AlexPT
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Re: Wiki - Information

Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:33 pm

We have one Wiki already: http://elinux.org/RaspberryPiBoard

But just after some days, already start to see mini-guides, configs, etc.. all over the internet.

Think we need to concentrate all the things in one place, and it need to be done now. Or will be the chaos to look for good/working information.

So there must be some one to put it all the on our Wiki, so people can find what they look.

rmwebs
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Re: Wiki - Information

Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:18 pm

? l ? x said:


We have one Wiki already: http://elinux.org/RaspberryPiBoard

But just after some days, already start to see mini-guides, configs, etc.. all over the internet.

Think we need to concentrate all the things in one place, and it need to be done now. Or will be the chaos to look for good/working information.

So there must be some one to put it all the on our Wiki, so people can find what they look.


The problem is (and no offence to the foundation or elinux here who are doing a great job) that nobody is managing anything, elinux should not be hosting guides, RaspberryPi.org should. We should have a wiki here, not somewhere else.

IMO when the forum software move eventually happens the site needs to move off Wordpress and onto a propper CMS, allowing better content. Take a look at HowToForge - its a fantasticly well laid out Linux guide site, something along those lines would be great.

As it stands, documentation wise we're going nowhere fast. If the wiki was a dedicated RPi wiki, hosted here you can bet it'd be a lot more use and a lot more active. Having such little control over the wiki doesn't help matters at all.

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Re: Wiki - Information

Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:40 pm

There is in fact quite a bit of work being done in the background for the educational side of things, which will, in all likelihood, cover most of the content required. It's just not ready yet.
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stevepdp
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Re: Wiki - Information

Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:56 pm

? l ? x said:


Think we need to concentrate all the things in one place, and it need to be done now. Or will be the chaos to look for good/working information.


Fortunately, the eLinux wiki is licensed in such a way that it allows anybody to lift content off it if need be.

Personally, I think it's fine to have information spread about provided everybody is aware of the primary sources for info. RaspberryPi.org linking to eLinux is a step in the right direction for example.

I've thought about the problem in the context of a Raspberry Pi development group I'm working on. We're likely to have a group focused wiki and repo (with a similar licensing structure as eLinux) but the point is that anything we create can be lifted off and shared in the same way.

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Re: Wiki - Information

Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:59 pm

For me it was clear that elinux is only our hoster. I did some translation, but it realy takes time.

I agree with rmwebs, the wordpress forum is a pain in the a.. You can not read all thats been written here. It's all too busy with all those threads "were is my pi" and "my pi arrived" and well, kind of that. I hoped it would calm down a bit when the pis begin to ship, but it does not look like. I thought people new its a developer board, but now there are all these people unfamiliar with linux and the pi and only a few here are able to help. Those few can not do both things: helping here AND update the wiki. Well, I know of some ... like Meltwater. But thats a fulltime job, ah, sorry fullday job

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Re: Wiki - Information

Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:01 pm

stevepdp said:


but the point is that anything we create can be lifted off and shared in the same way.


I think the point is: the information is NOT in OUR wiki, but elsewere on the internet.

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Re: Wiki - Information

Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:38 pm

naicheben said:


stevepdp said:


but the point is that anything we create can be lifted off and shared in the same way.


I think the point is: the information is NOT in OUR wiki, but elsewere on the internet.


Sorry, I didn't mean start an argument.

Let me clarify what I imagined our group's wiki (which hasn't yet been built) would be.

I imagined our wiki would be a platform for group members to organize face to face meetings, have a personal profile area and share code dumps.

I would have advised that any research relating to the Raspberry Pi computer itself be written up at eLinux because it makes sense to do so.

Don't get me wrong... I would much prefer to write up our notes at eLinux if it's OK to do so. I've just avoided it up until now because I didn't think you would accept group-focused information like this.

AlexPT
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Re: Wiki - Information

Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:48 pm

Well.. It don't really mater where it is hosted.

Its more the "problem" to get it all in one place at last.

And if that don't start by now… we will end whit hundreds of links to hundreds of sites all spreed over the places.

And this will affect the forum, since people will repeat questions, just because that.

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Re: Wiki - Information

Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:41 pm

naicheben said:


I think the point is: the information is NOT in OUR wiki, but elsewere on the internet.


I think the point is, it IS YOUR wiki.  You don't need to wait for the "wiki maintainer" to move the document, or make the changes you want - just go ahead and create a login and start making the changes you want to see.

The more regular contributors there are to the wiki on eLinux, the better the information will be.

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Re: Wiki - Information

Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:29 pm

Thats it! We all have to work together to complete OUR wiki. So let's all work together and let's create a giant database of knowledge around this genious device.

