully compatible with Windows. I remember the price of the lowest tier of Intel Atoms will be around $30-40.


If Intel get anywhere near the Raspi SoC power consumption for similar performance, I'll eat my hat. The x86 architecture is very difficult to reduce power on, as shown by how many times Intel have tried an failed. Note that the GPU on the Raspi is already MUCH better than the Tegra 2, its just the Arm which is a bit slower.

If that prices is for the chip only, a board likw the Raspi with it on would be in the $50-$60 area. Then you have to pay for the OS.....
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Generalkidd
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:48 pm

JamesH said:


Generalkidd said:


Not sure if this has been brought up before, but I think that it'd be great if the next generation Rasberry Pi would include the new Intel Atom (Medfield) SoC. From what I've read about it, it seems its power consumption levels are close to your average ARM chips but its performance is much better than a Tegra 2. In fact, it does a good job with Adobe Flash as well. Not to mention that the x86 Intel Atom will be fully compatible with Windows. I remember the price of the lowest tier of Intel Atoms will be around $30-40.


If Intel get anywhere near the Raspi SoC power consumption for similar performance, I'll eat my hat. The x86 architecture is very difficult to reduce power on, as shown by how many times Intel have tried an failed. Note that the GPU on the Raspi is already MUCH better than the Tegra 2, its just the Arm which is a bit slower.

If that prices is for the chip only, a board likw the Raspi with it on would be in the $50-$60 area. Then you have to pay for the OS.....



Well, you wouldn't necessarily have to use Windows. You can always use the standard x86 versions of Linux Distros such as Ubuntu. The x86 version of Ubuntu is much more widely used and supported at the moment and is capable of running x86 windows applications as well as all your standard Linux applications. Also, I'm not sure if it's true of the Intel SoC, but I know the newer chips from the Intel Atom line also support x86-64 meaning we'll also have the benefits of 64-bit computing.

Currently, power consumption of Intel's upcoming Medfield chip will be pretty close to ARM chips. The Medfield line of Intel Atom chips are specifically meant for smartphones and tablets. Google has already partnered with Intel to develop x86 versions of Android for these new chips. Clearly that must mean the new chips are competitive with ARM chips in terms of power consumption. Plus, the GPU on Medfield chips will support DirectX 10 as well as the usual 1080p video decode and encode. I doubt we'll ever be able to play Crysis, but the Intel Atom SoC will be pretty decent for a lot of games. We'll have to wait till next week's CES to find out more about Intel's SoC.

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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:50 pm

And we'll certainly be looking at it, but I'll be surprised if it outperforms what we have already on multimedia; and I will eat this laptop if it comes in at a better price. Without sauce.
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gruetzkopf
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:02 pm

I'd definitly like USB client support on the charger port!

Generalkidd
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Re: Wishes for 2nd gen Raspberry Pi

Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:12 pm

liz said:


And we'll certainly be looking at it, but I'll be surprised if it outperforms what we have already on multimedia; and I will eat this laptop if it comes in at a better price. Without sauce.



Lol I'd actually be a bit surprised as well if the price was lower than the current ARM chips. How much does a single ARM CPU cost anyways? I'd assume it's the most expensive part of the whole package. Current generation Intel Atoms used in netbooks cost about $42 for the 1.6 Ghz version. I'd imagine the Medfield SoC to be pretty close to current price points.

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