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Re: Wiki - Information

Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:32 am

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

-- Benjamin Franklin

There's an anecdote typically related during leadership training in how to become a more nimble and proactive organization, like a startup company.  The story describes how someone with a problem having a monkey on their back, and if someone else comments on how the person should better treat the monkey, the second person winds up taking responsibility for care and feeding of the monkey.  The moral of the story is that, if you're going to complain about a problem, then it becomes your responsibility to help solve it.

Don't look now, but, there's a wiki monkey on all of our backs
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markb
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Re: Wiki - Information

Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:27 am

Michael said:


naicheben said:


I think the point is: the information is NOT in OUR wiki, but elsewere on the internet.


I think the point is, it IS YOUR wiki.  You don't need to wait for the "wiki maintainer" to move the document, or make the changes you want - just go ahead and create a login and start making the changes you want to see.

I understand your point, but the embedded linux wiki holds info on a lot of systems that are not relevant to the Rpi. Executing a search on, say, remote access, throws up a lot of results but nothing relating to the Rpi.

IMHO it would make sense to have a single wiki related to to the Rpi where people could be confident that all content would be relevant to a certain extent.


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meltwater
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Re: Wiki - Information

Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:58 am

I"m glad the wiki has been mentioned… here is my view point on it (no doubt not 100% correct, and just my outlook on it).

1) eLinux has allowed the foundation to use their wiki space, as far as anything else this makes it the official wiki, even if it isn"t living under a raspberry pi org address.

2) Yes, it is your wiki, you"ll get more out of it if you put stuff in and no single person can do it (not least since no single person will do everything everybody else will want to do).  If you have no place to put stuff, and are willing, then the wiki is as good a place as any for you to do it, and anyone is welcome to do so (this is why we"ve tried to make it easy to find a good place to put projects, info about your groups etc).

Also, just ask if you want to put something in and need some help…there will be someone who will be more than happy to do so.

3) Information will be spread around the internet (kinda how it works really)…there is no way around this, there are so many groups and individuals with their own interests and uses for the RPi that is would be unreasonable to expect them to all add what they are doing to the wiki.

All the wiki can do is be a starting point for people, hence the "hub" concept.  I feel it should be seen to be different from a library of information (sorry h2g2), but more an airport to find where you are going.

We can put information in there about the device and how to use it, but similarly we can also link to other great work which is going on elsewhere.  Even before release there are several very strong communities growing out there and I think that is great, the wiki can just provide a way to find these communities and hopefully a few shortcuts to some of the excellent information that is being generated (wherever it originates from).

Ideally, we can also save some effort by linking to things, rather than feeling the need to duplicate the same things over and over (that way we can look at new stuff and move faster going forward).  Also there are groups which are doing very detailed documentation (Frambozenier.org Documentation Project Datasheets for example), who will welcome help, plus the educational material which is in the works.

Hopefully the wiki can be the go to place to put your links to your blog or your project or group so that all the excellent content which does get produced, can be found and seen.  You are welcome to create your own space directly in the wiki too.

Similarly if you see anything good, then put some links in.

4) Finally…one big hurdle I have is without a RPi, there is not much more I can personally add yet.  Even the Easy GPIO guide is stalled by this, since I am reluctant to recommend hardware modding until I"ve physically tried it myself.  What I have done is speculative based on alternative hardware so far, but I"ve purposely avoided the more interesting/useful stuff until I can be sure I"m not just writing a "how to blow a raspberry guide".

If Eben thinks kids are getting excited about what colour the snake is in their program, try adding wheels and flashing lights to a rpi and see what happens!

Now some work…what areas need more detail in the wiki?

Currently the games section is lacking and I would love to see more links to blogs/projects which are encouraging kids to try things out.

I know a lot of us love the technical detail, but what things do people need when they open up that box, particularly any kids which are lucky enough to get one.

Finally…a shameless plug…if you want to write some useful stuff then also consider getting involved with the MagPi community magazine….http://www.themagpi.com/

Will be starting to look at content for issue 2 soon.

@naicheben thanks for the mention!

Note: When searching all the raspberry pi pages should be categorised as "RaspberryPi" so it"s not too hard (if we provided instructions…) to filter out anything else.
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AlexPT
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Re: Wiki - Information

Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:49 am

Good point meltwater

Linking things in our Wiki to the projects, information's, guides out there, its alsso very good.

No need to copy all into there, that work as good.

rmwebs
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Re: Wiki - Information

Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:08 am

? l ? x said:


Good point meltwater

Linking things in our Wiki to the projects, information's, guides out there, its alsso very good.

No need to copy all into there, that work as good.


Actually IMO any articles that can be copied to the wiki, must be copied to the wiki, with a link to the original.

Simply because you can guarantee that you'll link to a super helpful article, then the owners site will vanish and nobody can read that article.

By copying them onto the wiki, we can ensure that they will be available at all times.

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Re: Wiki - Information

Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:59 am

You can't just copy everything you  find on the internet willy nilly. Unless it's already in a place like a Wiki that has an open license, you need to ask permission.

rmwebs
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Re: Wiki - Information

Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:03 am

brkl said:


You can't just copy everything you  find on the internet willy nilly. Unless it's already in a place like a Wiki that has an open license, you need to ask permission.


Read my post again please. I said everything that can be, should be. E.g If its license permits.

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meltwater
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Re: Wiki - Information

Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:05 am

Except if you copy stuff you will need permissions, particularly since the wiki implies it's own usage terms, which the author may not agree with.  (you imply this with "any articles that can be", but not all will see like that).

You are right, it happens all the time, however there are problems with doing that too.  My point is, it will be an impossible task to clone the amount of information that will be generated by the vast number or users out there and keep it all up to date.  I know the same applies to links too, but at least it is a little quicker to correct links (or to have more than one source).

Hopefully the key information can be generated within the wiki itself, but things which are likely to change over time or be improved upon, are probably maintained by those who are doing it (if they are no longer doing it, then chances are there is a better way out there instead).

It is down to balance I guess.
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Re: Wiki - Information

Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:05 am

double post...
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chrowe
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Re: Wiki - Information

Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:23 pm

markb wrote: ...the embedded linux wiki holds info on a lot of systems that are not relevant to the Rpi. Executing a search on, say, remote access, throws up a lot of results but nothing relating to the Rpi.
This is the main Issue that I have run into. If we can solve this I think the elinux wiki might be fine. The other place where a Rpi specific wiki would be helpful is on google searches, so people can see the wiki results as being "official".
meltwater wrote: Note: When searching all the raspberry pi pages should be categorised as "RaspberryPi" so it"s not too hard (if we provided instructions…) to filter out anything else.
This is a great start. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Searching you should be able to add incategory:RaspberryPi to your search to limit results to pages in the RaspberryPi category but it does not seem to be working.

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Jim JKla
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Re: Wiki - Information

Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:55 pm

naicheben wrote:Those few can not do both things: helping here AND update the wiki
Are you telling me I can't do that or I shouldn't do that or you think I am incapable of doing that. :shock: ;)

I'm just seeking clarification ;)
Noob is not derogatory the noob is just the lower end of the noob--geek spectrum being a noob is just your first step towards being an uber-geek ;)

If you find a solution please post it in the wiki the forum dies too quick

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AndrewS
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Re: Wiki - Information

Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:44 pm

Jim JKla wrote:
naicheben wrote:Those few can not do both things: helping here AND update the wiki
Are you telling me I can't do that or I shouldn't do that or you think I am incapable of doing that. :shock: ;)
I'm going to assume that was a joke, but just in case... ;)
When I first started getting "into" the Raspi, I spent a lot of time creating/updating content on the Wiki. But since then I've spent much more time on the forums, and have done almost no wiki-editing - there are only a fixed number of hours in the day :P (which I believe is what naicheben was referring to).

But if you have enough time to both participate in the forums and update the Wiki, that's great! :D

EDIT: But going back to the original topic, I agree that it's a shame that so much great RasbberryPi-info is being spread out over diverse sites on the internet (personal blogs etc.), but there's obviously nothing that can be done about it, other than adding new links to the Wiki, e.g. on http://elinux.org/RPi_Community#Blogs.2FNews

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Re: Wiki - Information

Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:02 pm

AndrewS wrote:EDIT: But going back to the original topic, I agree that it's a shame that so much great RasbberryPi-info is being spread out over diverse sites on the internet (personal blogs etc.), but there's obviously nothing that can be done about it, other than adding new links to the Wiki, e.g. on http://elinux.org/RPi_Community#Blogs.2FNews
I think it's great that people are blogging about the Pi. I find the wiki hard to edit and hard to navigate. It's also difficult to find the info you are looking for. To write a detailed set of instructions with screenshots and maybe even video is a task I would not even consider doing on the Wiki. That's what blogs are for. When you invest significant time in something you need to have some control over it. (Well I do anyway :lol: )
Alex Eames RasPi.TV, RasP.iO

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AndrewS
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Re: Wiki - Information

Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:37 pm

...and the problem then becomes that the end-user has no way of knowing which of the (hundreds of?) different blogs to visit, to find the information they're looking for. To which the obvious solution is adding a link to http://elinux.org/RPi_Tutorials or http://elinux.org/RPi_Guides (no, I don't know the difference between a tutorial or a guide either!)

(or just hope that google eventually indexes your blog and places it high up the search results ;) )

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